38 réponses à ce sujet

[lastpawn]

Am I crazy or is the 25% damage bonus NOT applied to abilities? Seems to only effect my regular weapon damage.

[szemyq]

From my personal testings it increases even auto attacks only by a small margin and not by 25%. This may be because it applies before armor reduction and not after. Furthermore it occured to me that the damage increase does not apply to targets immune to poison. I tested it on undead archers in farrow mire which have 0 armor and my autos did not increase at all against them. My other testsubjects were bears in the hinterlands and some humanoids. In these tests my autos did increase by a really small margin like 7-10%. So further testing is required but i am actually not too impressed by this skills upgrade.

Edit: i only tested it with a bow. No tests on daggers.

[lastpawn]

Thanks. I've seen a number people post guides assuming it applies to all damage. Looks like it only applies to autoattack... marginally.

[zeypher]

This is good to know,

[zeypher]

So overall poisoned weapons is lackluster at best? especially when we have limited skill slots.

[szemyq]

I did another test with upgraded poison blades. Target was a bisent (bulls in crestwood). 10 full draws out of stealth with and without upgraded poison blades. All shots fired from the front.

Results:
Without pb: 2073/2030/2328/2073/2158/2030/2413/2328/2073/2286 average 2179.2 per full draw

With pb: 2158/2413/2413/2030/2030/2073/2286/2286/2073/2413 average 2217.5 per full draw

Conclusion: again samplesize is way too small if you see the differences between the highest and the lowest hits. But if you compare the numbers you will see that every number hit with pb occured at least once without pb too.

All in all i still havent figured out where the rng in attacks comes from since all i can see are fixed numbers ( weapondmg, enemy armor, attack%, etc.). Somewhere in the damage calculation a rng factor needs to jump in and it needs to be a hidden modifier or i am overlooking something major. Anyway, as long as i dont know how damage numbers are calculated any conclusion will be pure speculation. Maybe you get a 25% chance to get a higher modifier, maybe you get a flat 25% increase applied before armor(highly doubted), maybe this upgrade does nothing for skills, maybe it does nothing at all.

[Blackstork]

I checked it too. PW is good thing for Tempest, since it does affect auto-attack. and you have more means to spread damage. Main is DOT obcourse, but it does increase your autoattack damage. It does not affects skills. It is good for FoL and for spreading poison with Double-daggers  in blobs/hitting enemies with multiple spammned Shadow Strike or Flank attack under Fire Flask.

Other than for Tempest, yes, its less useful, tho it does affect crit damage with auto-attacks , so Mercy Killing gangbangers benefit from it too. So you use it if you spread dot damage, or use Mercy Killing passive or Tempest with Flask of Lightning.

In any other case it not worth getting. Well-chained FoL , especially with Mercy Killing on sleeping/panicked target benefit ALOT from PW.

Must have if you run DW Tempest with Knock Poder and Templar or Rift in party,  optional in some other cases, useless in cases if you run rogue who does not have MK, not Tempest, and do not fight several enemies.

Un-upgraded PW is useful on archer in party , because ech hit with duration passive = 250 % WD on one target in DOTs, and all you need is to shot one arrow into each target on battlefield in order to get those 250% WD done.

[zeypher]

K did the upgrade increase the poison's dot damage. Does it make it 50% instead of 25% at start?

 

EDIT: so for an assassin poison weapons not the best thing. Sweet. I thank you all rogues for providing insight into our skills.

[Blackstork]

You are wellcome, as i said in other thread, yes, actually PW is not best for assasin. You better consider Mercy Killing. Its very powerful thing that benefits all you heavy hitting combos and synergies amazingly with your skill set. Mercy Killing is must for assasin imo. 2 Sleep abilities, esp with Nigthmare detonators from Templar and Mages = ensured crits for your abilties. IMO DW assasin should start with going all way to upgraded KP and MK at start of the game, before advancing to Deathblow (while having Twin Fangs from game's start)

 

Oh , excuse me 250% WD, still good for one attack if you shot 4 targets, one low cost skill = 1000% WD. Btw this works with Leap shot, which does poisons many enemies.

[szemyq]

so i did some more testings and i now believe that it does affect skills too. it just not works the way i thought it would work. i am pretty certain that the skill upgrade doesnt increase your damage if you have poison applied to your weapon, but instead increases your damage against poisoned foes. i cant tell how much it increases and how it is calculated, but i will give you hard numbers that convinced me to believe it works this way.

 

 

fd:             fd with poisoned weapon:     fd on poisoned target:   fd on poisoned target via tears of death:    same as before but out of stealth:

 

967           985                                        989                                948                                                             2115    1988    2093    2286

873           1023                                      969                                911                                                             2286    2286    2093    2115

985           1023                                      1089                              892                                                             2286    2243    2362    2371

1004         892                                        1069                              985                                                             2286    2413    2272    2200

911           1004                                      1128                              985                                                             2200    2200    2182    2286

1023         1042                                      1089                                                                                                2413    2371    2541  

929           1060                                      969                                                                                                  2413    2073    2227

948           948                                        929                                                                                                  2371    2073    2541

1042         873                                        949                                                                                                  2371    1988    2227

985           892                                        989                                                                                                  2115    2328    2093

 

 

 

so what you can see here is that damage numbers between fd and fd with poisoned weapons are somewhat identical, but not a single number on poisoned target is identical to a number against a not poisoned target and vice versa. this also holds true to the critical hits out of stealth (assassin). furthermore you see the lowest possible number on a not poisoned target and the highest on a poisoned target. tests with tears of death just proved that it only works with poison blade poisoned foes. more test with sera showed that other party members are not affected by this skill.

 

conclusion: the skill upgrade  increases damage against foes that are posioned by the skill and for the character that apllied the poison only. further testings showed that poisoned apllied by other rogues with upgraded skill does not affect damage of the other rogue with upgraded skill. so it just works for the rogue that apllied the poison.

[Blackstork]

so i did some more testings and i now believe that it does affect skills too. it just not works the way i thought it would work. i am pretty certain that the skill upgrade doesnt increase your damage if you have poison applied to your weapon, but instead increases your damage against poisoned foes. i cant tell how much it increases and how it is calculated, but i will give you hard numbers that convinced me to believe it works this way.

 

 

fd:             fd with poisoned weapon:     fd on poisoned target:   fd on poisoned target via tears of death:    same as before but out of stealth:

 

967           985                                        989                                948                                                             2115    1988    2093    2286

873           1023                                      969                                911                                                             2286    2286    2093    2115

985           1023                                      1089                              892                                                             2286    2243    2362    2371

1004         892                                        1069                              985                                                             2286    2413    2272    2200

911           1004                                      1128                              985                                                             2200    2200    2182    2286

1023         1042                                      1089                                                                                                2413    2371    2541  

929           1060                                      969                                                                                                  2413    2073    2227

948           948                                        929                                                                                                  2371    2073    2541

1042         873                                        949                                                                                                  2371    1988    2227

985           892                                        989                                                                                                  2115    2328    2093

 

 

 

so what you can see here is that damage numbers between fd and fd with poisoned weapons are somewhat identical, but not a single number on poisoned target is identical to a number against a not poisoned target and vice versa. this also holds true to the critical hits out of stealth (assassin). furthermore you see the lowest possible number on a not poisoned target and the highest on a poisoned target. tests with tears of death just proved that it only works with poison blade poisoned foes. more test with sera showed that other party members are not affected by this skill.

 

conclusion: the skill upgrade  increases damage against foes that are posioned by the skill and for the character that apllied the poison only. further testings showed that poisoned apllied by other rogues with upgraded skill does not affect damage of the other rogue with upgraded skill. so it just works for the rogue that apllied the poison.

i still does not see alot of difference, and hitting target once almost certainly that you will het it another time, so there no differewnce. There is difference in auto-atacks though. More vissible one.

Also lets not forget that PW does 250% to target affected as DOT, which is not countered by armour (it surpass armour and elemental resistances)

[szemyq]

If you use the poison and start with a skill, the skill will not be affected by the upgrade. If you start with an autoattack to apply the poison and use the skill afterwards, the skill will be affected. I do see the difference. Since many numbers from full draws are identical with numbers from full draws with poison on weapon. But not a single number from full draw on a poisoned target is identical with a single number from full draw or full draw with poisoned weapon. But if you dont believe me go and test it on a target that is immune to poison. Your autoattacks will not increase at all against them.

[Blackstork]

Yes perhaps its so, the description is clunky., and perhaps first skill wont do increased damage. Thus you need to start with auto-attack. I see, this even extends usability of it beyond of what i though. I assumed it affects auto-attack numbers, but if it increases base weapon damage done by any attack or skill this is better. 

[szemyq]

Since i realised full draw is a bad skill to test this since it does more damage to unharmed foes i repeated the test with long shot. Approx. 50 long shots, 50 long shots with poison on weapon and 50 longshots on a poisoned foe. I will just list all different numbers that occured during this test.

LS: 405/414/422/431/440/457/466/475/483/492
LS with poison on weapon: 405/414/422/431/440/448/457/466/475/483/492
LS on poisoned target: 419/428/437/446/455/464/473/482/491/500/509

So i think it is a safe bet that it actually does work with skills but only on poisoned targets. Its not a big difference its just useless against poison immune foes.

[Matth85]

Looking art your numbers.

Average LS: 448,5 

Average LS with poison on weapon: 406,1

Average LS on poisoned target: 464

 

25% of 447.5 (as in, 25% increased damage should translate to an extra): 111,87.

So you should hit 559,375 on average, whereas you hit 464.

The increase is approximately 3,5% on this particular test. From 448 base to 464 with poison on.

Your hits are just varying from 405 to 509. A whole 25,6% difference from lowest to highest hit.

 

Just from that I am inclined to conclude Poisoned Weapon have no affect on abilities.

For the 25% to be working, you should normally hit hit low 400, and with the poison at low 500. Though from what I see, you hit between 400-500 regardless.

 

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 

We could also look at at single-intervals.

405, 405, 419. 3,5% damage increase. With 25% you should have 405*1.25 = 506,25 damage.

[Blackstork]

It could be that it , for skills, apply same amount of damage it applies to auto-attacks. Ie, literaly just 25% damage. This means if Skill does 200% damage, PW upgrade skill on poisoned target will do 225%, which is 225/200 = 12% in such case. The more damage skill does, more deminishing returns it provide with abilities. For 800% damage skill like Long shot it truly comes to figure close to 3.5% so this means my math is correct which shows that with PW upgrade Long Shot does 825% WD damage at long range. Diminishing returns.....Moree damaging skill, less importance PW upgrade have.

PW upgrade is still solid 25% damage on auto-attacks though, so my main assumption is that its good when you have alot of qty of autocrit, or playing FoL Tempest. It really makes difference for FoL and general auto-crit auto-attacks.

Consider its your poison bullet machine-gun upgrade. 

Its also good for skills like Spinning Blades then, which use alot of low damage hits. This means that each hit shown in skill formula (75% for example) will have 25% added to it. 

This actually makes PW upgrade good stuff to use with Spinning Blades, because it will simply increase its damage output by true 33%.

This is actually great, since its even more than 25% (100%/75% = 1.33).

 

Conclusion:

PW upgrade is good if:

You plan on alot of combos with Mercy Killing autoattack autocrits (questionable).

FoL Tempest. 

Base around SB + crit chance/effects and use SB as main skill. PW upgrade is actually 2nd direct upgrade for SB which add roughly +33% to SB damage output.

[szemyq]

And some more test to targets with less armor. All test above were done against 54 armor and guard.

18 armor target:

LS: 702/710/719/728/737/745/754/763/780/789
LS with poison on target: 735/744/753/762/771/780/789/798/807/816

0 armor target with barrier:

LS: 850/859/868/876/885/894/911/920/928/937
LS with poison on target: 880/889/898/915/924/933/942/951/960/969

[Blackstork]

And some more test to targets with less armor. All test above were done against 54 armor and guard.

18 armor target:

LS: 702/710/719/728/737/745/754/763/780/789
LS with poison on target: 735/744/753/762/771/780/789/798/807/816

0 armor target with barrier:

LS: 850/859/868/876/885/894/911/920/928/937
LS with poison on target: 880/889/898/915/924/933/942/951/960/969

 

Yep , that proves that calculation is done as [Skill WD % after armor calculation] + [25% of WD] = [PW upgrade damage in poisoned target regardless target armor class]

This means those 25% penetrating armor by default and not calculated for armor damage reduction, and applied after armor dr calc is done.

 

So PW upgrade is more useful if your target have high armor class.

Beneficial for skills with high speed of attack or crit/autoattacks

 

which , actually makes it amazing for Spinning Blades and FoL even more - since those 25% completely penetrate armour.

So on armored target PW upgrade affect Spinning blades at armored targer at ~40% damage increase upgrade!

 

Which means - 

Infected Wounds - PW  upgrade is good for:

Flask of Lightning

Spinning Blades

Very hightly armoured targets

Your party/rogue build relies on auto-crit / frequent crit auto attacks.

 

IW is bad if:

You rely more on heavy hitting abilities and have alot of them as well as stamina to maintain them

(ie assasin who relies on TF / DB / HB / MoD or sniper FD archer)

 

IW is useless : 

If target immune to poison.

[Matth85]

Hm.. you mean it applies before the % increase on skills? 

 

I did some testing. Stats:

 

Human Rogue Solo.

Bow of Cleansing Fire. Base damage of 85. 

14% Attack, 35 dexterity and 28 Cuning

 

Enemy: Level 12 Dragonling

I did 4 tests, 10 shots each. The target never moved, and was not flanked. Isolated test in other words.

Spoiler

Auto Attack

 

 1. 89

 2. 85

 3. 84

 4. 88

 5. 80

 6. 88

 7. 89

 8. 80

 9. 88

10. 80

 

Average: 85,1

 

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

 

Auto Attack /w Posion Applied

 

 1. 87

 2. 84

 3. 85

 4. 82

 5. 88

 6. 82

 7. 89

 8. 82

 9. 85

10. 83

 

Average: 84,7

 

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- 

 

Auto attack on poisoned target

 

 1. 97

 2. 96

 3. 102

 4. 103

 5. 97

 6. 111

 7. 94

 8. 97

 9. 99

10. 103

 

Average: 99,9

 

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

 

Longshot w/o poison

 

 1. 541

 2. 593

 3. 584

 4. 533

 5. 593

 6. 550

 7. 533

 8. 593

 9. 550

10. 533

 

Average: 560,3

 

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

 

Longshot with poison

 

 1. 584

 2. 584

 3. 567

 4. 550

 5. 533

 6. 601

 7. 584

 8. 558

 9. 541

10. 541

 

Average: 564,3

 

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

 

Longshot on poisoned Target

 

 1. 595

 2. 588

 3. 613

 4. 615

 5. 615

 6. 560

 7. 615

 8. 633

 9. 570

10. 606

 

Average: 601

 

-- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

 

TL;DR: 

 

Average Auto Attack without poison: 85

Average Auto Attack With poison: 85

Average Auto Attack on poisoned target: 100

 

Average Longshot without poison: 560

Average Longshot with poison: 560

Average longshot on poisoned target: 600

 

-- -- -- --- -- -- -- -- -- -- --

 

As clear as day really. Auto attacks average 85, as my weapon damage. Applying Poisoned weapon did nothing to that damage. 

Now, I am bit confused about the Longshot itself. Do I get 600% at 15 yerds, or 600% + the base 200%? At 600% I should do 510 damage, and at 800% I should do 680. I am kind of in the middle of the 2, so I can't draw a conclusion! 

 

Auto attack without poison to auto attack with poison got an increase of 17,6%. From 85-100 damage.

However, my Longshot hits went from 560 to 601. Also a 7,3% increase. Now, as Blackstork says, this could be because the poison itself doesn't apply to the skills them self, but adds to the auto attack base. It actually alters the weapon damage by approximately 25% for its duration! With that I should do either 600, or 800, damage. 601 was the damage I did, so that does add up.

 

*Looking at those numbers, I am inclined to believe Longshot stops at 600%, and it is not 600+200%. At which I did 50 damage more than I was suppose to. I have no idea...

* This is a 10-shot test. It can't be drawn a clear conclusion.. but we can draw one conclusion!

 

Poisoned Weapon does not apply to abilities. It changes your auto attack, and even the base damage of your weapon, by 25% for its duration.

[Blackstork]

Could you please check with Spinning Blades ( i am on job right now but very anxious)

Seems my assumption is correct.

17% is very close to the 25% its matter of RNG perhaps.

 

So far i seen before big upgrade on FoL machine gun damage.

 

All calcs provided here show that it been calculated not as multiplier but just been added as another 25% which, by the way are not subject to armor penetration. those 25% ignore armour, and this means this is totally blast with Spinning Blades, because then it will be 100% wd instead of 75% WD per hit, and on armoured target it will be close to +40% SB damage increase on poisoned target.

[Matth85]

Okay. Spinning Blade tested. Same Dragonling, no equipment par 2 daggers. No talent but the ones needed for Spinning Blade and Posioned Weapons + upgrade.

 

Weapons: Agile Shrewd Slicers, 95 AoE Damage. Spinning Blades does 75% of weapon damage. 

 

Spoiler

Spinning without Posion

 

 1. 63

 2. 63

 3. 60

 4. 60

 5. 66

 6. 65

 7. 64

 8. 67

 9. 60

10. 66

11. 61

12. 61

13. 62

14. 68

15. 63

16. 68

17. 63

18. 61

19. 63

20. 60

 

Average: 63,2

 

-- -- -- --

 

Spinning With Posion

 

 1. 73

 2. 77

 3. 76

 4. 70

 5. 72

 6. 70

 7. 75

 8. 77

 9. 69

10. 70

11. 76

12. 76

13. 69

14. 72

15. 72

16. 68

17. 75

18. 74

19. 70

20. 70

 

Average: 74,55

 

TL;DR: 

Average without poison: 63,2 = 63

Average with poison: 74.55 = 75

 

17.8% increases.

 

Note: The first strike of the spinning blade applies the poison, and does(as expected) less damage than the rest of the strikes.

[Blackstork]

May be its still subject to Armor deduction? Perhaps thats why we have those 75%.

Hmm. What ius AC class of Dragonling? I guess its pretrty high?

Still its pretty odd bc it still should be more according to how it calculates. Does Dragonling have Poison resist or something?

Can you test just auto-attacks?

I tested it once with Flask of Lightning auto-attack machine gun. Worked well, actually. Done damage as i expected. around +25%, not sure what ac target was. Some Venatori in Western Approach.

Thanks

[zeypher]

hmm so poison weapon back to worthwhile? Dammit the main issue i have is not enough skill bar slots. 

[Blackstork]

hmm so poison weapon back to worthwhile? Dammit the main issue i have is not enough skill bar slots. 

No its still  like this :

 

 

Infected Wounds - PW  upgrade is good for:

Flask of Lightning

Spinning Blades

Very hightly armoured targets

Your party/rogue build relies on auto-crit / frequent crit auto attacks.

 

IW is bad if:

You rely more on heavy hitting abilities and have alot of them as well as stamina to maintain them

(ie assasin who relies on TF / DB / HB / MoD or sniper FD archer)

 

IW is useless : 

If target immune to poison.

[Matth85]

Basic melee attacks with the same setup as earlier:

 

Spoiler

Auto Attack without Posion

 

 1. 86

 2. 87

 3. 87

 4. 91

 5. 86

 6. 86

 7. 86

 8. 84

 9. 87

10. 80

11. 82

12. 82

13. 87

14. 81

15. 87

16. 83

17. 90

18. 84

19. 83

20. 90

 

Average: 81,15

 

-- -- -- --

 

Auto attack on poisoned target

 

 1. 98

 2. 91

 3. 96

 4. 101

 5. 91

 6. 91

 7. 99

 8. 97

 9. 92

10. 94

11. 94

12. 99

13. 93

14. 99

15. 91

16. 92

17. 98

18. 99

19. 98

20. 101

 

Average: 95,7

 

TL;DR:

 

Auto Attack Without Poison: 81,15 = 81

Auto Attack With Poison = 95,7 = 96

 

17.9% increases damage