395 réponses à ce sujet

[Mahumia]

The 'issue' I have with the traitor-story is that your character has basically no knowledge about Leliana at that point, and is still a nobody who is technically still (sort of) a prisoner. So far, I have chosen to stay out of it, as I thought this to be the most in character option. Sure, I know her backstory, but not my character, and I don't like metagaming.

 

I would prefer to have more options for softening her, instead of only choosing the right option 3/3/. Why can't you express your opinion on the matter, or let your own ways of dealing with prisoners be of influence, for example? I thought it was frustrating to have her just kill the nun, whilst I told her not to, only because I 'just' picked 2/3 of the 'softening' options. If that is just her character? Sure, that's fine. But finding out that it could have been different irked me a bit. Nonetheless: I like seeing that your actions matter.

[robertthebard]

BSN: Our choices don't matter.

BSN: RAGE, my choice mattered.

BioWare: WTF???

[Dark Helmet]

I for one am fine with her going all stab crazy. Finally showing the world the truth of what I have been saying for years.

 

Bard be cray.

[lastpawn]

So, I just found out that the outcome of Leilana killing an unarmed, amateur spy in cold blood is due to my Inquisitor not interfering with her decision to kill an agent of hers who turned (Say Nothing option).

 

Wow. Just wow.

 

No, that makes perfect sense. Because murdering unarmed nuns and murdering double agents is the same thing. The only conclusion from this is that Leilana is insane, as far as I can tell. And I don't get to call her out on it!? Really, no "What the hell is wrong with you?" dialogue option?

 

To those who think that this is choice and consequence, I'd recommend this video 

 

 

Choices and consequences are great, when they make sense. The whole outcome here makes almost as much sense as Mordin getting a rocket in the face at the end of ME2 because you didn't complete his loyalty mission... because loyalty and dodging a stray rocket are obviously connected.

[vometia]

The 'issue' I have with the traitor-story is that your character has basically no knowledge about Leliana at that point, and is still a nobody who is technically still (sort of) a prisoner. So far, I have chosen to stay out of it, as I thought this to be the most in character option. Sure, I know her backstory, but not my character, and I don't like metagaming.

Yeah, same here. Staying silent seemed the most appropriate choice at that early stage of the game whatever my character may have thought privately. Choices and consequences are good, as long as it's not a contrived trap for you to walk straight into.

[Basement Cat]

Leliana has always been prone to influence by other people. Looking back on this part, I think it was an opportunity for the PC to assert their leadership skills. The four leading the Inquisition at the start are Cassandra, Cullen, Josephine and Leliana. They are the ones who choose us to be Inquisitor later on and we get a chance to 'impress' each of them in the prologue through recruiting agents or being decisive (we can say very early which side we want to support). The game eventually forces a choice on us, but it's certainly possible to play the leader before we officially become it.

 

That bit with Leliana's agent? We can choose to support or oppose her choice or stay silent. I prefer to intervene one way or another. It makes the PC more proactive.

[Scerene]

ugh as some other people have mentioned the process of softening her is beyond idiotic. First we need to tell her not to kill a traitor who betrayed them, had many people killed, and likely to have even more. It makes sense if we could interrogate him, an option the game pretends to give us, only to come across like a gullible fool after the second prompt where we have a bunch of options between telling her ideals are important, you should always like what you do, and if you dont its not right    to our spymaster can do better .

 

See the thing about our men not being expendable? they are no more expendable then we are. I mean our inq has been in far more danger anybody else , yet we are the ones doing the heavy work and putting ourselves in harms way, even more so than our troops, so i told her, that yes, our men know the risks, because we -all- do. Cassandra, leli and cullen have sacrificed a lot to make the inquisition happen, and before that were warriors risking their lives on a daily basis. All of our companions were involved in  danger, and considered "expendable" even before they were part of the inqusition. Then killing that cow of a chantry sister makes perfect sense, as she tried to lure us into a trap, lied to leliana who was a friend to her once, and then was going to run of to report her findings if you let her go. The game doesnt even give you the option to capture and interrogate her which tbh would make the most sense. I just find playing a damn gullible idiot to soften Leli too much tbh, and im pretty ruthless when it comes to traitors myself.

 

Leliana is not a psychopath, she is someone who is capable of compartmentalizing, in that she keeps two very separate parts of herself very well, the ruthless and the compassionate. If you talk to her, she wants to fight for the rights of others. During wicked hearts, she wants to hand power over to briala so that she can make life better for the elves, she likes that you freed the mages because she believes in them having rights too, and finally her goal as divine is for the chantry to stop brutalizing the elves, belittling the dwarves and being inclusive to everyone, even mages. Even David Gaider himself said that the biggest factors in regards to making her divine involve putting Briala in power and freeing the mages(not just from alexuis, but making them equal allies) She has a great deal of compassion, even as "ultra" hardened leliana. The difference is in how she goes about fighting for these ideals. I just think its fascinating how so many people cling to the idea that human psychology can neatly be placed into boxes of black and white. There are many examples, and psychological experiments that show we are all capable of a great deal of darkness to one degree or another, depending on the circumstances, even people who did compassionate things before.

what does softened Leliana say at the end, after her final quest with the box from the divine? I always end up hardening her.

[kingsims]

Top Dialogue choice (Paragon) is always the case with bioware games. I thought this was obvious to people playing Paragon characters, if you are renegade then Hardened Lelina gets the Job done.

 

1st Convo (Let killer go). Top right choice

2nd Convo (Did the right thing in pulling back). Top right choice

 

Also when you get the Yellow circle flash in dialogue box then its a major decision. Its exactly like Iron Bull personal quest line ending. The paragon choice means sacrificing an alliance but not people. Renegade would do anything for the mission.

[Terrian]

So, I just found out that the outcome of Leilana killing an unarmed, amateur spy in cold blood is due to my Inquisitor not interfering with her decision to kill an agent of hers who turned (Say Nothing option).

 

Wow. Just wow.

 

No, that makes perfect sense. Because murdering unarmed nuns and murdering double agents is the same thing.

 

It's just written in a not well thought out way. Fanboys need to stop the ass kissing process. The fact that you want choices in Bioware games doesn't mean you can't critique those that don't make any sense. 

 

To the "RAGE, my choice mattered" people - look, I really like the game,

but it's far from perfect. 

 

People dare to voice their dissatisfaction with the delivery of some of choices (i.e. not even the choices themselves), and you begin your tirade about wanting choices in Bioware games? Please... what are you, 12?

[leaguer of one]

The 'issue' I have with the traitor-story is that your character has basically no knowledge about Leliana at that point, and is still a nobody who is technically still (sort of) a prisoner. So far, I have chosen to stay out of it, as I thought this to be the most in character option. Sure, I know her backstory, but not my character, and I don't like metagaming.

 

I would prefer to have more options for softening her, instead of only choosing the right option 3/3/. Why can't you express your opinion on the matter, or let your own ways of dealing with prisoners be of influence, for example? I thought it was frustrating to have her just kill the nun, whilst I told her not to, only because I 'just' picked 2/3 of the 'softening' options. If that is just her character? Sure, that's fine. But finding out that it could have been different irked me a bit. Nonetheless: I like seeing that your actions matter.

That makes it more tragic. You learn to like them then find out you lost or may of lost a great person later. Like Divine Justina.

[leaguer of one]

 

 

Choices and consequences are great, when they make sense. The whole outcome here makes almost as much sense as Mordin getting a rocket in the face at the end of ME2 because you didn't complete his loyalty mission... because loyalty and dodging a stray rocket are obviously connected.

that only happen if he's covering the door.

[hkthui]

It's not about how familiar you are with Leliana. That does not have any bearing. It's all about what type of person you role-play your inquisitor. A compassionate, merciful inquisitor will steer Leliana towards the softer side. Whereas if your inquisitor is as ruthless as Justinia, Leliana will remain in the darker path.

[Ieldra]

I say that if avoiding a stupid decision in the prologue makes Leliana become ruthless, then so be it. People react in unexpected ways after all, and while I vary my answer to the Scouts at Haven situation, I always stay out of the "traitor" decision in the prologue. It's her job, not mine, at that point, and to let the traitor go after signficant death and damage has been caused by him is stupid.

 

The thing I didn't like about the final conversation was that she acted as if I had driven her towards it "after everything you said and did". Well, in my last game I said nothing in the prologue, said our scouts aren't expendable and we aren't like Corypheus in the second, and recommended that she let the sister live in the third. On top of that, my Inquisition is everyone's best friend. So, dear Leliana, what exactly did I say or do to drive you towards that cold-blooded and unnecessary murder? As far as I'm concerned, I had no hand in it, and I'm not going to be driven into guilt because of it. At some point at least, people's decisions are theirs. 

[robertthebard]

It's just written in a not well thought out way. Fanboys need to stop the ass kissing process. The fact that you want choices in Bioware games doesn't mean you can't critique those that don't make any sense. 
 
To the "RAGE, my choice mattered" people - look, I really like the game (image snipped)
but it's far from perfect. 
 
People dare to voice their dissatisfaction with the delivery of some of choices (i.e. not even the choices themselves), and you begin your tirade about wanting choices in Bioware games? Please... what are you, 12?

So what, they need to start having a mini tutorial pop up that says something like: "If you choose A, you'll get X later, if you choose B, you'll also get X, but if you choose C, you'll get Y"? Does the fact that it's a fairly hardline stance, either encouraging the death of the traitor, or approving by not saying anything, not indicate that it might have a hardening effect on Leliana? How does that work, exactly? So only fanboys have enough common sense to figure out that hardline actions might have a hardening effect? Only 12 year olds can figure out that killing traitors is, indeed, killing traitors, and that doing so, instead of showing some mercy, might have the effect of NPCs building on that choice? You see, the delivery is just fine; it's people not thinking about the consequences, either real or imagined, later on down the road that's borked.

With no foreknowledge whatsoever, I figured that either allowing her to kill the spy would harden her. I did not know what the consequences of that would be later, until I got them, but I knew it would have the exact effect on her that it did. So I have to either be a fanboy, or 12 to put that together?

[Half_Moon]

It DOES seem like it was shoehorned in. She makes hundreds of decisions a week but THAT decision to not kill the dude who's endangering your campaign is the one that turns her?

 

Well... go figure.

 

I've just noticed from looking at the youtube clips that there's an orange glow around the conversation wheel for the significant decisions and killing that traitor was one of them. I just didn't notice it before.

[trooper11]

With no foreknowledge whatsoever, I figured that either allowing her to kill the spy would harden her. I did not know what the consequences of that would be later, until I got them, but I knew it would have the exact effect on her that it did. So I have to either be a fanboy, or 12 to put that together?

 

 

I think the problem most people have with this is that there is no chance at redemption later on in the game.  There are many reasons why a player might choose to stay out of Leliana's way at that moment in the game.  Now if you choose to encourage her, then I can see that being a strong influence, but staying out of it seems to be the more neutral choice and that is a popular choice when your not sure where you stand yet.

 

For me personally, I took that neutral option becuase I felt that my character was not ready to try and push his personal beliefs on people that did not know him during a chaotic situation.  I was more interested in staying out of their way until I got a better feeling for what was going on and got to know these people.  Even if I knew Leliana in DA:O, I knew she would have changed leading up to this game, so I wasn't about to assume anything about her until I had more time to talk to her.

 

Later on, I was in a more confident position about my own role and the role of everyone around me and was making decisions accordingly.  I of course made all of the other choices that would have 'softened' her, but it was too late.

 

I would have liked to see more oppurtunities to turn Leliana to make up for that early choice.  I don't think that's an unreasonable thing to ask for.  If its suppose to be difficult to turn her, a really big deal, then let's see more moments where we have to 'talk her down'.  

[Patchwork]

With my noble I deliberately played her with an underlining sense of entitlement, she gives her opinion because it doesn't even occur to her that it might not be her place to interfer. The bottom two options of 'Use Him' and 'I expected better from the Inquisition' aren't that bad. It's Leliana's shortsighted, Princess Stabittiness you're criticising rather than being horrified that the spymaster is daring to kill a traitor.

 

Still not happy with how it's set-up though.   

[movieguyabw]

Huh...  see, I told her not to kill the traitor, told her pulling her people back at Haven was the right call, and then during her personal quest told her to kill the woman.  So she killed her.

 

Wasn't aware that previous choices impacted this at all - but from what I'm reading on here, it seems as if this is what happens:  Leliana is already hardened.  We can see this early on with her, when she gives the order to kill the traitor and argues with you if you tell her not to.  We see it again when she's beating herself up over being overly cautious with her agents.  And we see it when she pulls her knife on the priestess.  Only an Inquisitor who is very resolute in their belief in preserving life is going to convince her to change her worldview.  If the Inquisitor really is that committed to the idea, they will speak up when Leliana talks about killing the traitor; tell her her agents lives are paramount; and tell her not to kill the priestess.  If you waver at any of those points, then you fail to soften her (again, these are points where we actually see she is already hardened, and we have to convince her to soften up) and she will kill the priestess regardless of what you say.

 

Personally, I'm not sure how one could argue that the choice doesn't make any sense in that case...  0o   I could understand if that's not what you were expecting (hell, I'd be shocked/confused too if it happened to me) but looking at the other choices involved, it actually makes a lot of sense, IMO.

[CronoDragoon]

Huh...  see, I told her not to kill the traitor, told her pulling her people back at Haven was the right call, and then during her personal quest told her to kill the woman.  So she killed her.

 

Wasn't aware that previous choices impacted this at all - but from what I'm reading on here, it seems as if this is what happens:  Leliana is already hardened.  We can see this early on with her, when she gives the order to kill the traitor and argues with you if you tell her not to.  We see it again when she's beating herself up over being overly cautious with her agents.  And we see it when she pulls her knife on the priestess.  Only an Inquisitor who is very resolute in their belief in preserving life is going to convince her to change her worldview.  If the Inquisitor really is that committed to the idea, they will speak up when Leliana talks about killing the traitor; tell her her agents lives are paramount; and tell her not to kill the priestess.  If you waver at any of those points, then you fail to soften her (again, these are points where we actually see she is already hardened, and we have to convince her to soften up) and she will kill the priestess regardless of what you say.

 

Personally, I'm not sure how one could argue that the choice doesn't make any sense in that case...  0o   I could understand if that's not what you were expecting (hell, I'd be shocked/confused too if it happened to me) but looking at the other choices involved, it actually makes a lot of sense, IMO.

 

Exactly. Leliana is not a blank slate. Every story since Origins, whether it's DA2, Inquisition, or the books have confirmed that Leliana's service to the Divine has turned her into a cynical, cold, calculating person. This is in fact the point of the Fade Divine's message to Leliana. The only time she acts differently is if she romanced the Warden (and even then, ONLY when discussing the Warden), but if the Warden cut her down at Haven hol-ee hell does this ring true.

[Bigdoser]

Exactly. Leliana is not a blank slate. Every story since Origins, whether it's DA2, Inquisition, or the books have confirmed that Leliana's service to the Divine has turned her into a cynical, cold, calculating person. This is in fact the point of the Fade Divine's message to Leliana. The only time she acts differently is if she romanced the Warden (and even then, ONLY when discussing the Warden), but if the Warden cut her down at Haven hol-ee hell does this ring true.

Yup she is the divine spy master who knows what she has protected her from, hell she may of had to assassinate certain people for the divine hence why the message in the fade that she failed her. When she asked my Qunari why I questioned her decision to kill him I simply said to her he is sure most of her decisions are fine but he has a problem with THAT decision. 

 

My qunari has the opinion once you kill someone their lives are over you can't change or mold them into something better or hell they may know something that would be useful in the future. The question is that he killed a fellow agent she trusted this agent instead of killing him outright bring him in for questioning he might know something or leliana might not understand the whole situation that lead to that event. 

 

The problem is with Leliana she is quick to draw the knife heck alistair makes a joke about it if you refuse her the first time in the Tavern that at times she is sweet then she is mwhahahaha I am stabby stab kill! When you ask his opinion on recruiting her. 

 

The previous divine turned her on the path we see in the current game hence why I feel the spirit said she failed her hell lets not forget that she is a Bard and viv said in certain places during "the game" you can be killed for picking up the wrong fork(with the wrong fork you picked up). I don't know if she was being sarcastic or serious but she sounded serious when she said that. 

 

A women dealing with all that? Plus being the divine spymaster she has her work cut out for her and its no surprise she is like that inquisition. 

[rak72]

She's bat sht crazy. "You followed me to see what was in my empty box - knife to the throat!"

She should really be prosecuted for that.

[SpiritWolf448]

What actually surprised me was that she actually deferred to you regarding Butler at the beginning of the game.

 

I mean, she is the spymaster (not to mention the cofounder) of the newly formed Inquisition, has supposedly been driven down the psychopath route for years by her oh so great "mentor" Justinia and "knows her game".... and you? Some person who a very short time ago was the prime suspect of a mass murder, has an ominous mark on the hand and otherwise is a complete unknown, drafted into the Inquisition as a member for the sole purpose to close the rifts.

You are not her superior at that point, you aren't even close to being an equal. You're an upstart.

 

And she still defers to you. Why? That does not make sense. Later on, when you question her, she goes all like "i know what i'm doing, shut up"... but there, at the one point where such a behaviour would have made sense, she doesn't.

 

To call her bat-sh*t crazy is actually the understatement of the Dragon Age.

[Wulfram]

Only an Inquisitor who is very resolute in their belief in preserving life is going to convince her to change her worldview.

But it's not about changing her worldview, it's about stopping her from going completely nuts. Or being able to do something about your spymaster going completely nuts.

If hardened Leliana simply continued acting like a ruthless spymaster, rather than ignoring orders to murder someone and then pretty much going rogue while talking like a crazy person, that would be different.

[samb]

I wanted Lilieanna to be Divine at first but then realized she would have her secret police kill everyone who didn't agree with her. Is she any different if she is not hardened?

[Yenkaz]

Samb: I quite agree. Cassandra seemed sadly forced by duty so I was inclined towards Leliana.. until this side quest. Cassandra seems to have the most realistic long term goal for the chantry, I'm going with her now.

 

I didn't mind this so much, actually. I do not hold the Inquisitor responsible for changes to her personality after ordering the execution of a murderous traitor, nor expecting scouts to put their life on the line to protect Haven - just as much as the guards or the inquisitor did when the attack came. This showed that Leliana has become unhinged and unwilling to follow orders, if she disagrees, a sad fate for the lover of the my warden... Hell, I don't even mind her taking the relative of the grand cleric hostage afterwards, that's a normal tactic used in those days, but the inquisition gained nothing by murdering that Sister..

 

As others have stated, the earlier decisions that this were based off were not even pragmatic, the alternatives simply made you a bad leader.