58 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Short of joining with the mage side, there's absolutely nothing the templars could do that would make me side with them.

[LobselVith8]

But to do that, I would have to not side with the mage rebellion, and that's marginally less likely than my entering a maximum-number-of-potato-chips-up-the-nose contest.

 

The Templar Order is pretty much dissolved by siding with the mages, accepting them as equal partners, and with the right Divine. Any remnants of the order seem to remain (for the most part) with the Inquisition, under Cullen's command. I rather liked the outcome - I've never agreed with the Chantry controlled Circles, and I thought it was the fulfillment of the rectonned Magi Boon.

[The Baconer]

As a mage, I went with Templars.

 

Spoiler

I thought the overall story was better. I thought the Templars having their own civil war was a nice touch, unlike with the rebel mages who are just whining that they are being put in chains again... which didn't make much sense to me, they rebelled against the Chantry, why not ditch the Tevinter magisters? They have no vows to any order, and so many did leave the rebels, like Rhys and the Inquisition mages. 

 

I also liked Ser Baris and wanting to redeem themselves. My mage Inquisitor promoting Ser Baris and congratulating him for upholding the ideals of the Templars was cool to me, since it was a mage advocating the ideals of the Templar Order and praising someone who embodied them.

 

Spoiler

Can you promote Ser Barris even if you temporarily dissolve the Order?

[Daerog]

Spoiler

Can you promote Ser Barris even if you temporarily dissolve the Order?

 

Spoiler

Don't know. First playthrough I allied with Templars, second playthrough I'm not done with yet and I'm stuck on whether to ally or conscript the mages at the moment.

 

Although, it would make more sense to me that way. As my Inquisitor, after naming him Knight-Commander, adds "if the other Templars would accept it" or something along those lines, to which they salute Ser Baris. Still, I liked the scene.

[Iakus]

But to do that, I would have to not side with the mage rebellion, and that's marginally less likely than my entering a maximum-number-of-potato-chips-up-the-nose contest.

Ah, but seeking out their aid is not the same thing as siding with them.  Otherwise you couldn't choose to conscript the mages or dissolve the Templar Order.  

 

What you are doing is recruiting one side or the other to help close the Breach.  You don't have to condone the past actions of either side to do that.  

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I do the Mage quest since it just makes sense story-wise. Dealing with a magister who can bend the fabric of space and time seems more urgent than going to have a chat with the Templars. 

[Iakus]

Short of joining with the mage side, there's absolutely nothing the templars could do that would make me side with them.

Well, by the end of Champions of the Just their leadership is essentially decapitated and those that are left are more than willing to work with the Inquisition.

 

Where they go from their probably depends on who the next Divine is.

[Iakus]

I do the Mage quest since it just makes sense story-wise. Dealing with a magister who can bend the fabric of space and time seems more urgent than going to have a chat with the Templars. 

I did templars first (but intend to go mage with my next run)

 

I put off the choice as long as I could and in the end decided I'm shouldn't have meta knowledge that this is an either/or choice.  And decided to play it as "I want to speak to the leaders of both factions before deciding"  I had already talked to Fiona in Redcliffe, so next I would go with Leliana and Josephine's noble entourage to see Lord Seeker Lucius.

[Xilizhra]

Ah, but seeking out their aid is not the same thing as siding with them.  Otherwise you couldn't choose to conscript the mages or dissolve the Templar Order.  

 

What you are doing is recruiting one side or the other to help close the Breach.  You don't have to condone the past actions of either side to do that.  

Well, in terms of aid, I want both to be on the safe side. But if that's impossible, mages every time.

 

 

Well, by the end of Champions of the Just their leadership is essentially decapitated and those that are left are more than willing to work with the Inquisition.

 

Where they go from their probably depends on who the next Divine is.

Nope. Since that involves the mage rebellion falling to the Venatori; I'd much, much rather see the Order go red and then obliterate it.

[AshenEndymion]

Nope. Since that involves the mage rebellion falling to the Venatori; I'd much, much rather see the Order go red and then obliterate it.

 

The rebel mages don't "fall" to the Venatori...  The rebel mages willingly join them.  Sure, time travel... But Fiona still sold them all out...

 

Better to save the Templars, so you have a significant amount remaining to ensure the safety of the mages after Corypheus is dealt with.  After all, it'd be much harder to rebuild the Templar order if you let the majority of them take red lyrium.  And it's not like mages will stop being born anytime soon...

[Xilizhra]

Better to save the Templars,

Like hell.

 

 

 After all, it'd be much harder to rebuild the Templar order if you let the majority of them take red lyrium.  And it's not like mages will stop being born anytime soon...

That's quite a welcome side effect. I want them all gone. If such protectors are necessary, let them be from a new generation.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

No. Let the templars rot with Corypheus. It's a fitting end; finally they get to serve at least a substantial vaguely godlike being as opposed to a fantasy.

 

Nah.

 

More fun to watch the mages willingly go into actual slavery in order to avoid imagined slavery. 

[raging_monkey]

Like hell.
 
 

That's quite a welcome side effect. I want them all gone. If such protectors are necessary, let them be from a new generation.

as pro mage as i am i ask you a fair question... "at what cost to the mundanes until x group mimics templars" i hate chantry oversite as much as the next but total obliteration make you no different from the templars

[Hanako Ikezawa]

The rebel mages don't "fall" to the Venatori...  The rebel mages willingly join them.  Sure, time travel... But Fiona still sold them all out...

 

Better to save the Templars, so you have a significant amount remaining to ensure the safety of the mages after Corypheus is dealt with.  After all, it'd be much harder to rebuild the Templar order if you let the majority of them take red lyrium.  And it's not like mages will stop being born anytime soon...

Actually, the rebel mages are mind-controlled to join the Ventatori, like the Warden mages were. 

 

Not really. The Inquisition's forces include a sizable amount of Templars and Seekers who stayed loyal to Divine Justinia rather than joining Lord Seeker Lambert when he led the orders away. So it would be rather easy to rebuild the orders since we already have members among us. 

[herkles]

fiona when you speak to her at skyhold doesn't seem to mention mind-control to me. but then again she was an inpet rebel leader. who changed the rebellion from fighting for freedom to fighting to become citizens of tevinter, and thus having the right to own another living being as property.

[Mystical Mirage]

I believe the exact cause with Fiona is that she felt like there was no other choice at the time and she just wanted to see them safe.  Even after it felt like she cared more about their safety than anything.

 

She also said something about Tenventer Mages being snuck in their ranks or something?  Before the Conclave?  I don't remember, but it was some shenanigans like that.

 

 

By the way- I've played both, Loved both too, but I favor the In Hushed Whispers because of the massive amounts of lore to DA:O with Redcliffe castle and such.  And the whole, it just felt more urgent to get the foreign power out of Ferelden then to talk to someone whom advocated punching a chantry sister. (Even though I know why it happened, but in game my character doesn't know why)

[herkles]

I believe the exact cause with Fiona is that she felt like there was no other choice at the time and she just wanted to see them safe.  Even after it felt like she cared more about their safety than anything.

 

She also said something about Tenventer Mages being snuck in their ranks or something?  Before the Conclave?  I don't remember, but it was some shenanigans like that.

nothing wrong I suppose with mages fighting as servents of tevinter, it does mean that in ten years they get to be denying others freedom, for as citizens of the imperium they can have slaves. Nothing wrong about freedom fighters fighting for freedom to own slaves. they are mundanes so shouldn't they feel nothing but honor by being considered property to a mage?

 

 

Or perhaps a more believer in the cause of mage freedom would have chosen death instead of the path to slave-owning.

[Iakus]

 

Not really. The Inquisition's forces include a sizable amount of Templars and Seekers who stayed loyal to Divine Justinia rather than joining Lord Seeker Lambert when he led the orders away. So it would be rather easy to rebuild the orders since we already have members among us.  

I don't think there's a whole lot of Templars left.  Most of the ones still loyal to Justinia died in the Conclave.  And Cassandra is, as far as anyone knows, the last Seeker alive after the Promisers were done with them.

 

Mages, at least still had Vivienne's Circle...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

fiona when you speak to her at skyhold doesn't seem to mention mind-control to me. but then again she was an inpet rebel leader. who changed the rebellion from fighting for freedom to fighting to become citizens of tevinter, and thus having the right to own another living being as property.

The mind-control happens if you don't do the quest, just like how all Templars are turned into Red Templars if you don't do their quest. 

 

 

I don't think there's a whole lot of Templars left.  Most of the ones still loyal to Justinia died in the Conclave.  And Cassandra is, as far as anyone knows, the last Seeker alive after the Promisers were done with them.

 

Mages, at least still had Vivienne's Circle...

We don't have many, no. But we do still have some. Most likely a few dozen. You hear comments about them in your bases, like someone was surprised to see how well Templars and Mages were working together after what happened in Haven or something like that. 

[Br3admax]

The mind-control happens if you don't do the quest, just like how all Templars are turned into Red Templars if you don't do their quest. 

There's no evidence for mind control. Fiona's an "indentured servant," she really wouldn't have a choice. 

[AtreiyaN7]

This isn't exactly true... If you do the Templar side, you can get some permanent attribute buffs if you look around and follow a side-quest...  It's not a lot, granted, but I couldn't find anything on the mage side that gave a permanent attribute buff.

 

Ah, good to know - don't specifically recall anything from the mage side, but if someone is already inclined to side with the Templars, then good for them.

[AtreiyaN7]

Spoiler

Of all plot devices, Time Travel is by far the worst.

I find it funny how you can claim the Templar mission is more boring while talking about, "Whatever it is that goes on in it," I'll assume you've played it however. But if you go in with the mindset, "This is boring," I'm sure you'll be most pleasantly surprised to find out that it actually is. However, I didn't go into either assuming anything. I played them both and found that the Mage mission left me wanting. Mostly for any reason for me to ever play it again. The entire setting was red lyrium crystals in walls, which makes up a surprising amount of this game already. I fought a villain with the classic "Feel sorry for me" excuse. And I saw a world without my character in it, which logically looked exactly like other parts of the game already.

Compare that to Champions of the Just. No convoluted plots. Characters actually rebelling against the wrong their superiors were doing, you know something the mages never did, with the worst case being someone talking about how they should do something. A variety of settings. I saw what the Inquisition could become if it were used for ill and faced inner demons. You know, actual growth. Because literally everything that happens in the Mage side is completely undone. As if it never happened. Which it didn't.

Spoiler

All she did was scream and talk about how we should hate ourselves.

As to the rest, literally none of what happens in it is possible elsewhere, it's just,

Spoiler

"Oh well see there's these rifts, so we can all do anything now. Even if technically if we do anything with them, the reason for us doing them would be undone, so we wouldn't' do them, but then the reason would be back so we would, but then it would be undone again."

So yeah, no I don't like In Hushed Whispers. That combined with the fact that I have no sympathy for hypocritical sues is why I've only done it once, and plan to only play it once.

Yes, I'm saying "whatever goes on in there" because I only read about it in some posts by others who have gone the templar route, which made it sound like there was a lot of combat involving templars and possible demon bashing (but I wouldn't know, not having done it - especially since I have no interest in utilizing templars other than Cullen). Unfortunately, the posts weren't terribly specific about what went on other than some desire to save Ser Barris (?) because he's hot.

And while you might not enjoy the whole

Spoiler

time travel thing

or the fact that stories involving it seem to tick you off, other people do - which is probably why shows like Doctor Who are popular, along with other shows, books, and movies involving

Spoiler

time travel

which you hate so much.

I happen to think that you're being just a bit hypocritical and want to act like all mages just agreed with Fiona, etc. when it's clear that they didn't agree with her - people like Vivienne certainly didn't agree with her, and the whole vote was pretty close. It was Fiona's insistence upon the vote that forced things. Now if you consider that mages have largely been oppressed and also take the Kirkwall situation into consideration (remember crazy old Meredith, that shining paragon of her kind who showed us just how wonderful and caring templars can be? *sarcasm*), then maybe you can see how the mages as a whole were probably scared and probably thought that they didn't have much choice other than to throw their lot in with the rebels.

Because I get the feeling that they were probably pretty worried about the Rite of Annulment and/or being made Tranquil. The templars had been abusing their power, so what, the mages who disagreed with the vote were supposed to put their faith in those who had been abusing that power after a vote that put them in a terrible position? Now not all templars are bad, just like not all mages are bad. But seriously, get over it, the templars aren't all heroic, and there are bastards among them - just like mages have idiots in their ranks.

You know why? Because people on both sides are fallible human beings. And, by the way, I do recall Cullen talking about what he did in Kirkwall and how he failed to stand up against Meredith - at which point I more or less reassured him about the whole thing (despite playing a mage) by pointing out that he ultimately did stand up to her in DA2. Cullen himself also acknowledged that he was angry/upset for a long time after the events in DA:O - and that he could have been another Meredith - but he also realized that he should have maybe, just maybe, done the right thing.

See, people on both sides can stand on the sidelines and let bad things happen even if they don't like what's going on. But feel free to try to ignore the complexities of life and people in general. The fact is that everyone on all sides made mistakes, and that no one is perfect - certainly not the templars OR the mages. I have a specific stance on mage freedom, and while I've never been wild about how everything went down, the fact is that something needed to change - and if Anders was the trigger, then so be it (per a later discussion with Hawke, it's not like a lot of mages were happy with what Anders did).

So you can enjoy the templars, and those people (like me) who wouldn't side with them in a million years after what they've been responsible for can go about things in our separate ways. If you prefer the less convoluted path that allegedly shows more character growth, then more power to you. Some of us want something different - and that's why there are two ways of going about it. As some who prefers mages, as convoluted or not as the mage route is (in your opinion), and as distasteful to you as that approach is, I'll still choose it - but hey, it's my choice after all.

I just prefer the emotional impact of seeing what could happen to my friends versus dealing with faceless templars that I don't know and don't particularly have any emotional connection to. BTW, I have found letters, messages, that sort of thing while wandering around that show that people on both sides think the whole war is stupid and don't really appreciate having been dragged into things.

[LobselVith8]

as pro mage as i am i ask you a fair question... "at what cost to the mundanes until x group mimics templars" i hate chantry oversite as much as the next but total obliteration make you no different from the templars

 

 

Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but I don't see how that's the case, particularly given the inception of the Mage-Templar War. The templars decided to respond to the Enchanters' vote for independence by hunting down all the mages, without any legal sanction from the Chantry of Andraste or the Divine. Some of us morally disagree with the way the Chantry controlled Circles worked in the first place, and opposed Lambert's act to separate the Seekers and templars in a bid for more power.

 

I can't speak for Xil with any degree of certainty, but as for myself, I disagree strongly with the Chantry controlled Circles, and it's one issues that causes me to oppose siding with the templars with my Inquisitor. Lambert's comments in Asunder made it perfectly clear what he hoped to gain by taking away the Seekers and the templars from the Chantry: "Lambert slammed the door shut and allowed himself a smile. He imagined the Divine reading that. Without the templars, the Chantry was toothless - nothing more than a bunch of old women armed only with words. What would she do? Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different? In three days the templar host would march on Andoral’s Reach. With any luck, by the time he returned victorious the Chantry would have come to its senses and chosen a new Divine... one that would be eager to reach a new Accord with the seekers, placing the power much more firmly where it belonged."

 

These discussions always lead to disagreements because people can't come to a consensus on what should be done, but fortunately, Inquisition allows pro-mages and pro-templars to pursue their own path, so we don't need to agree.

[raging_monkey]

Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but I don't see how that's the case, particularly given the inception of the Mage-Templar War. The templars decided to respond to the Enchanters' vote for independence by hunting down all the mages, without any legal sanction from the Chantry of Andraste or the Divine. Some of us morally disagree with the way the Chantry controlled Circles worked in the first place, and opposed Lambert's act to separate the Seekers and templars in a bid for more power.
 
I can't speak for Xil with any degree of certainty, but as for myself, I disagree strongly with the Chantry controlled Circles, and it's one issues that causes me to oppose siding with the templars with my Inquisitor. Lambert's comments in Asunder made it perfectly clear what he hoped to gain by taking away the Seekers and the templars from the Chantry: "Lambert slammed the door shut and allowed himself a smile. He imagined the Divine reading that. Without the templars, the Chantry was toothless - nothing more than a bunch of old women armed only with words. What would she do? Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different? In three days the templar host would march on Andoral’s Reach. With any luck, by the time he returned victorious the Chantry would have come to its senses and chosen a new Divine... one that would be eager to reach a new Accord with the seekers, placing the power much more firmly where it belonged."
 
These discussions always lead to disagreements because people can't come to a consensus on what should be done, but fortunately, Inquisition allows pro-mages and pro-templars to pursue their own path, so we don't need to agree.

technically lambert had sanction since he annulled the accord(dont agree of course but it where the cards are). On your other point i agree. I was simply asking a question on how both pro-groups act the same

[herkles]

Fight for freedom!

Fight not to be slaves!

Fight to be free of the chantry!

We shall show that free mages won't become tevinters...

 

I mean

 

FIGHT TO OWN SLAVES

FIGHT TO BE A MAGE RULER

FIGHT FOR THE IMPERIUM!

FIGHT FOR THE FREEDOM TO OPPRESS NON-MAGES!

WE SHALL SHOW THAT FREE MAGES ARE THE SUPERIORS TO THE INFERIOR MUNDANES

 

 

^the above is a little tongue in cheek btw.