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Can someone explain Loghain?


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#26
Aimi

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I still dont get this"wardens almost got maric killed" talk. I dont recall the wardens dragged him kicking and screaming. In fact they tried to discourage him. The wardens didnt actually lie, the king choosed not to tell him where hes going.

So i guess thats thats why deemed it necessary to kill all wardens including the last 2 greenest Ferelden wardens ?


It's not about Ostagar. It references an event in the book The Calling, which takes place twenty years before the Blight.

The short version: Maric invites the Grey Wardens back into Ferelden because he LUV adventuring with them and wants to be besties. Some of the Wardens, through a train of events that's kind of silly, end up backing a plot to destroy Ferelden and/or the rest of Thedas helmed by our buddy the Architect and by the First Enchanter at the Fereldan Circle Tower. (Said First Enchanter is also Orlesian.)

Anyway, Loghain ends up helping rescue the Circle Tower and Maric from this bizarre conspiracy, which fuels his suspicion of both Orlesians and Wardens.
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#27
Xetykins

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The book was what i meant too :-) Maric the king and a grown man insisted he go with the wardens to the deep roads to investigate the on goings. Yes some of the wardens got glamoured in the end but theyre but a few.

#28
ORTesc

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I've seen many people calling him a hero and such, all I know about him is that he made a tactical withdrawal that lost Ostagar.

I have a feeling this is borderline public humiliation asking such, but I'm curious about his back-story and why I should/shouldn't see him as a villain etc.

 

Calin was always the real problem, in my opinion. As Loghain put it, he was a man/child playing at war. The tactical retreat didn't lose them the battle, the battle was already lost. There was no other option. But Loghain is no King, he's a general. And he lead Fereldin as a general would.

 

So I don't see him as a bad guy, I see him as a patriotic and experienced general that honestly believes that he's doing what's best for his country. He may be no King but he's also no tyrant.



#29
Merle McClure II

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I have to disagree Monica, there were other options to get the human noble to Ostagar other then having Howe ransack the castle. Besides, I don't agree with the concept of handwaving what I see as aspects of the story away as "bad writing", especially when doing so is meant to redeem/condemn a major character in the story. -- For instance, I consider that the Battle of Ostagar really was as bad as the cut scenes made it out to be, military tactics were never shown to be the Child King's strong point ... although to be fair, the tactics are about on the same level as we see throughout Thedas.

 

 

 

So we still have to answer;

 

How did Howe originally plan on getting away with slaughtering the Coustlands before the fall of Ostagar?  

 

Why did Loghain order Eamon's poisoning beforehand?


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#30
Xetykins

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Taking out the strongest allies and supporter and strongest contenders to the throne before killing off the king is quite clever in fact. Making hostile take over easier.

Too bad the wardens made those 2 looked like dumb and dumber.

#31
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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I have to disagree Monica, there were other options to get the human noble to Ostagar other then having Howe ransack the castle. Besides, I don't agree with the concept of handwaving what I see as aspects of the story away as "bad writing", especially when doing so is meant to redeem/condemn a major character in the story. -- For instance, I consider that the Battle of Ostagar really was as bad as the cut scenes made it out to be, military tactics were never shown to be the Child King's strong point ... although to be fair, the tactics are about on the same level as we see throughout Thedas.

 

 

 

So we still have to answer;

 

How did Howe originally plan on getting away with slaughtering the Coustlands before the fall of Ostagar?  

 

Why did Loghain order Eamon's poisoning beforehand?

Duncan seems to have thought Howe thought he would get away with it by killing all the witnesses. Which, to be fair, would accomplish it if done properly. Eamon's poisoning, I'll grant you, is a bit trickier.



#32
Hair Serious Business

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I really suggest you talk to him.His backstory should be much clearer to you.

I'm going to give one huge spoiler that I don't suggest reading if you wish none,but this spoiler will give you some insights of how Maric really saw Loghain:

Spoiler


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#33
Monica21

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I have to disagree Monica, there were other options to get the human noble to Ostagar other then having Howe ransack the castle. Besides, I don't agree with the concept of handwaving what I see as aspects of the story away as "bad writing", especially when doing so is meant to redeem/condemn a major character in the story. -- For instance, I consider that the Battle of Ostagar really was as bad as the cut scenes made it out to be, military tactics were never shown to be the Child King's strong point ... although to be fair, the tactics are about on the same level as we see throughout Thedas.

 

 

 

So we still have to answer;

 

How did Howe originally plan on getting away with slaughtering the Coustlands before the fall of Ostagar?  

 

Why did Loghain order Eamon's poisoning beforehand?

 

Okay then, presuming that it did happen with Loghain's approval or at least his knowledge, that's one incredibly complex plot. He has to ensure that Cailan is in a position to be killed in battle all while simultaneously trying to talk him out of being on the front lines. He and Howe would have agreed to this beforehand, and considering his disgust at hiring an assassin to kill the Wardens I think he would be downright disapproving of a plan to murder an entire family just to raise himself. Why bring the Cousland forces to Ostagar at all if you're planning to kill the family? Why not make sure the Fergus stays in the castle and dies? And Howe may be tricky little snake, but he doesn't know when to shut up, so why does Howe never mention it? He never says it in cutscenes with Loghain and he certainly never says it to your Cousland.

 

As far as getting away with it, who knows? Maybe he planned to lay the blame at the feet of the Cousland forces left. But it really doesn't matter. Not only have the writers explicitly stated that Loghain didn't know, but it's just too much that has to go right.

 

Poisoning Eamon is easier. Per the writers, he did it so he wouldn't have to deal with him if something happened to Cailan. Also per the writers, Loghain never planned on killing Eamon. If he'd planned on killing the Couslands, wouldn't he have also planned on killing Eamon, who's frankly, a much smaller fish? Berwick wasn't at Redcliffe to watch for the dead rising, he was there to let someone know if "something happened."

 

So no, it's not a plot. It's not Loghain's machinations to rule the world. The Cousland massacre is exactly what every other origin story is. It's a plot device to get you to Ostagar. If it was a plot, the writers would have made it much more clear.



#34
Xetykins

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Because its easier to kill the couslands if 99% of their considerably large army gone.

And for laying the blame on cousland forces. Well that wont happen. Howe declared that highever is his without being granted in front of loghain and didnt even blink. It could only mean spoils of war.

#35
The Cookie Monster

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There is something that made me wonder if it was really betrayal, instead of living for fighting another day.

He tried to talk Cailan out of staying in the front lines, that alone makes me wonder if he really tought to betray him since before, then why try to avoid Cailan going to the front lines?



#36
Monica21

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Because its easier to kill the couslands if 99% of their considerably large army gone.

And for laying the blame on cousland forces. Well that wont happen. Howe declared that highever is his without being granted in front of loghain and didnt even blink. It could only mean spoils of war.

 

Based on literally everything you hear at Ostagar, the Ferelden forces have been winning every battle and will continue to win. There is zero reason to believe that Loghain (or Cailan but probably Cailan because he's the king) called on Cousland forces specifically for the purposes of wiping them out. That's... really stretching. And where exactly did Howe proclaim that Highever was his?

 

There is something that made me wonder if it was really betrayal, instead of living for fighting another day.

He tried to talk Cailan out of staying in the front lines, that alone makes me wonder if he really tought to betray him since before, then why try to avoid Cailan going to the front lines?

 

Well, yeah. That's what a retreat is. You pull your forces back, regroup, and attack again. That's exactly what he was trying to do in Denerim before Bann Teagan stormed off saying that the banns "would not bow just because you command it." Who's ignoring the darkspawn threat again?


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#37
Xetykins

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Well not really stretching it out. Fergus has been in ostagar for at least one skirmish cuz hes already out scouting. And loghain cant actually do anything while under the kings nose right?

I think iirc he first said that when you first get to eamon's estate in denerim when loghain and howe showed up.Then when cousy said you'll hang for what you've done or in that context, loghain's pet called me churl :'( ...whatever that means.

#38
Monica21

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Well not really stretching it out. Fergus has been in ostagar for at least one skirmish cuz hes already out scouting. And loghain cant actually do anything while under the kings nose right?

I think iirc he first said that when you first get to eamon's estate in denerim when loghain and howe showed up.Then when cousy said you'll hang for what you've done or in that context, loghain's pet called me churl :'( ...whatever that means.

 

Honestly, the writers are not that subtle. If Howe's plot included Loghain, then it would be explicitly stated somewhere. Not to mention (again) that the writers have explicitly stated that Loghain did not know.



#39
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Well not really stretching it out. Fergus has been in ostagar for at least one skirmish cuz hes already out scouting. And loghain cant actually do anything while under the kings nose right?

I think iirc he first said that when you first get to eamon's estate in denerim when loghain and howe showed up.Then when cousy said you'll hang for what you've done or in that context, loghain's pet called me churl :'( ...whatever that means.

The current definition is "impolite or mean person," with the archaic definitions "miser" and "person of low birth." The second one doesn't apply, and I think she's a bit hypocritical if she means the other two. (She was, I think, born a peasant and raised on merit. The Cousland, the Amell, the Aeducan, and maybe the Mahariel should have an option to either snap at her or laugh in her face upon being described as low-born.)



#40
StarcloudSWG

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Loghain isn't wrong. Strategically, tactically, holding the Darkspawn at Ostagar was just plain not going to work. Too many darkspawn, the fortress was in ruins and not actually defensible, and the army was in a bad position.

 

And Cailan's plan of "One glorious battle to confront and kill the Archdemon" was suicidal. He was too wrapped up in his visions of the glory and adulation to come to see how precarious his strategic position was. Cailan was playing at war. Loghain wasn't.

 

Loghain wanted Cailan to listen to reason. He as much as says so to the Hero of Ferelden if you seek him out at camp before going out into the Wilds. To pull back, use part of the army as a delaying force, buy time to get the Arls' butts in gear (which is something they wouldn't do unless they could personally *see* the hordes at their doorstep), and draw the darkspawn into an asymmetric war as they had successfully done with Orlais.

 

But Cailan rejected the idea of doing the smart thing. And Loghain refused to allow Grey Wardens into Ferelden because the nearest ones were from Orlais since Ferelden had none of its own. Not that Grey Warden numbers are very great anyway and were unlikely to swing the course of the battle.

 

So with an idiot king intent on being suicidal and taking the Ferelden army with him, this was the best plan that Loghain could come up with to preserve as much as possible for the fighting to come.

 

He truly felt that he was being the hero, the leader who would preserve Ferelden. While I see that he had ambitions, I'm pretty sure that he was thinking of becoming king as a side benefit, not the goal.



#41
BioWareM0d13

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Loghain makes a grave strategic error at Ostagar.

 

He makes the greatest blunder possible for a military commander in underestimating his enemies. He writes off the darkspawn as not being a true threat, and in doing so,and  along with the regicide, condemns his country to civil war at a time when they could least afford it. If not for other characters stepping in and cleaning up Loghain's mess, Ferelden would have fallen to the Blight.

 

Loghain's actions at Ostagar can't be defended from a military point of view, and his actions rested entirely on the wrong assumption that Cailain and Orlais were a greater threat to Ferelden than the darkspawn. He completely failed to grasp the true strategic situation. Whether or not a tactical withdraw at Ostagar wss wise, Loghain blunders hard strategically. And it should be noted that strategy wins wars, not tactics.



#42
Monica21

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Loghain makes a grave strategic error at Ostagar.

 

He makes the greatest blunder possible for a military commander in underestimating his enemies. He writes off the darkspawn as not being a true threat, and in doing so,and  along with the regicide, condemns his country to civil war at a time when they could least afford it. If not for other characters stepping in and cleaning up Loghain's mess, Ferelden would have fallen to the Blight.

 

Loghain's actions at Ostagar can't be defended from a military point of view, and his actions rested entirely on the wrong assumption that Cailain and Orlais were a greater threat to Ferelden than the darkspawn. He completely failed to grasp the true strategic situation. Whether or not a tactical withdraw at Ostagar wss wise, Loghain blunders hard strategically. And it should be noted that strategy wins wars, not tactics.

 

Well, it's hard to grasp the true strategic situation when you're told, "I believe it's a Blight but I won't tell you why."


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#43
DarkTl

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I think the whole point was that even with Loghain's help they couldn't win. Because they attacked without a plan, and because you can't just kill all darkspawns, there are too many of them, unless you have unlimited troops.



#44
Aimi

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Loghain isn't wrong. Strategically, tactically, holding the Darkspawn at Ostagar was just plain not going to work. Too many darkspawn, the fortress was in ruins and not actually defensible, and the army was in a bad position.


I would like to preface this by saying that I'm very unhappy with myself for making this post. Moving on.

We don't have numbers, relative unit quality, or force multipliers for either army, so it's not clear what justification you have for saying that it was "just plain not going to work". We have the self-serving public proclamations of various persons involved in the engagement, but they're not exactly worth much.

It's possible to read each of the things you mentioned in multiple ways.

Strategically, Ostagar was a forward position that, if held as long as possible, would shield Ferelden and its citizenry and its manpower reserves and its tax base from the Blight. Operationally, Ostagar was connected to the rest of the kingdom by the Imperial Highway, which made its communications situation as good as it possibly could be, and it was situated at a relative choke point that limited the ability of any force coming north out of the Wilds to move beyond it into Ferelden.

(Conversely, failing to fight at Ostagar would be devastating for Ferelden. Ostagar was the best place to fight south of Lothering; north of Lothering, the country opens up considerably and the Fereldan army would find it impossible to occupy a blocking position that would prevent the horde from moving north. Once the horde was into the Bannorn, Ferelden's war effort would start to collapse: food sources and tax revenues would dry up, individual banns' armies would get swallowed, and the horde would gain deployment space and room to maneuver its larger numbers to trap the Fereldan army. Under such circumstances, it would not matter if the army were saved from destruction at Ostagar: it would be doomed to a certain slow death anyway. Unless Ferelden were to call in foreign military assistance, the kingdom's survival would be unlikely.)

And tactically, regardless of the state of the fortifications, any fortress (in ruins or otherwise) is a useful force multiplier or point d'appui; it did not need to withstand a formal siege, but any wall would be a helpful wall.

The strongest argument against fighting at Ostagar is the worry about defeat in detail. It's clear that the Fereldan army was missing 'major' contingents during the campaign, and only narrowly managed to gain receipt of others before the battle began. In theory, the darkspawn could have overwhelmed separate parts of the Fereldan army as they mustered and moved south. That's actually a fairly difficult balance to keep: on the one hand, you want to be able to deploy as far forward as possible to avoid the Fereldan heartland coming under attack, but on the other hand, you don't want to lose your army in a bad situation...but on the other other hand (yes that's three) if you can't fight in the far south your chances of winning operationally are extremely slim...point is, you can argue both sides for this. It's not a clear-cut "fighting at Ostagar was the RIGHT THING TO DO" or "fighting at Ostagar was STUPID AS ALL HELL".

But let all that go. Even if we did know those things, we still wouldn't be able to say who would have won the battle, because premodern battle was a lottery over which commanders exercised only a very small amount of actual control.
 

And Cailan's plan of "One glorious battle to confront and kill the Archdemon" was suicidal. He was too wrapped up in his visions of the glory and adulation to come to see how precarious his strategic position was. Cailan was playing at war. Loghain wasn't.


Every single higher military commander in Origins is an idiot. Loghain, Cailan, the Archdemon, and whoever comes up with the plan of campaign after the Landsmeet - Eamon, presumably. Each of them makes some absolutely stupid decisions that make it hard to take any of them seriously. This is partially because some of them (Cailan) were written that way intentionally. It is also partially because BioWare's writers are not warfare subject-matter experts and therefore are not very good at writing about complex military subjects; attempts to write military commanders as being "good" commanders founder on a failure to discern what a "good" commander's response to a given situation ought to be, while descriptions of battles - both in prose and in cutscenes/gameplay - contradict both the way battles are actually fought and the way that battles are supposedly fought according to BioWare's own lore.

Yes, Cailan's not very good at thinking about warfare in a systematic and intelligent way. That's very true. Unless the Archdemon showed up (and unless the Wardens killed it) the Blight would be far more than one big battle for the tales. Loghain, however, is also a doofus, because as much as he trades on his reputation as a military genius, the reputation is all he has - not anything to actually back it up. Loghain presents no alternative plan for the Ostagar engagement; he is, in fact, the architect of Cailan's plan, and presents it at the war council. As stupid as Cailan acts, Loghain lodges no substantive complaints about the way Cailan wants to fight at Ostagar: he whines about glory-seeking and the presence of the Wardens, and darkly hints that things won't be as easy as Cailan seems to think, but he does not say that the army should not fight at Ostagar. Even the semi-argument that Loghain and Cailan have about "waiting" for troops from Redcliffe and/or Orlais is a red herring, because there is no such thing as "waiting" at that point. The darkspawn horde is there: either the Fereldans would fight it, or attempt a retreat in the face of the enemy. There is no "wait" option.

If the decision to fight at Ostagar was a stupid one, then, Loghain was equally as complicit in that stupid decision as Cailan. Or he was a traitor. Either way.

As for the Archdemon and Eamon, the later campaign is simply bizarre. The Archdemon's appearance at Denerim made no sense: if it stayed hidden, the Blight would be, to all intents and purposes, unstoppable. Exposing itself at Denerim changed the likelihood of darkspawn defeat from "zero" to "something more than zero". It had no reason to show up and every reason to stay away, and it showed up because that's what the plot demanded. And Eamon bizarrely chose to muster the armies at Redcliffe instead of Denerim, a choice that makes sense in terms of plot and game mechanics but not in terms of strategy. Denerim's a more important thing to keep and a more valuable target for the darkspawn. Redcliffe only theoretically makes sense in the event of a plan to unite with an Orlesian army on the border while writing Denerim off, but obviously the Fereldan army did not write Denerim off, so...yeah.
 

Loghain wanted Cailan to listen to reason. He as much as says so to the Hero of Ferelden if you seek him out at camp before going out into the Wilds. To pull back, use part of the army as a delaying force, buy time to get the Arls' butts in gear (which is something they wouldn't do unless they could personally *see* the hordes at their doorstep), and draw the darkspawn into an asymmetric war as they had successfully done with Orlais.


Fighting a partisan campaign against the Blight is an abominably stupid idea. Darkspawn spread the Blight. The Blight destroys the earth. It poisons the water. It kills crops. It kills villagers, when it doesn't turn them outright into ghouls. It's not like the Orlesians, who would try to maintain outposts and keep order and make sure that Ferelden's government, society, and economy were functioning. There is no civilian morale to target, no ways in which the darkspawn could be made "uncomfortable". Splitting up the army into a bunch of tiny raiding groups would only divide forces and make them easy prey for the horde. Partisan warfare against the darkspawn would accomplish nothing.

And a massive defense in depth, in the fashion of Washington in New Jersey or Herakleios in Armenia, would be just as bad, because the Fereldan army still wouldn't have a way to get supplies. The only way to ensure steady access to food would be to actually protect food sources, but the whole point of the sort of campaign that Loghain supposedly had in mind is that mobility - not being tied down to specific areas - is the only advantage that the Fereldan army might have. That would be lost if the Fereldan army had to commit to defending an unblighted safe zone. If Loghain proposed to fight a war of maneuver against the darkspawn like that, his army would starve - unless it was killed off by the Blight's disease first. Once the horde started to leak into the Bannorn and spread the Blight, Ferelden would be screwed.
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#45
BioWareM0d13

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Well, it's hard to grasp the true strategic situation when you're told, "I believe it's a Blight but I won't tell you why."

 

Loghain didn't have all the information he needed, but no commander ever truly does. To varying degrees they're all going to be in the dark about some realities on the ground. He did have enough information to know that a darkspawn army was on the march and displacing lots of Chasind. He had no reason to dismiss that as merely a raid other than thats what he wanted (and needed) it to be. A more prudent man would not have ruled out the possibility of a Blight before the opposing armies had even made serious contact. 



#46
Zyrious

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I would like to preface this by saying that I'm very unhappy with myself for making this post. Moving on.

We don't have numbers, relative unit quality, or force multipliers for either army, so it's not clear what justification you have for saying that it was "just plain not going to work". We have the self-serving public proclamations of various persons involved in the engagement, but they're not exactly worth much.

It's possible to read each of the things you mentioned in multiple ways.

Strategically, Ostagar was a forward position that, if held as long as possible, would shield Ferelden and its citizenry and its manpower reserves and its tax base from the Blight. Operationally, Ostagar was connected to the rest of the kingdom by the Imperial Highway, which made its communications situation as good as it possibly could be, and it was situated at a relative choke point that limited the ability of any force coming north out of the Wilds to move beyond it into Ferelden.

(Conversely, failing to fight at Ostagar would be devastating for Ferelden. Ostagar was the best place to fight south of Lothering; north of Lothering, the country opens up considerably and the Fereldan army would find it impossible to occupy a blocking position that would prevent the horde from moving north. Once the horde was into the Bannorn, Ferelden's war effort would start to collapse: food sources and tax revenues would dry up, individual banns' armies would get swallowed, and the horde would gain deployment space and room to maneuver its larger numbers to trap the Fereldan army. Under such circumstances, it would not matter if the army were saved from destruction at Ostagar: it would be doomed to a certain slow death anyway. Unless Ferelden were to call in foreign military assistance, the kingdom's survival would be unlikely.)

And tactically, regardless of the state of the fortifications, any fortress (in ruins or otherwise) is a useful force multiplier or point d'appui; it did not need to withstand a formal siege, but any wall would be a helpful wall.

The strongest argument against fighting at Ostagar is the worry about defeat in detail. It's clear that the Fereldan army was missing 'major' contingents during the campaign, and only narrowly managed to gain receipt of others before the battle began. In theory, the darkspawn could have overwhelmed separate parts of the Fereldan army as they mustered and moved south. That's actually a fairly difficult balance to keep: on the one hand, you want to be able to deploy as far forward as possible to avoid the Fereldan heartland coming under attack, but on the other hand, you don't want to lose your army in a bad situation...but on the other other hand (yes that's three) if you can't fight in the far south your chances of winning operationally are extremely slim...point is, you can argue both sides for this. It's not a clear-cut "fighting at Ostagar was the RIGHT THING TO DO" or "fighting at Ostagar was STUPID AS ALL HELL".

But let all that go. Even if we did know those things, we still wouldn't be able to say who would have won the battle, because premodern battle was a lottery over which commanders exercised only a very small amount of actual control.
 

Every single higher military commander in Origins is an idiot. Loghain, Cailan, the Archdemon, and whoever comes up with the plan of campaign after the Landsmeet - Eamon, presumably. Each of them makes some absolutely stupid decisions that make it hard to take any of them seriously. This is partially because some of them (Cailan) were written that way intentionally. It is also partially because BioWare's writers are not warfare subject-matter experts and therefore are not very good at writing about complex military subjects; attempts to write military commanders as being "good" commanders founder on a failure to discern what a "good" commander's response to a given situation ought to be, while descriptions of battles - both in prose and in cutscenes/gameplay - contradict both the way battles are actually fought and the way that battles are supposedly fought according to BioWare's own lore.

Yes, Cailan's not very good at thinking about warfare in a systematic and intelligent way. That's very true. Unless the Archdemon showed up (and unless the Wardens killed it) the Blight would be far more than one big battle for the tales. Loghain, however, is also a doofus, because as much as he trades on his reputation as a military genius, the reputation is all he has - not anything to actually back it up. Loghain presents no alternative plan for the Ostagar engagement; he is, in fact, the architect of Cailan's plan, and presents it at the war council. As stupid as Cailan acts, Loghain lodges no substantive complaints about the way Cailan wants to fight at Ostagar: he whines about glory-seeking and the presence of the Wardens, and darkly hints that things won't be as easy as Cailan seems to think, but he does not say that the army should not fight at Ostagar. Even the semi-argument that Loghain and Cailan have about "waiting" for troops from Redcliffe and/or Orlais is a red herring, because there is no such thing as "waiting" at that point. The darkspawn horde is there: either the Fereldans would fight it, or attempt a retreat in the face of the enemy. There is no "wait" option.

If the decision to fight at Ostagar was a stupid one, then, Loghain was equally as complicit in that stupid decision as Cailan. Or he was a traitor. Either way.

As for the Archdemon and Eamon, the later campaign is simply bizarre. The Archdemon's appearance at Denerim made no sense: if it stayed hidden, the Blight would be, to all intents and purposes, unstoppable. Exposing itself at Denerim changed the likelihood of darkspawn defeat from "zero" to "something more than zero". It had no reason to show up and every reason to stay away, and it showed up because that's what the plot demanded. And Eamon bizarrely chose to muster the armies at Redcliffe instead of Denerim, a choice that makes sense in terms of plot and game mechanics but not in terms of strategy. Denerim's a more important thing to keep and a more valuable target for the darkspawn. Redcliffe only theoretically makes sense in the event of a plan to unite with an Orlesian army on the border while writing Denerim off, but obviously the Fereldan army did not write Denerim off, so...yeah.
 

Fighting a partisan campaign against the Blight is an abominably stupid idea. Darkspawn spread the Blight. The Blight destroys the earth. It poisons the water. It kills crops. It kills villagers, when it doesn't turn them outright into ghouls. It's not like the Orlesians, who would try to maintain outposts and keep order and make sure that Ferelden's government, society, and economy were functioning. There is no civilian morale to target, no ways in which the darkspawn could be made "uncomfortable". Splitting up the army into a bunch of tiny raiding groups would only divide forces and make them easy prey for the horde. Partisan warfare against the darkspawn would accomplish nothing.

And a massive defense in depth, in the fashion of Washington in New Jersey or Herakleios in Armenia, would be just as bad, because the Fereldan army still wouldn't have a way to get supplies. The only way to ensure steady access to food would be to actually protect food sources, but the whole point of the sort of campaign that Loghain supposedly had in mind is that mobility - not being tied down to specific areas - is the only advantage that the Fereldan army might have. That would be lost if the Fereldan army had to commit to defending an unblighted safe zone. If Loghain proposed to fight a war of maneuver against the darkspawn like that, his army would starve - unless it was killed off by the Blight's disease first. Once the horde started to leak into the Bannorn and spread the Blight, Ferelden would be screwed.

I would point out that it is stated in-game that the reason the troops march to redcliffe is because all scouting reports indicated that the darkspawn were amassing north towards redcliffe and not towards denerim. The assumed plan being they'd head up to the river and cut off ferelden from the rest of thedas.This turned out to be a feint by the archdemon so that it could assault the capital while directly leading its forces. Keeping in mind that the archdemon is an old god, knows only 2 wardens remain in ferelden (it can sense them), and has outmanuevered the ferelden army, i'm sure it believed its presence wasn't at risk and would also help shorten the battle for denerim before the ferelden army could respond. There also seem to be implications that there is a range to the Archdemons control before the horde goes feral.

 

As for the battle of ostagar, there really was no other choice when you think of it. It is a natural choke point, which is why the Tvinter Imperium set up ostagar in the first place, and the only spot where you can really control the war. Ostagar *may* have been lost even with Loghain, but a controlled retreat would've been easier if after loghains flanking manuver it was deemed that the battle could not be won. People keep saying it "looked bad" which it did, it relied upon loghain perfoming a flanking manuver(Which is not an unsound strategy), had he done so things may have turned around.

 

As for cailain's supposed unintelligence; he was full of pride and gusto but it is stated quite clearly that he was amassing all the forces he could as quickly as he could, and has requested the help of the Orlesians and their grey wardens, stopped only by loghain himself. There was quite literally nothing else cailan could do. He had the right position, he called all of the troops as early as he can (infact with the lack of "blight" proof presented, with his glory seeking personality cailan amassed the troops faster than Loghain would have). We also see through the game that survivors from Ostagar seem far more certain things would have gone a lot better had loghain actually attacked instead of retreating (he had quite a bit of troops as we see, as well).

 

Had Loghain performed his manuver, he may have inflicted heavy casualties upon the darkspawn. Assuming defeat was truly inevitable, once this was realized a controlled retreat could have been ordered with the grey wardens and the king/general leaving alive, amassing at Lothering. At this point the surviving grey wardens could split up using the treaties to amass more recruits, and all of the troops who hadnt arrived at ostagar could meet the retreating forces at Lothering instead of wasting levies in a civil war.

 

However, all that aside; Nothing was gaurentee'd until Loghain ordered the retreat. Since there was no intelligence at all at the horde size when loghain ordered Eamon poisoned and loghain himself did not believe it a true blight, i think his intent (wether concious or subconcious) is clear. I would also point out to those who say loghain did not intend to kill him: It is stated that he would have died had connor not made the deal with the Demon.



#47
Monica21

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 I would also point out to those who say loghain did not intend to kill him: It is stated that he would have died had connor not made the deal with the Demon.

 

Where is this stated?



#48
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Where is this stated?

The Codex heavily implies it. Though we know the Codex not to be 100% unimpeachable. (The same could easily go for any of the NPCs who might say so.)



#49
Monica21

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The Codex heavily implies it. Though we know the Codex not to be 100% unimpeachable. (The same could easily go for any of the NPCs who might say so.)

 

Is it that people think he's going to die, or that he will definitely die? Because those are two different things. Wasn't Berwick supposed to be there to offer the cure if Eamon started doing down the path to actually dying?



#50
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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Is it that people think he's going to die, or that he will definitely die? Because those are two different things. Wasn't Berwick supposed to be there to offer the cure if Eamon started doing down the path to actually dying?

That's what I was trying to say. Though as for Berwick, he didn't actually have the cure. Loghain and Howe were going to try and decide whether or not to cure Eamon before whatever they were doing was over based on his reports. (Or at least that's what Gaider said was Loghain's plan. He hasn't said whether or not Howe was on board, and really even if he had I would have expected Howe to just let Eamon die and hope to get another fief.)