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[Merle McClure II]

Riverdales ... agreed, but the more capable you expect the Double Agents to be then the harder they are to turn in the first place ... you know, perhaps we should forget the double agent idea and look at the possibility that Howe theoretically could have turned to the Crows as we do know that he introduced them to Loghain.

[Monica21]

Well it's of course subjective, but yes, I find him less interesting as your pc's antagonist if he stumbled through the plot as an absolutely passive character that got unfairly blamed for a massacre and then did some irrational things in the light of the "truth" of his innocence and made some mistakes, in which the worst, the moral fallout more deservingly falls on Howe.

 

 

I'm not blaming him for a massacre. But if you feel like you need to blame him for a massacre, then yes, I suppose that you'd also have to create reasons to make that interesting. As it is, he's interesting enough.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Riverdales ... agreed, but the more capable you expect the Double Agents to be then the harder they are to turn in the first place ... you know, perhaps we should forget the double agent idea and look at the possibility that Howe theoretically could have turned to the Crows as we do know that he introduced them to Loghain.

I don't picture him so much turning double agents as sending infiltrators. Anyone he tries to turn double agent could sell him out. It'd be easier to put people in his army and hope that at least one gets close enough.

[Corker]

I've seen many people calling him a hero and such, all I know about him is that he made a tactical withdrawal that lost Ostagar.
I have a feeling this is borderline public humiliation asking such, but I'm curious about his back-story and why I should/shouldn't see him as a villain etc.

It's the idea that a once-great man, one responsible for the freedom and liberty of his countrymen, would himself turn to tyranny when his old prejudices blinded him to the current situation.

If you're an American...

Imagine that George Washington somehow lived to see the Civil War starting. And instead of Abraham Lincoln in office, it was Andrew Johnson (who did a bad enough job that he was the first president to get impeached).

Now imagine that Johnson dies under murky circumstances. Washington says that the country needs true leadership to maintain the Union, and bulldozes his way into the Oval Office. New England takes exception to this, further fracturing the North at a time when they need to focus on the Confederacy's secession.

There are rumors that Washington had Johnson axed, but he's George freakin' Washington, Father of Our Country and all that stuff. He's the Biggest Darn American Hero that ever heroed. He couldn't be wrong, could he? He couldn't be a tyrant, he fought against tyranny!

Except that in the years from the end of the Rev War til the start of the Civil War, Georgie's gotten a little monomaniacal about Preserving the Union. The Union must be preserved at all costs. No matter what. The ends justify the means, and if he's breaking the values that form the foundation of the government, well, there will be time to sort that out once the Union Is Preserved. Later.

Unfortunately, almost nobody except Martha and arms manufacturer William Wirt Winchester are aware of Washington's mental state. Martha's in denial about what her husband has become, and Winchester is making himself indispensable by finding threats under every footstool and providing the guns to shoot them.

Then Harriet Tubman and John Brown (who escaped capture after the raid on Harper's Ferry) show up out of nowhere, claiming that Washington killed Johnson. Most everyone south of Rhode Island and north of Virginia looks at these two abolitionists, one a black woman and one a wanted criminal, looks at General George Freaking Washington, and hangs with Washington. The New Englanders see allies and agree to work with them to get Washington out of, well, Washington.

Before a joint session of Congress with all nine Supreme Court justices attending, Tubman and Brown throw down with Washington, making the case that his actions have been more detrimental than helpful. It all comes down to Tubman vs Washington at the Bladensburg Dueling Grounds...

See, even if you hate all that Washington has done *recently,* you still know that fourscore and seven years ago, he was a great hero. And it's sad that the hero has fallen.


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For purposes of this analogy, the Confederacy represents the Blight only inasmuch as it was an existential threat to the United States. For the love of Mike, I'm not saying anyone was an inhuman monster bent on the annihilation of all life.

[elephunky]

I hated him before I was exposed to the dragon age universe. I recently listened to The Stolen Throne audiobook which is a prequel and I understood him better (when replaying last week) and hate him more.

[Mike3207]

Loghain believes he is the only person in Ferelden who can lead Ferelden out of his troubles and that's why he becomes the Regent.Good military commander, terrible politician. He's unwilliing to cede power to anyone because he doesn't think anyone else exists who can save Ferelden. That is, unless/until he starts to believe the Warden can do it after he is beaten by the Warden at the Landsmeet.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

He's unwilliing to cede power to anyone because he doesn't think anyone else exists who can save Ferelden. That is, unless/until he starts to believe the Warden can do it after he is beaten by the Warden at the Landsmeet.

He does. He wouldn't accept death/conscription so easily if he hadn't concluded you could take the Horde.

[Kevorka]

He believes that it is not a blight. He also blames Orlay for the death of his mother when he was a kid.
When Kalyan orders the warden to light the tower. He changes his mind to leave.
He thinks Orlay will invade with the help of the wardens.
To him the warden is a spy for Orlay. He only changes his mind when you beat him or get him to join the wardens. In other words he is a crazie old fart.

[dragonflight288]

He does. He wouldn't accept death/conscription so easily if he hadn't concluded you could take the Horde.

 

Alistair says it well when talking about Anora. 

 

"She's like her father, she believes only she can do the job." 

 

I know we're talking about Loghain and not Anora, but that quote is really what it comes down to. 

 

Loghain is dealing with petty nobles and idealistic ones who'd rather fight him than fight the blight, and thinks that only he can lead Ferelden's army to fight the blight. And largely, he's right in that very few in Ferelden are actually taking it seriously. Not even Loghain, who actually does try to regroup and fight the darkspawn again because he doesn't actually think it's a blight until the very end. 

[DinkyD]

I'm not blaming him for a massacre. But if you feel like you need to blame him for a massacre, then yes, I suppose that you'd also have to create reasons to make that interesting. As it is, he's interesting enough.

 

I meant that he is already blamed by some characters in game. Significantly, a whole portion of the Bannorn, according to the codex I think?  Also, I seem to remember something about rumours circulating around, and someone being arrested to keep them quiet? Even Anora seems to think he's responsible in some way iirc. I am fuzzy on this perhaps others can clarify.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I meant that he is already blamed by some characters in game. Significantly, a whole portion of the Bannorn, according to the codex I think?  Also, I seem to remember something about rumours circulating around, and someone being arrested to keep them quiet? Even Anora seems to think he's responsible in some way iirc. I am fuzzy on this perhaps others can clarify.

I don't remember Anora ever communicating that she believes her father to have permitted the massacre except when it was already too late to stop it happening. Of course, it's been years. Also bear in mind that the Bannorn believing Loghain to be guilty of something (if the Codex that says they do even exists) doesn't mean that he is: they can't read his or Howe's mind. All they can do is guess, and they have just as much evidence as we do. (Or less, if you consider Word Of Gaider evidence.)

[Merle McClure II]

I do remember reading somewhere about Howe being tied to dark rumors ... Darkspawn Chronicles also touches on that.

 

 

As for actual rumors involving Loghain, I'm pretty sure that the only thing I remember involves his withdraw at Ostagar.

[DinkyD]

Wow, I didn't remember she just comes out and says it. Just went and checked to see if I was right.

 

Anora after you ask her if she's uncomfortable siding against her father:

 

"Yes, of course, do you think I'm heartless? But how much worse would I be if I calmly stood by the man who murdered my husband"?

 

From Loghain's own codex:

 

"Loghain's supporters found themselves fighting with their neighbours, who blamed Loghain for the death of the King"

[Monica21]

He believes that it is not a blight. He also blames Orlay for the death of his mother when he was a kid.
When Kalyan orders the warden to light the tower. He changes his mind to leave.
He thinks Orlay will invade with the help of the wardens.
To him the warden is a spy for Orlay. He only changes his mind when you beat him or get him to join the wardens. In other words he is a crazie old fart.

 

Loghain has no reason to believe it's a Blight. No one has seen a Blight for 400 years, and really, Duncan looks like the the crazy old man who "believes" but fails to communicate that effectually to Ferelden's leaders.

 

Orlais actually is to blame for the death of his mother. They raped and killed her right in front of him and his father.

 

Loghain withdrew his troops because the forces on the ground were already being overwhelmed. You save the forces you have instead of fighting a battle you don't know if you can win. Sun Tzu: "If fighting is sure to result in victory, then you must fight, even though the ruler forbid it; if fighting will not result in victory, then you must not fight even at the ruler's bidding."

 

Per Return to Ostagar, Cailan was in the early stages of "putting Anora aside" and marrying Celene. That's a much easier way for Orlais to take Ferelden than to have Orlesian forces on the ground. In other words, Loghain wasn't wrong to be concerned about continued Orlesian interests in Ferelden, he was just wrong about who.

[Xetykins]

Blight or no blight only a total idiot ignores the magnitude of devastation the darkspawn is capable of. He himself has seen it in ostagar even on the skirmish, the tainted people and the land. Yet his warmongering againts the nobles is more mportant. Inquisition confirms his inactivity.

[TEWR]

So Loghain, the man who said after Ostagar, that the nation must be united to face the Darkspawn without hesitation, is to blame for the nobles deciding to ignore him and wage a civil war against him that forced him to deal with them, because you can't fight a war on multiple fronts very well?

 

The Bannorn would block his way to the south to fight the Darkspawn. Leaving his lands (those allied with him) without sufficient ground forces would result in the Bannorn taking control of them. Moreover, had he attempted to go south the Bannorn could harass his supply routes.

 

I see many people who take issue with what Loghain did, but none of them have really ever pointed out anything from a proper military and strategic standpoint. Most of what they say comes from the romanticized version of how wars are fought.

 

Dangerous line of thought.

[Xetykins]

Well inquisition said that some of the nobles are not happy with his inactivity againts the darkspawn. So i highly doubt that those same nobles would block loghains way if thats his intent. Buuuuut.. he doesnt believe its a blight anyway even if its poking him in the ass. I just dont believe the loghain in the books would do this its so ooc.

[TEWR]

His "inactivity" was the result of his desire to do something being blocked by altruistic yet shortsighted people like Teagan (who was not even at Ostagar, yet speaks with certainty on what transpired). Moreover, his own codex says some nobles just wanted to take advantage of the power vacuum and that's why they fought against him.

 

He doesn't believe it's a Blight (but then again, neither did Cailan. Nor a lot of people. Loghain's hardly the singular entity here) and I understand why he didn't believe it, but never once did he say the Darkspawn weren't a threat to the nation. He underestimated how much of a threat, but he was always cognizant that they were a threat to the nation.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

So Loghain, the man who said after Ostagar, that the nation must be united to face the Darkspawn without hesitation, is to blame for the nobles deciding to ignore him and wage a civil war against him that forced him to deal with them, because you can't fight a war on multiple fronts very well?

 

The Bannorn would block his way to the south to fight the Darkspawn. Leaving his lands (those allied with him) without sufficient ground forces would result in the Bannorn taking control of them. Moreover, had he attempted to go south the Bannorn could harass his supply routes.

 

I see many people who take issue with what Loghain did, but none of them have really ever pointed out anything from a proper military and strategic standpoint. Most of what they say comes from the romanticized version of how wars are fought.

 

Dangerous line of thought.

Eirene's argument against withdrawing from Ostagar was the entirely military, entirely legitimate argument that there were no better positions to hold against the darkspawn if they got past Ostagar. The idea, I think, is that if Loghain can't win there he can't win anyway. I'm not sure I agree that that's a good reason to take a no-win charge, but it's not quite as bad as you describe.

[Xetykins]

Call teagan short sighted. What do you expect an uncle to react when his nephew got killed and loghain puffing his chest out and demanding everyone bow down to him? You dont really expect a Guerrin to just drop on his knees straight away without question do you? I cant remember what exactly he said in that scene but i cant recall him rallying the people againts the darkpawn which killed the king. Teagan wont react the same otherwise.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Call teagan short sighted. What do you expect an uncle to react when his nephew got killed and loghain puffing his chest out and demanding everyone bow down to him? You dont really expect a Guerrin to just drop on his knees straight away without question do you? I cant remember what exactly he said in that scene but i cant recall him rallying the people againts the darkpawn which killed the king. Teagan wont react the same otherwise.

That is pretty much exactly what the scene shows Loghain trying to do. And while Teagan arguably had legitimate reasons to be concerned about what had happened, in the short term I pretty much expect a Guerrin to just drop on his knees straight away without question. Unless it becomes clear Loghain is not fighting the darkspawn, one of their incursions is not the time for this.

[Merle McClure II]

I'm not sure that I'd agree since as far as everyone can see at the time Loghain is taking a advantage of a non-Blight and loss of the King to seize the throne in all but name, raising up against Loghain's power grab and the resulting civil war actually makes a lot of sense, just as the people who are actually affected by the Blight blaming the man in charge for not doing anything, rightly or wrongly.   

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'm not sure that I'd agree since as far as everyone can see at the time Loghain is taking a advantage of a non-Blight and loss of the King to seize the throne in all but name, raising up against Loghain's power grab and the resulting civil war actually makes a lot of sense, just as the people who are actually affected by the Blight blaming the man in charge for not doing anything, rightly or wrongly.   

The problem is is that barring information nobody in Ferelden at the time can reasonably be expected to act upon (that there is an Archdemon and that Wardens are literally necessary, which for most of the game only Riordan knows) Loghain is neither the more immediate threat nor the more serious one. Loghain can probably be taken down after the darkspawn all have, and if he can't be then less damage will be done than if the darkspawn had won: Loghain's endgame, if you put the very worst construction on his actions, is that he rules Ferelden. In the darkspawn's endgame... well, what Ferelden? Whether or not he killed Cailan, Loghain is from all Teagan can tell the lesser threat. Therefore deposing or assassinating him ought to have come later, after he's either already won or proven himself incapable of it. (That said, if Teagan had been thinking pragmatically all of Ferelden probably would have died, so hooray for irrationality I suppose.)

[Merle McClure II]

I disagree, the Darkspawn historically are only the greater threat IF it really is a Blight, if it is indeed merely a "large raid" as everyone thought at the time and Ostagar's lost was blamed mostly on Loghain's withdrawal (As I seem to recall the survivor's nearly universally cursing Loghain.) there isn't a reason not to think that the Darkspawn was the greater threat.

Modifié par Merle McClure II, 17 décembre 2014 - 04:14 .