16 réponses à ce sujet

[Amirit]

Speechless. I want to nominate that ... piece of work as THE worst quest in the game. Seriously, if you thought the choice between Straut and Hawke was forced and totally unbelievable, think again. Andraste's flaming ass! Every second of that quest was painful: first, game mechanic - invisible walls as guiding marks? Seriously? Points are not clear enough? Second, animation - worst cut-scenes ever! And I mean ever! Both ships, "sea battle", forces movements - like it was taken from another game (20 years old at least). The whole idea of moving with small numbers (oldest the most pathetic excuse in the games to force you to do something stupid). And the last one - choice. OMG, THE CHOICE! You have to choose between "Charges" and - attention - "a dreadnought".

 

Someone wrote that: http://www.reddit.co...choice_in_iron/

1.The Chargers aren't a thieves' guild, they're a mercenary company who were only outnumbered something like 2:1. If they aren't good enough to face those odds -- for an assortment of enemies ranked normal difficulty were you to face them with only four people -- they seem like they'd be poor at their jobs anyway.
2.Why on Thedas could you not help them? You just stand there watching them get slaughtered, when there is blatantly nothing coming for your spot. You're in the same area even when the quest ends, one way or another, and there aren't any Venatori in sight.
3.Why was there no third choice to send one of your party members to help, a la Mass Effect 2 with Archangel's recuitment? Maybe you'd still lose a Charger or two, but at least it would make more sense. Between the Bull and the Inquisitor, you already have two person-shaped demolition teams; surely someone can be spared.
4.Why would the qunari send them on what is, frankly, a suicide mission to begin with? To test how willing they were to slaughter everyone they care about for a political end? If the Inquisitior were so willing to throw away allies, you probably wouldn't want to form an alliance anyway.
5.Is there any reason the nearby multitude of Inquisition forces couldn't be fucked to help in any way? I know why you couldn't send additional support, but there are a lot of camps on the Coast that could spare some soldiers.

 

And this is about Charges. But I want to talk about poor ship. So, now, Dreadnoughts are - what? Robots? One insignificant mechanical unit? That sail and fire totally by itself? There are PEOPLE there. On a big ship (like a Dreadnought) - the crew is several hundred people. You are not choosing between five mercs and one robot, you are choosing between 5 (five) people and 700-1000 people (OVER five hundreds people!) Why it does not even mentioned? 

 

Ok, I know why - to make a mindless choice, to make it look like this is about IB's future in the Qun and nothing more. And to make DRAMA! Ok, got it. But, Maker's breath, could not you make it less hypocritical? 

 

So far - the worst quest in the game in every aspect.

[Sugram84]

yes, there is more people on the ship then the number of Bull's men, ship that big has to have large crew, no idea how much but more then Bull currently has

[d-boy15]

If its up to me I would design the choice to be chosen by Bull but based on players influence like Leliana.

His men and his life, it should be up to him alone.

[Sugram84]

If its up to me I would design the choice to be chosen by Bull but based on players influence like Leliana.

His men and his life, it should be up to him alone.

i agree, but then it would not be a DA RPG, u have to make them grater persons that they are or real scum, ur choice, but i would do it differently, in that mission he makes the choice, but the time u get to that point u have build him the kind of person who wont sacrifice hes men, the way u talk to him will change him, but first time u don't know how he will change, to good or worse, also new missions where bull can have special option, like he gets mad wants to kill the jerk, like solas turning hes mission, & ur decision there effects him, also mission what is similar with the Demand of the qun & he leads ur men & u don't allow them to be sacrificed (that mite be to obvious trigger, but u get my point), also option to Bull's mission, u can switch, Chargers get ur mission & u get their mission & u can handle them so Chargers survive

[Qun00]

If its up to me I would design the choice to be chosen by Bull but based on players influence like Leliana.

His men and his life, it should be up to him alone.

My thoughts exactly.

Iron Bull doesn't seem to actually hate the Qun. The decision to become Tal Vashoth or not shouldn't be yours.

[MiyuEmi]

Well, no one in the DA world seems entirely capable of making decisions on their own so they'll always defer to you, and while I always choose the Chargers, you're right, Bull should have some part in making the decision as, at the moment, he doesn't appear to.  Unless I'm wrong, he'll approve your decision either way.

 

@Qun00: You're right, Bull seems to actually love the Qun, but I honestly have to wonder if he really does or if it's just a brainwashed mind-set.

[Aaleel]

If its up to me I would design the choice to be chosen by Bull but based on players influence like Leliana.

His men and his life, it should be up to him alone.

 

Why, it's the Inquisitions Alliance on the line.  The most important thing is stopping Corypheus, not Iron Bull or his men.  If the alliance is needed to achieve the overall world saving goal, why would you as the leader of the Inquisition leave the decision up to someone who obviously has personal stake in the decision.  The decision should be what's best for the Inquisition, not what's best for the Chargers.

[MagisterMaximus]

The overall decidion is meant to be subjective but can easily be made objectively if you look at it like this:

Saving the Chargers is more of the "good" option for your character, if you use Iron Bull or want to strenthen your relationship with him.

Letting them die is more of the "good" option for the Inquisition as it gains a powerful ally and better naval support.

[Navasha]

Actually, it more boils down to how the PLAYER views the Qun.   

 

People who view the Qun as "just" another country but with a powerful military and they believe to have a good or even tolerable society will likely pick the Qun over the Chargers.

 

People (myself included) who see the Qun as a lawful evil society who enslave everyone they meet, making even their own "citizens" little more than tools to be used and discarded, see no reason to sacrifice the lives of a few good individuals just to buy a little time with a "fake" ally.    Ultimately, the Qun has a completely opposite worldview and will eventually come to blows.    You can't really have an alliance with someone who has completely opposite goals from yourself.   It just doesn't work.

[Patchwork]

If its up to me I would design the choice to be chosen by Bull but based on players influence like Leliana.

His men and his life, it should be up to him alone.

 

Which would be fine if the object of the quest wasn't an alliance with the qunari. Maybe it's because I'm pretty indifferent to Bull but I don't think something that in theory if not actual gameplay should affect the Inquisition forces so much is left up to anyone but the Inquisitor.

 

But I'd have no problem if he strongly offered his opinion one way or another if you'd influenced him to be more qun/tal vasoth.  

[Aaleel]

Actually, it more boils down to how the PLAYER views the Qun.   
 
People who view the Qun as "just" another country but with a powerful military and they believe to have a good or even tolerable society will likely pick the Qun over the Chargers.
 
People (myself included) who see the Qun as a lawful evil society who enslave everyone they meet, making even their own "citizens" little more than tools to be used and discarded, see no reason to sacrifice the lives of a few good individuals just to buy a little time with a "fake" ally.    Ultimately, the Qun has a completely opposite worldview and will eventually come to blows.    You can't really have an alliance with someone who has completely opposite goals from yourself.   It just doesn't work.

Then why take the mission at all? You knew you were going there to form an alliance. So if you can't have an alliance with someone who has completely opposite goals from yourself why go? You were given the chance to say no.

[ReiKokoFuuu]

the main thing that bothered me about the quest was that the decision was completely left up to the inquisitor.  yes, a potentially powerful (if dangerous) alliance was on the line, but those were iron bull's MEN.  he's loyal to the qun, but the chargers are like family to him, so i was expecting at least some input from him, something to show his internal conflict.  i don't think the quest was that bad, but it could've been better.

[Sugram84]

Why, it's the Inquisitions Alliance on the line.  The most important thing is stopping Corypheus, not Iron Bull or his men.  If the alliance is needed to achieve the overall world saving goal, why would you as the leader of the Inquisition leave the decision up to someone who obviously has personal stake in the decision.  The decision should be what's best for the Inquisition, not what's best for the Chargers.

The Qunari never came, i haven't seen them or heard of them sins Bull's mission, so if u look it that way they are not needed at all, that's how it is, but i think Bioware & EA screwed up with that, that it dose not matter how meany or how less allies u get (& i mean all allies Qunari & Wardens & others) end result is same, that it has no effect on ur win & loss (that u even cant lose like in ME3 where if u don't chose reapers win) is a screw up

[Sugram84]

Actually, it more boils down to how the PLAYER views the Qun.   

 

People who view the Qun as "just" another country but with a powerful military and they believe to have a good or even tolerable society will likely pick the Qun over the Chargers.

 

People (myself included) who see the Qun as a lawful evil society who enslave everyone they meet, making even their own "citizens" little more than tools to be used and discarded, see no reason to sacrifice the lives of a few good individuals just to buy a little time with a "fake" ally.    Ultimately, the Qun has a completely opposite worldview and will eventually come to blows.    You can't really have an alliance with someone who has completely opposite goals from yourself.   It just doesn't work.

it has positive & negative side, in a way they hold order with their system they call The Qun, awry1 is at their place so no1 needs to fight over power, but its also kind off slavery, so i don't support their way, but when u look at real world u think: Qun is needed, where are the Qunari LOL

[zambingo]

I feel this quest is a Reading Between The Lines moment. The PC technically chooses, but in narrative it is Iron Bull weighing your POV with his and the Qun. Also I feel it's a test for Iron Bull's faith in his culture.

Talking to him prior he is very concerned with what the Qun means for the rest of the world, remorseful even. The Qun works for him but he no longer believes in forced conversion/conquering. The Qunari know this about him, they see it as we can, perhaps more in regards to how his reports are handled.

The Qunari Elf reinforces that assumption. The mission parameters reinforce that assumption. Bull is being placed in a position intentionally by his superiors to choose his fate, perhaps even a scenario crafted by them. The mission is never really about an Alliance, the Qunari are not really concerned with that, they want Bull to figuratively "come home".

Any guessing about crew complement of the Dreadnaught, weighing of their lives vs the Chargers, wondering about the worth of an ill defined alliance is all inconsequential. This mission is purely about Iron Bull.

[EmBlue]

If its up to me I would design the choice to be chosen by Bull but based on players influence like Leliana.

His men and his life, it should be up to him alone.

 

He should have made that choice for himself-- but as you're technically his boss I could see that you could overrule him and then he'd be cut up about that (or later even grateful?).

[Anvos]

Well it really is as much the inquisitor's decision as Bull's since your organization is the one footing the bill for the Chargers and not the Qun.

 

Plus even if Bull chose not to most of my Inquisitors wouldn't leave it at that and let the Chargers die for a vague ally that won't actually commit what their giving me and would likely make the inquisition more enemies than friends.

 

Not to mention I squarely blame the Qunari for the failure of the mission since its not the Inquisitor's fault they either failed at intel or purposely sent us in undermanned.  Also if your building a giant metal bath tub and not putting a forward gun on it or having a few Serabass on board to throw up a barrier your ship deserves to sink.