395 réponses à ce sujet

[BioWareM0d13]

Maybe it is the perception that is different. People expect Leliana is normal and with that first answer you make her evil.
But the thing is, she is screwed up, she was an assassin for so long after the Blight, that she totally lost her touch with morally right and wrong. So if you do nothing, she won't change from being scary and spooky.
dark.

 

Actually Leliana was an assassin before the Blight as well. Other than a short and failed stint at playing Chantry nun, assassin and spy are really the only jobs Leliana has ever held. Bards in Orlais fill both roles, and they don't seem to have much in the way of a moral code to guide them. They in many ways do the dirty work of nobles playing the Great Game. She was doing morally questionable things long before you meet her in Origins.

 

It's that background, along with her later found piety, that makes her perfectly suited to being the Left Hand of the Divine. She's experienced at spycraft and assassination, and is no stranger to ruthlessness.

[Wulfram]

If hardened Leliana came across as ruthless rather than crazy, I'd have less problem with it.

[Lianaar]

Because a single action is going to drastically change someone's personality? How many other people has she caused for similar offenses before and after that moment?

Yes, a single occasion when someone questions your 'normal' can go a long way. Not instantly,  but it can start someone thinking about evident being not that evident.

An evident solution to problems is to kill someone. If someone says, that is not the solution and there are other ways, maybe you'll not do differently at first, maybe you'll even react annoyed, frustrated, but it can make someone think, that maybe what she percieved that normal is not actually normal.

She still might kill the guy when they meet, or maybe if he was there right then, she would have killed him despite us saying, she should not. But there was a distance in time.

There are a lot of cases in history and personal life of people where a single sentance made a difference.

 

ANd again, you don't make her ruthless. She already is ruthless, and you can try to make her less so. Being that obssessed and crazy (She believed the maker is speaking to her directly? That isn't actually considered normal either. It shows she is quite prone to being obsessed with her thruth) is part of her personality, it is just tipped the other way, but the base which makes it possible is the same.

 

I do like Leliana, but she always had issues. Considering her life, it is not surprising. SHe has a sweet side to her, but the game always left it up to you to decide which of her faces is real and which is facade.

[Azrae]

I'm still really confused by this traitor that people mention right off the bat in the game in Haven.  I literally never encountered an option regarding a traitor or anyone named Butler, even, and I spoke to her frequently while I was in Haven.  Can someone tell me how to do this so that I don't screw it up the next time I start a new game?

 

I really don't like hardened Leliana, but it's mostly because her complete disregard for her actions and how ruthless she suddenly is after her personal quest to find what Justina left her..it just doesn't sit well with me.  When I hear her basically ordering the kidnapping of some kid just to get back at a woman that wants to challenge the Inquisition's authority, it made my stomach churn a bit.  I'm also playing through Origins and all the DLC that comes with it as I'm playing Inquitision as well (this playthrough, anyway) and I'm still having a very hard time thinking of them as the same person.

[BioWareM0d13]

I'm still really confused by this traitor that people mention right off the bat in the game in Haven.  I literally never encountered an option regarding a traitor or anyone named Butler, even, and I spoke to her frequently while I was in Haven.  Can someone tell me how to do this so that I don't screw it up the next time I start a new game?

 

 

You just need to talk to Leliana in the camp at Haven as far as I can recall.

 

She'll be talking with an Inquisition agent and you'll overhear her discussing a turncoat with the agent. If you then click on her to engage in dialogue after overhearing that bit, she'll go into further discussion with the agent and order his murder. You can then either remain silent and allow her to do what she wants, voice support for killing the the traitor, or voice dissent for her ordering the assassination. 

 

Any option except the "Wait a minute..don't kill him" option results in her becoming more ruthless.

[Azrae]

You just need to talk to Leliana in the camp at Haven as far as I can recall.

 

She'll be talking with an Inquisition agent and you'll overhear her discussing a turncoat with the agent. If you then click on her to engage in dialogue after overhearing that bit, she'll go into further discussion with the agent and order his murder. You can then either remain silent and allow her to do what she wants, voice support for killing the the traitor, or voice dissent for her ordering the assassination. 

 

Any option except the "Wait a minute..don't kill him" option results in her becoming more ruthless.

I guess I'm really going to have to pay close attention to this the next time around.  I basically spoke to her until there were no more chat options left by the time Haven gets destroyed, and I still can't remember this scene at all.  Thanks for the information, though, I'll keep an eye out on my next playthrough.

[BioWareM0d13]

I guess I'm really going to have to pay close attention to this the next time around.  I basically spoke to her until there were no more chat options left by the time Haven gets destroyed, and I still can't remember this scene at all.  Thanks for the information, though, I'll keep an eye out on my next playthrough.

 

Someone has a youtube vid up of it with both options:

 

Spoiler

[Wulfram]

I'd guess that it's pretty possible to just not notice the talking going on in the background, particularly if the Cullen/Roderick thing is happening simultaneously

[LPPrince]

Because a single action is going to drastically change someone's personality? How many other people has she caused for similar offenses before and after that moment?

 

And what made it make even less sense is that Leiliana was already "softened" as a result of the sum of all her conversations and actions during her time with the Hero of Ferelden. So it didn't make any sense as to why she decided to become an assassin when DA:O was over.

 

Years had passed. Many years. All bets are off when that much time has gone by, and one choice absolutely can have that much of an effect on someone, especially in a vulnerable state like she was in at the time.

[frankf43]

I did that too.

 

The only things that might be what caused it on mine I think is because I hardened her in DAO (if keep takes that into account even) plus on her chantry scene I did not tell her to stop right away in first set of options and picked the sarcastic comment about Leliana seeing through the lies, the second chance when she was actually about to kill her I told her to stop but she turned on me. Every other choice I did right based on what people have said in this thread. Or maybe like said might have been glitched on mine perhaps.

Hardened or not hardened is not an option in the Keep as far as I can see so that would have had no impact.

[BubbleDncr]

Leliana "hardening" in my first playthrough kind of shows how my own character evolved over the course of the game.

 

I told her not to kill the traitor in the beginning. Gave her a big speech about how we needed to be better than our enemies.

But then after the Warden quest, I made what's his name Tranquil for his punishment - which apparantly they consider the most hard-core choice.

After that, I let Leliana kill the nun.

 

And then I ended up with the scariest Divine in the world. Was a shock to my Inquisitor, but made me realize how much I changed from my own morals at the beginning of the game.

[ManiacG]

tbh they should have made it so you can at least soften her with 2 out of 3, the one choice at the start (wich i thought was the correct call) should not determine her alignment right of the bat.

[Mushashi7]

The decision regarding Leliana has influence wheater you want her softened or hardened. This again gives you options for the choice of the new divine.
Your options later depends on what you chose. Killing the traitor (or not) is a part of this.

[Allaiya]

Woah, so killing the traitor at the beginning makes Leliana crazy ruthless at the end? Well... s***.

[Lianaar]

Woah, so killing the traitor at the beginning makes Leliana crazy ruthless at the end? Well... s***.

Nah, she is already ruthless and crazy, but saving the traitor's life can save Leliana

[Kreidian]

The thing I don't enjoy is how extremely binary the decisions and outcomes end up being. It only takes a single moment where you decide to take the more brutal choice for Leliana to go completely psycho. Doesn't matter how much you keep pushing her to reign in the cray, any single moment where you make that hard decision is all the excuse she needs to go completely ruthless. That sort of restriction just feels stupid.

 

There are very good reasons to kill the traitor at the beginning of the game. HE'S A TRAITOR. He's killed one of our own, and he's a huge threat to the fledging Inquisition. That doesn't mean you don't care. That doesn't mean that killing people is the best solution all the time. That doesn't mean that under different circumstances things would be different. 

 

But no matter how much you push Leliana to understand this, she still chooses to go full crazy at the end. 

 

It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't so extreme. After all I like Leliana to be a little ruthless. This isn't some chantry bake sale we're running here, this is the full on Inquisition. We have a lot of power and as such we have a lot of enemies, especially towards the end of the game when you do Leliana's quest. People will eat us alive if we're too soft. We need a spymaster who can make these ruthless decisions if we need to. Let's face it, that's part of what made Leliana so effective. But you can still be willing to look at other less brutal options when the opportunity arises. That's not even in the same ballpark as the deep end crazy ruthlessness where they take Leliana at the end, all for daring to suggest that maybe killing an enemy who has proven they're wiling to kill us is maybe not a bad thing.

 

A bit more middle ground would have been nice.

[Obadiah]

Would Nathalie have killed us if given the chance? Seemed like she was there more for intelligence.

[keyip]

Am I the only one who doesn't mind crazy, ruthless, Leliana?

[BioWareM0d13]

Am I the only one who doesn't mind crazy, ruthless, Leliana?

 

I like the ruthless version more.

[Patchwork]

It would have been better if Natalie was the tie breaker if you had points in both columns. It's easy to miss the Haven and once you have a point in Hardened Leliana that's it you can't get the non crazy version no matter what you say or do.   

[Obadiah]

Well I got lucky. Cassandra became Divine and hardened Leliana seemed, uh, ok with it . Hopefully she'll go hook up with her Warden love and not start an underground insurgency.

[Jenny Ketch]

The thing I don't enjoy is how extremely binary the decisions and outcomes end up being. It only takes a single moment where you decide to take the more brutal choice for Leliana to go completely psycho. Doesn't matter how much you keep pushing her to reign in the cray, any single moment where you make that hard decision is all the excuse she needs to go completely ruthless. That sort of restriction just feels stupid.

 

Exactly. I'd expect something that dramatic to be, well, dramatic, like your choice of what to say to her at the Chantry, or for there to be a pattern of pushing her in one direction or the other. The Haven conversation takes place when everybody is still a little wary of you, not really sure who you are or whether you're a good guy, and you are definitely not large and in charge like you are in Skyhold.

 

It felt to me a lot like the old text adventure games where it was possible to get stuck in an unwinnable state because of some arbitrary thing you didn't know you were supposed to do fifty moves ago. ("Oh, you were supposed to click your heels together three times and then peel the garlic clove before you went through the Ominous Door, because after you go through it turns out to be one-way. Yeah, I know there was no in-game hint. Just restart.")

[satunnainen]

People wanted important decisions, they got some. I think it was quite funny when she went suddenly dark side in my first playthrough, and no help from walkthroughs or other metagaming tricks. Then she became the new divine, again no idea why exactly

 

Next time ill try to soften her a bit and see what happens. 

[Taura-Tierno]

The thing I don't enjoy is how extremely binary the decisions and outcomes end up being. It only takes a single moment where you decide to take the more brutal choice for Leliana to go completely psycho. Doesn't matter how much you keep pushing her to reign in the cray, any single moment where you make that hard decision is all the excuse she needs to go completely ruthless. That sort of restriction just feels stupid.

 

There are very good reasons to kill the traitor at the beginning of the game. HE'S A TRAITOR. He's killed one of our own, and he's a huge threat to the fledging Inquisition. That doesn't mean you don't care. That doesn't mean that killing people is the best solution all the time. That doesn't mean that under different circumstances things would be different. 

 

But no matter how much you push Leliana to understand this, she still chooses to go full crazy at the end. 

 

It wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't so extreme. After all I like Leliana to be a little ruthless. This isn't some chantry bake sale we're running here, this is the full on Inquisition. We have a lot of power and as such we have a lot of enemies, especially towards the end of the game when you do Leliana's quest. People will eat us alive if we're too soft. We need a spymaster who can make these ruthless decisions if we need to. Let's face it, that's part of what made Leliana so effective. But you can still be willing to look at other less brutal options when the opportunity arises. That's not even in the same ballpark as the deep end crazy ruthlessness where they take Leliana at the end, all for daring to suggest that maybe killing an enemy who has proven they're wiling to kill us is maybe not a bad thing.

 

A bit more middle ground would have been nice.

But it's not the Inquisitor putting "hardening" Leliana or putting her on that path. She's already there, deep inside the ruthless ways of assassination and doing the dirty work nobody else wants to do. The only way to get her out of it is by continuously urging her to not to take such actions. One step more, though, and she's just over the edge. She already is cray, it's up to you to work hard to pull her out of it.

It should be seen as a challenge to influence her in a positive direction, not as an option to choose her direction with a single choice of dialogue. 

[Jeremy Ray]

I didn't have a problem sparing the traitor cause I agreed that killing him was a waste. He is more valuable alive.

Figured she could waterboard some valuable information out of him, go figure that's the soft option.