395 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Bioware, you need to make a game where our choices matter! 
 
Bioware, you didn't tell me that choice was gonna matter! 

In Mass Effect 4, maybe you should lose the game if you order a pepperoni pizza

[KillTheLastRomantic]

I don't think it makes much sense.  Why should everything hang on these two minor decisions? 

 

 

I suppose I liked that, like in life, sometimes little things you say and do can have a major impact on someone without you realising. Obviously in a video game such situations are going to be far less complex, but it was nice to have at least some subtle things kind of sneak up and have unexpected consequences after making so many obvious, world changing choices. It would be a shame if her being hardened in DA:O didn't factor into her ultimate disposition, though. I think it was a plot flag in the keep. Do we know if that makes her easier/harder to persuade? Like if she's hardened you MUST fulfill those two requirements and if she's not then you only need the one.

[wright1978]

Yes...because it's not like the Inquisitor spends every waking moment running through other peoples territory like it's his own and taking whatever he likes..

 

If 4 soldiers came running into skyhold looting the chests and then Inquisition guards attacked them...would the inquisition soldiers be in the wrong?

 

The point is you don't give a flying **** about Leliana killing some random chantry sister when you've killed 400 people over the last month and Leliana has ordered the assassinations of 10 people in the last week. It's also not like she had no reason for doing what she did..

 

Indeed the Spymaster's just doing her job, killing someone who is part of a faction that is a threat.

You can disapprove just as companions are free to disapprove of your inquisitor's actions.

[Lianaar]

The only real problem I have with it is that there's no justifiable reason for making her spare that traitor in Haven.

Well, Josie says, that Cullen resembles a man with a hammer in hand, he tends to see nails everywhere.
I think Liliana is pretty much the same. You can -teach- her to not simply use the methods she finds easiest and is most accustemed to (normal response to any problem: kill it), but try to find other methods to reach the same ends. Capture the guy, obtain the papers, find out who he was in contact with, learn who the enemies are etc. Turn a situation to your advantage without murdering. Murder is a last resort for my inquisitor, who told her to not murder. But not for Leliana, for her it became so normal, she just applies it without thinking. Justinia had a huge say in it, no wonder her 'soul' was so upset about her failing. It is a character development. It was clearly visible, that Leliana is getting more and more sour/professional/utilitarist, and you had the means to stop it.

And as for 'mistakes' or decisions, the more time passed since the decision, the more it is built in everyday and the harder it is to undo.

[Cuthlan]

In Mass Effect 4, maybe you should lose the game if you order a pepperoni pizza

 

Excellent comparison. Letting a companion assassinate someone is as pedestrian as ordering pepperoni instead of sausage.

[Wulfram]

The Spymaster's job is not to kill random clergy who happen to disagree with the Inquisition. And her job includes doing what she is told.

[eternalshiva]

She didn't become a spy-master by adopting kittens and hugging everyone, she murders people, steals secrets and generally makes everything work in her favour. She's a bard, a trained killer and master of The Game.

 

Why are you shocked she killed a sister that was spying on the Inquisition and trying to get the Divine's secrets before she got to them? I keep her rutheless. I hardened her in DA:O and I keep her focused in DA:I. She knows her job and sofetning her up seems to do her a disservice, imo.

You killed for far less reasoning in the game, random NPCs. Seems obvious to me in the Mage Path that she's going to do what ever the heck she wants even if you tell her not to do something. Almost like foreshadowing

[Vormaerin]

It DOES seem like it was shoehorned in. She makes hundreds of decisions a week but THAT decision to not kill the dude who's endangering your campaign is the one that turns her?

 

Well... go figure.

 

Well, its a game.  They can't have every decision you guys actually talk about in the course of a year or whatever be reflected.  They give you three points that are expected to be representative of your character's overall behavior.   Favoring extra-judicial murder of a supposed traitor, being callous of the lives of your men, and giving a crap about the life of a Chantry spy. 

 

She's already super scary to everyone if you listen to the dialogue throughout the game.  Pulling her back from that path means consistently setting an example of minimizing loss of life (as best as the game allows).

 

You may think that killing someone she claims is a traitor and killing a chantry spy trying to steal Justinia's legacy are radically different.  But Leilana clearly doesn't and she's not going to accept any attempt by you to paint them differently.

[Wulfram]

Excellent comparison. Letting a companion assassinate someone is as pedestrian as ordering pepperoni instead of sausage.

Well, it's certainly more remarkable. Leliana and the Inquisition potentially assassinate a ton of people, but pizza consumption in Mass Effect isn't very common.

[Lianaar]

I would like to point out, that it was not a random clergy. It was a spy send in by a political bigshot.
One that was sent here specifically to deal with us. Seriously, I don't think in cold war spies survived such encounteres. So it is not that absurd to kill someone just because it is a spy. Didn't that man Josie killed attacked her with the attempt of murder merely for being present?

 

Also, if you disagree with that murder, it is your decision.
If she goes and kills her regardless, that is her decision.
It just shows that characters in the game have individual personality and are not puppets. She was pretty consistent.

[Tsunami Chef]

I would like to point out, that it was not a random clergy. It was a spy send in by a political bigshot.
One that was sent here specifically to deal with us. Seriously, I don't think in cold war spies survived such encounteres. So it is not that absurd to kill someone just because it is a spy. Didn't that man Josie killed attacked her with the attempt of murder merely for being present?

 

Also, if you disagree with that murder, it is your decision.
If she goes and kills her regardless, that is her decision.
It just shows that characters in the game have individual personality and are not puppets. She was pretty consistent.

Exactly what I'm thinking...what do you guys think any government/army does with foreign spies they catch? I'll tell you one thing..it's normally a lot more painful than just a quick death. Punishing Leliana for doing that would make no sense...and I'm fairly sure she would look at you like "wtf are you talking about?" if you tried to give her some speech after.

[Skymaple]

For me it makes perfect sense (I didn't know this was an option until I read it). Sometimes, things are like that. Choose the wrong option or say the wrong words once, and people can change. If someone has a bad idea and there's no one there to help that person think about the consecuences, prevent them from doing it... the consecuences could perfectly change them emotionally. It's your choice, and that's what we wanted in the game! And don't say it's hidden because it's not. That's why there're different dialogue options, right?

I don't remember exactly what I did, but she never got to kill the priest in the chantry... I told her to use the spy to our own benefit, and then I always tried to make her understand that things could be different, because I remembered the cuteness of DAO's Leliana, and I know she's been through tough stuff, but I wanted her to reach to that innocence again and be nice xD And I got it! Yey for Leliana as the new Divine!

[Wulfram]

In a situation like that, a competent intelligence agency would capture, interrogate (maybe torture if they're idiots and want some garbage intel) and then keep the agent around to trade for one of their own assets. They wouldn't kill them because that's purposeless. They certainly wouldn't kill them in front of a superior who has ordered to the contrary.

Also, if you disagree with that murder, it is your decision.
If she goes and kills her regardless, that is her decision.

And if you smile and nod and let her carry on her merry way after she's committed that murder?
 

It just shows that characters in the game have individual personality and are not puppets. She was pretty consistent.

She goes from doing things that are pragmatic to killing someone for no more than spite. That is not consistent.

[Ceoldoren]

Um... no it isnt.  In DA:O it was incredibly obvious.  You either encourage her to follow her beliefs or tell her that her old life as a bard was the better choice.  It was just 1 dialogue and it didn't depend on whether you killed Marjoline or let her live.

 

Same with Alistair.  It was incredibly obvious.  You either tell him life sucks and he should learn to deal with it, or coddle his emotions.  No other choices impacted his hardening/softening.

Well, I mean. There were other things that could harden Alistair. If you know what I mean.

 

[Solo Rogue One]

I had no idea of any of it...I just remember her from Origins. I thought she had a hard time as the left hand now so I tried to tell her to not kill the traitor as I knew it would kill her inside, little by little and I didn't want to see that happen to her. I am glad I chose that option then. She is not naive anymore but she needed to find her way back to where her heart is, imo. My first playthru is always how I would handle things based on who I am as a person before I get feedback about what does what from the forums. That is why I labeled it "true play" in dragon keep

[ZipZap2000]

It seems you have to both let the traitor live in Haven, as well as tell Leliana that she did the right thing in pulling her spies back after the Elder One attacked - that the inquisition's people are not expendable. This will get you the opportunity to successfully talk her down from killing the sister at the end of the game. 

 

This. She specifically mentions the second conversation and quotes you if you took the "They're soldiers" option. 

 

"You said whatever takes, remember?" 

[Lianaar]

 

She goes from doing things that are pragmatic to killing someone for no more than spite. That is not consistent.

She goes into killing people without as much as thinking about other solutions. That is consistent. She doesn't ask any more if there are other ways, the Game sucks her in.

[Wulfram]

But murdering Natalie isn't the solution to anything.

[wright1978]

But murdering Natalie isn't the solution to anything.

 

Of course it is.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

 

She goes from doing things that are pragmatic to killing someone for no more than spite. That is not consistent.

 

That seems to stem from the fact that it's concerning Justinia and her legacy. Leliana is pretty unstable about the whole affair throughout the game.

[LadyJaneGrey]

In most of her personal conversations Leliana struck me as on edge and unstable, and I tried to avoid becoming a target.  When the option to support her for Divine came up, I actually laughed.  I don't dislike her or the writing, but no way on earth am I putting her as head of Thedas' main religion.

[_Motoki_]

I think I told her to spare the traitor (hey it's been a while)

Pretty sure I told her the scouts dying wasn't her fault.

Definitely told her not to kill Natalie and she listened.

 

First time around at the end of that Justinia's gift quest she still got really dark and scary. It really creeped me out so I savescummed back and manged to fix it.

 

Turns out the one last thing that pushed her over the edge one way or another for me was what I said to her about what was in the box and what Justinia turned her into.

 

If I picked the 'it wasn't your fault' option she went crazy serial killer dark. Like she interpreted it as she's just a killer and that's what she is and she has to accept it; Justinia didn't make her into that.

 

If I picked the other option she seemed to interpret it that Justinia wrongly pushed her into that direction (hence her/the spirit's apology) and she was starting to lose her humanity and compassion so she made a choice to get it back and starts getting really bright and holy and quoting scripture.

 

It was a very dramatic difference from just one line.

 

Anyway, just wanted to point out that what you tell her after the kill/don't kill the spying sister choice regarding Justinia's box and her role as left hand definitely does matter, and that saying it wasn't her fault may not get you the outcome you think.

[Wulfram]

Of course it is.

To what?

[wright1978]

To what?

 

It's part of a solution to dealing with enemy sects within the chantry, as evidenced by the epilogue slide.

[AlexMBrennan]

[spoiler]In a situation like that, a competent intelligence agency would capture, interrogate (maybe torture if they're idiots and want some garbage intel) and then keep the agent around to trade for one of their own assets. They wouldn't kill them because that's purposeless. They certainly wouldn't kill them in front of a superior who has ordered to the contrary.[/quote]
Historically there have been plenty of tortuously slow means of execution - e.g. Crucifixion, so that wouldn't have been out of place.

But I guess the only acceptable way of interrogation in bioware games is to kill the only person who has the information you seek.