395 réponses à ce sujet

[azanimefan]

So like the first time I talked to Leliana I told her to kill the traitor. I later told her we are better then Cory. Then at the Temple I tell her not to kill the girl. But she still kills her and says I told her to be a jerk and goes all dark. Sheesh.

 

nope.  that's not what made her a hardass.  the damage was done in DA:O.  this game imports the Marjalane decision and lilly hardening/softening from Origins.  She was already a psychopath if you made her one in Origins.  She can go more ruthless yet in this game if you keep feeding that side (I did) resulting in her seizing the seat of the divine and ruling over a "Blood stained chantry" where she silences critics and exterminates challenges to her "radical rule"... i suspect it might be possible to dull the sharp edge of her character if you chose all lovey-dovey choices but i doubt it.  

 

She's a dreamer or a psycho, and it's set in DA:O and imported into this game.  

 

 

~sidenote: I'd like to know if the mage ending changes based on your choices.  The choices i made created a college of magi, and mages being accepted throughout the land as friends of the people, with no harm seen.  Of course i used Tranquility as a punishment, which makes me wonder, had i been lenient with renegade mages, or simply executed them, would the mages have gone wild?

 

it's an interesting thought.  

 

of course i don't know, maybe just siding with the mages and promising them to not put them back into the circles was all that was needed for that ending.  

[Wulfram]

No the decisions in previous games have no effect on this. It's all on those two dialogues

And hardened Leliana in DA:O was still big on mercy and redemption, anyway.

(As it turned out my soft import leliana went hard and my hard went soft)

[Deviana]

The way I saw it from the very first conversation with Leliana, she addresses you with a bitter tone asking what is it that the Maker wants, as some people already view you as a Herald. To me it seemed that she is grasping at the last straw of her faith, already almost fully believing that the Maker either does not exist or is ruthless and uncaring. Then the traitor conversation comes up and if you tell her to stop the killing and add that right now is precisely the time to build ideals, she is taken aback. She doesn't listen to you because you are a leader ( you really aren't at that point), she listens to you because as she says " you obviously feel strongly about it".  So in her eyes, there is this unknown person, who just might be really sent by the Maker and who is promoting compassion and peace even in the time of crisis and that is enough to plant the seeds of hope.  And as you continue supporting that path later on in your conversations with her, she starts softening up. So yes, that first little decision of sparing the traitor really is like a small miracle for her. 

[MoonDrummer]

Ordering the execution of a traitor who has killed other agents and is working to sell out even more is not the same as killing a chantry sister in cold blood because you found out she's spying for someone else.

Executing the traitor in Haven was the right choice. Letting him live for no reason makes you an indecisive and weak leader.

And now I have to make a decision I personally disagree with, because if I don't leliana turns into judge dredd and guns nuns down like they are clay pigeons.

[DuckTheSecond]

I saw some people say that not letting her kill Butler is giving him a free pass for treason. But I interpreted it as apprehending him alive instead of blindly kill him.Shame we don't know what actually happens later with him.

 

Anyway, I think it's obvious that when you encourage or let her blindly kill him, she doesn't get any more merciful. I do agree though that if you chose to remain silent, being a more neutral approach should have allowed her to soften later in the game by saying the right things (e.g. with the scout situation).

[Zombie_Alexis]

I'm starting my second play through and I am so glad I found this thread. I didn't realize what I had done to make Leliana so freaking terrifying. I'll try to soften her up this time. Maybe she won't be so fanatical this time around and I might actually consider supporting her bid to become Divine.

[Azrae]

I'm admittedly a bit confused by this traitor choice that everyone is mentioning.  I spoke to Leliana frequently in Haven and never did such a dialogue or choice ever pop up.  Even now in Skyhold, the first real decision I came across with her was the bit about how the lives of the Inquisition soldiers aren't expendable.  I've played through the game twice now (this is my third time through it) the first time an apparently hardened Leliana became Divine and I was appauled by the ending.  Last time through, Cassandra became Divine (I think she wasn't hardened..?) and I wasn't overly pleased either.  I'd like to try to keep Leliana softened this time around, but now I'm worried because I never was giving the initial option to kill the traitor or not.

[darlarosa]

To me everyone here is making a fair point. Yet something about it feels so inauthentic to me. I love that she's changed I do. But it feels like there should then be a choice to confront her on it, particularly since, well, she works for you. These details are important, but that first choice was I don't know I didn't think it'd have that kind fo consequence. It feels like thats too much power. I honestly think it would flow more smoothly and hence be more believable if it functioned based not on only those choice but other interactions with her or how much you let her act ruthlessly. It just feels really insincere for missing that one instance to ahve such an impact. I  appreciate it on a certain level, but because we can't call Leliana out properly on her actions after the quest or question her about it...it just doesn't feel real. I don't care if we can't change her mind on her actions, but I feel like her entire ruthless responses warrants a far bigger action than the conversation. She's running your spy ops and we should have some say in it. Every quest, dialogue, etc. felt natural to me...except for the one in the chantry and in skyhold's rookery. 

[Azrae]

But it feels like there should then be a choice to confront her on it, particularly since, well, she works for you.

 

I really agree with this point.  I was replaying Origins while I waited for Inquisition to come out, and the difference between Leliana there and the Leliana in Inquisition is astonishing to me, even after I imported my Keep with an unhardened Leliana from Origins.  Some of her responses in Inquisition I feel warrant some type of reaction from the Inquisitor questioning why she's responding the way that she is, or checking her a bit in regards to her attitude/how she's tackling things.

[Lianaar]

Leliana changed due to Justinia and how she (ab)used her.
Just the way you influenced her, someone else did for quite a bit too, and that was a leader who was very pragmatic and at times even ruthless. She used Leliana not as a hand, but as a knife. It took a huge toll on her.

NO, you and your characters are not the only ones affecting her. But you have your own sway in it. There is still the old Leliana in her, and if you manage to sway her in a given direction, she'll thank you. But it doesn't mean, you are the only one deciding for her.

There is a lot of complaints in the forum that the world is not feeling alive, for people don't have a life out of your presence. Well, they do. LIke shown in Leliana. Or other characters for that matter.

[MadMaximoff]

I'm starting my second play through and I am so glad I found this thread. I didn't realize what I had done to make Leliana so freaking terrifying. I'll try to soften her up this time. Maybe she won't be so fanatical this time around and I might actually consider supporting her bid to become Divine.

 

Same reason I wouldn't make her Divine, completely insane and dangerous.

 

In fact I told her I wouldn't support her and she said "Well it doesn't matter what you think, because you won't be voting"

 

Yeah, I can see my Inquisitor having to have a quiet word with the crows at some point in the future.

[Obadiah]

Well, at least I know what to try next time. When she murdered the sister and kidnapped the kid afterwards, I was like, "Holy..."

 

The weird part is that on a War Table mission afterwards her option is to "lead the Varghests to a new home where they can live" while Cullen just wants to kill them. So now I have a murderous ruthless animal rights activist on my staff!

 

Maybe I'll just reload the game from before I do her quest, and leave it undone.

[hellbiter88]

Ahh.. yeah. This is sneaky, sneaky. I finally found this out in the end of my second playthrough. It's all good though, I think bloodthirsty Leliana is kinda sexy.

[Myusha123]

I think it's the whole fact that Butler is an agent. A traitor. At the very start of the Inquisition. Undermining everything they're trying to accomplish, having no physical presence, and otherwise having no overall presence.  He's a negative. Keeping him alive implies consequences, the cost to feed him, the fact he might escape. Add that interrogation could only go so far and he has alot of info as Leliana's best spy. You might WANT to kill him to save lives and to send a message to all traitors.

The fact this 'straw' breaks the Camel's back is annoying. If you could kill Butler but express how sad it was to do so, and it softened Leliana. Then I'd be glad. Because this didn't come across as a moral decision to determine whether Leliana is a murder machine or saint too directly. Came off as, Leliana's gonna kill this guy, is your character going to take a moral stand here, or do they believe traitors deserve punishment/death?

[Myusha123]

Well, at least I know what to try next time. When she murdered the sister and kidnapped the kid afterwards, I was like, "Holy..."

 

The weird part is that on a War Table mission afterwards her option is to "lead the Varghests to a new home where they can live" while Cullen just wants to kill them. So now I have a murderous ruthless animal rights activist on my staff!

 

Maybe I'll just reload the game from before I do her quest, and leave it undone.

If she becomes Divine she basically fucks it allll up if you leave it undone. 

[Lucky Thirteen]

No the decisions in previous games have no effect on this. It's all on those two dialogues

And hardened Leliana in DA:O was still big on mercy and redemption, anyway.

(As it turned out my soft import leliana went hard and my hard went soft)

 

Really who came up with the hard and soft terminology, because every time I see it used in dragon age forums I crack up.

 

 

I'm really surprised to hear that because I didn't say anything at all in the very beginning of the game that Leliana got so bloodthirsty. I mean I had a feeling, but I mostly thought Bioware was trying to be edgy here because I feel like there were a few other times I countered that behavior. I was playing in the direction that my Inquisitor developed from big meanie to big softie. Oh well. Nice to have a little something that I have little control over. As hilariously dramatic as it was. (Seriously, as soon as that woman appeared on my screen I thought, "just the three of us, focused, isolated, random, minimal looking scene.... Leliana is about to kill her isn't she.")

[Vikarus]

Bioware has never been particularly good at character development when it comes to "turning points" for characters being "hardened" or "softened." I mean, with Alistair, if we wanted him to be tougher, we had to basically yell, "You don't have friends, Alistair! Get over it!" Immediately after he discovers his supposed sister is a shrew. There are plenty of reasons to kill the traitor in the beginning of the game (He's a traitor, for one) and not kill the chantry sister. I just chalk the whole thing up to Leliana being insane with a complete disregard for your authority as the Inquisitor.

[Fardreamer]

Bioware has never been particularly good at character development when it comes to "turning points" for characters being "hardened" or "softened." I mean, with Alistair, if we wanted him to be tougher, we had to basically yell, "You don't have friends, Alistair! Get over it!" Immediately after he discovers his supposed sister is a shrew. There are plenty of reasons to kill the traitor in the beginning of the game (He's a traitor, for one) and not kill the chantry sister. I just chalk the whole thing up to Leliana being insane with a complete disregard for your authority as the Inquisitor.

 

Lol, I don't really remember Alistair's hardening being quite like that.  I basically told him that people can be jerks, that's just how life is.  Life isn't fair, blah blah blah. 

[Obadiah]

Just remembered that Leliana's big fear in DAO after fighting Marjolaine was that she would become just like her, and here we are, Marjolaine squared.

[Lianaar]

Maybe it is the perception that is different. People expect Leliana is normal and with that first answer you make her evil.
But the thing is, she is screwed up, she was an assassin for so long after the Blight, that she totally lost her touch with morally right and wrong. So if you do nothing, she won't change from being scary and spooky.

You have the option to
- not deal with her - she goes on the path she already chose to walk
- confirm she is doing well - she goes on the path faster, she already chose to walk

- drag her off her chosen path - it takes some time for her to see how bad she is

 

Why she is the way she is?
- the divine, the oh so great wonderful beloved used her as no other for murdering her opponents. She was a tough player and it was probably way too easy to use Leliana with statements like 'This is for the Chantry', 'They strayed from the path of the Maker' or 'you are a good friend and they seek my death' etc. After a while people just get accustomed to what they do and the sense of 'normal' tweaks.
- her mentor, friend and someone she thought is in favor of the Maker just died in a rather nasty way. Alas she is in the middle of a serious faith crisis. Not the best to make people balanced and reasonable.

- the only thing remaining are her agents and her job. She is quite sure in it and endorses the tasks, but it again tweaks her perception.

- she was boss for too long, often bosses forget that they are not always right. It is not Leliana's approach that is scarce, but Cassandra's self-reflection that is rare.

 

I think it is quite natural that she "chose the dark side", that is exactly what made her so effective. So while you have utterly reasonable explanation why you chose to get the traitor silenced and killed, it is utterly reasonable why she took it as a confirmation and went further down with it.

It is not your decision that makes her dark. It is your deliberate action and effort that can make her less dark.

[darlarosa]

But that's not the issue. I agree with everything you are saying. My problem is just the whole...big reveal of how "dark" she is now feels...fake. The dialogue isn't convincing, but putting that aside I feel as though as the leader of the inquisition there's nothing you can do to direct her actions or say "No, Leliana, I disapprove." I'd be fine if she defended it by saying "this is whats necessary" But she doesn't even convey that in current dialogue. Further it doesn't fully feel...real if you aren't taking ruthless actions, unless there is a scene where you discover that because you didn't make those pivitol calls that despite taking the peaceful route she has been doing awful things. Something just doesn't feel right about it, and it's not because her becoming an "any means necessary" woman is bad. No it's a great change and it shows you how much the years have taken their toll, but how she justifies it and the lack of calling her out feels...wrong.

Personally, I love that she basically says "I CHOSE to serve her. I chose to do these things and I'm not burdened by them like most people would be." However, without the ability for the supposed leader to say "No, You. Work. For. Me."....it doesn't have the conflict it needs. If you listen to the voice actress you can tell even she senses the need for conflict, but it doesn't happen.

[Radan]

The dialogue wheel goes into this special yellow mode thing when something you can say is a choice and important. You gotta look out for them and think about the consequences.

[darlarosa]

That early in the game I'd say I didn't notice that at the time

[Lianaar]

Personally, I love that she basically says "I CHOSE to serve her. I chose to do these things and I'm not burdened by them like most people would be." However, without the ability for the supposed leader to say "No, You. Work. For. Me."....it doesn't have the conflict it needs. If you listen to the voice actress you can tell even she senses the need for conflict, but it doesn't happen.

IMHO the Inquisition was made by Cassandra and Leliana. Everyone else was brought in and convinced by those two. The two girls basically crawled this institute together with fingers and nails. It is their baby, even if they push you into the lead position and decide you are to be the face of it. And as a character you can decide if you lead or remain a pawn. But questioning Liliana's power within the inquisition and saying she works for you is a bit controversial for me.

 

She doesn't work for you, especially in the beggining you work for her! Yes, she agrees to listen, but her people are loyal to her, not you, they have been working with her for ages, and you are just a new comer that is bossing people around.

 

Yes, she is arrogant, she is used to being in power, she is used to not being questions, she is used to making the decisions and the calls. But that is exactly her story. There is a reason for her to be like this, and there is a reason she is not just being pushed away, but needs to be convinced. Giving her the order of: don't you dare, won't do it. She decides not to do it that way, because you feel strongly about it and she doesn't feel that strongly about it, so she does you a favor.

 

Have you never seen how power and being always 'in the right' changes people's mind sets?
Of course, this is just an opinion and since I loved this part in the game, I admit, this being opinionated.

[Shahadem]

Sometimes, little decisions matter. You should've been on top of it. That earlier choice was a chance to "soften" Leliana if you will. Think of the chances to "harden" a companion back in DAO, but reverse.

 

Because a single action is going to drastically change someone's personality? How many other people has she caused for similar offenses before and after that moment?

 

And what made it make even less sense is that Leiliana was already "softened" as a result of the sum of all her conversations and actions during her time with the Hero of Ferelden. So it didn't make any sense as to why she decided to become an assassin when DA:O was over.