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[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I disagree, the Darkspawn historically are only the greater threat IF it really is a Blight, if it is indeed merely a "large raid" as everyone thought at the time and Ostagar's lost was blamed mostly on Loghain's withdrawal (As I seem to recall the survivor's nearly universally cursing Loghain.) there isn't a reason to think that the Darkspawn was the greater threat.

Except that they poison and destroy everything they touch. Loghain only does this figuratively.

 

After the loss at Ostagar, the darkspawn don't retreat underground despite the fact that they've done a whole lot of destroying, and have little more close by to destroy unless they go north into the areas the nobles fighting Loghain are responsible for protecting. If you combine that with their brutality and the fact that they had the numbers to destroy what Ceorlic refers to as "half of [Ferelden's] army" that's more than enough reason to figure that whatever they're preparing to do is worse than what Loghain wants to do. And if there's even a chance they can accomplish it, it seems to me that Loghain drops a rank on any benevolent and rational man's priority list unless that man knows things that Teagan and the other nobles did not.

[TEWR]

It doesn't matter if people believe it's a Blight or not. The point is they're literally being invaded by a highly dangerous force. Fighting against Loghain, whom as River pointed out is the lesser threat, is shortsighted.

 

Only fools fight over a home as it burns down around them.

[sylvanaerie]

Sorry, but I don't buy that.  Loghain should have known better than to quit the field, run all the way back to Denerim to grab the throne from his daughter and then demand everyone go all the way back and deal with the threat.  And over the course of the year instead of dealing diplomatically, or allowing Anora to do what she does best, he insists he's the only one who can deal with the threat, but quite clearly does nothing as the darkspawn continue to sweep across Ferelden laying waste to whole tracts of the country.

Seriously?  "The Darkspawn are such a huge threat, I ran all the way to Denerim to deal with them." doesn't hold water with me in the logic scale.  

Retreating from a superior foe, sure, i can accept that.  But retreating across the entire nation, then ignoring the threat to fight with your fellow countrymen is just as stupid and shortsighted as those countrymen opposing him.

Cailan was already gathering troops to Ostagar which was supposed to be a defensible position.  If they weren't able to handle it there, how the hell did Loghain expect retreating across country, leaving it wide ass open to invasion to grab at the throne is any more effective?  Didn't they have messengers to go to other locations?  Did he have to retreat completely across the nation to gather his support?  And wouldn't his daughter (the woman he insists is a 'strong queen') be much better at support getting than the man who is under suspicion for his actions on the battlefield?

While some of the nobles probably took advantage of the chaos to grab what power they could, those who had half a brain functioning in their skulls would wonder WTF Loghain was up to, because his actions look pretty damn suspect from the outside looking in, and his explanations of such (which are thin and vague at their kindest interpretation because he doesn't believe it's a blight any more than anyone else--he thinks the greater threat is Orlais) don't hold up under scrutiny.

 

Yes, we as players can see inside his head, have access to the cutscenes he's in, and the BSN boards where Gaider explains away his actions for his fans, but the characters in the game don't have this insight.  Is it small wonder that Teagan demands answers that weren't forthcoming from the General?

Loghain had no business grabbing at the throne.  Had he retreated to a reasonable location to deal with the threat, sent a letter to his daughter and gotten her support instead of letting his hubris undo him (and almost undo Ferelden) he'd get a lot more sympathy from me.  His biggest sin is his pride and boy what a fall that was...

[Merle McClure II]

Problem is that by the time it's clear that "their home" is actually burning down around their ears as opposed to Loghain allowing a grease fire to start in a kettle and using the smoke alarm as an excuse to forcibly sign the title of the house over to him the civil war has already begun and it's too late.

 

 

Because we have to remember that as far as the survivors of Ostagar are concerned (and those reports are the only ones that Teagan and company have to base their decisions on) Ostagar was lost because Loghain cut and ran. (Yes, I know that Ostagar was lost either way and YOU know that Ostagar was lost either way as well, but even Anora's quote sums up the way Ostagar is seen by the actors who DIDN'T get to see the bird eye's view of the hoard in the cut scene.)   

[TEWR]

Eirene's argument against withdrawing from Ostagar was the entirely military, entirely legitimate argument that there were no better positions to hold against the darkspawn if they got past Ostagar. The idea, I think, is that if Loghain can't win there he can't win anyway. I'm not sure I agree that that's a good reason to take a no-win charge, but it's not quite as bad as you describe.

 

I hadn't seen that one, but that is certainly a fair point to consider, although wars aren't always won through fortresses. Ostagar is an excellent defensive structure that was poorly used because the king demanded he have his glorious battle that everyone would sing of for centuries (from his honor guard) and Loghain had to find a plan that, based on what information they did have -- growing number of Darkspawn, delayed amount of troops, etc. -- would compensate for everything.

 

With Ostagar lost, there aren't as many structures within Ferelden (that we know of) that could help fight the Blight. But we still have limited information to go off of. There's a fortress in Inquisition that saw action during the Blight and was only really damaged when Emissaries came into the field.

 

It's certainly not a reason to take a no-win charge though.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Problem is that by the time it's clear that "their home" is actually burning down around their ears as opposed to Loghain allowing a grease fire to start in a kettle and using the smoke alarm as an excuse to forcibly sign the title of the house over to him the civil war has already begun and it's too late.

So, sign it over to him and let him put it out. Then start renegotiating the purchase.

[TEWR]

Seriously?  "The Darkspawn are such a huge threat, I ran all the way to Denerim to deal with them." doesn't hold water with me in the logic scale.

 

It's the one place where one can easily talk to all of the lords and ladies of Ferelden, as they're then amassed there. I'd say the Landsmeet was going to be called anyway, given that a short span of time exists between Ostagar and the scene itself. It's the best way to secure all the forces of Ferelden in one fell swoop, rather then having to deal with the petty grudges each and every lord will have.

 

"Why should I send my forces to defend my neighbor's lands? Or send them south, so my neighbor to the east can strike at me?"

 

If there's one thing people are, it's stupid. As that scene showed us, sadly.

 

And over the course of the year instead of dealing diplomatically, or allowing Anora to do what she does best, he insists he's the only one who can deal with the threat, but quite clearly does nothing as the darkspawn continue to sweep across Ferelden laying waste to whole tracts of the country.

 

Anora did try to get the lords and ladies to stop their fighting through diplomatic means. Many of those same lords and ladies ignored what she said, thinking that those words weren't her own and were her father's.

 

Anora was in fact doing as much as she was able to (both because Loghain did put her in a spot, but also because of Ferelden's systemic limitations bound by feudalism). She did damage control and allied with the most powerful person in the political spectrum at that time, hoping this would quell any chaos that might rise.

 

Siding with the banns on her part would've been wrong to do, as it would've fueled tensions and alienated her from her father and her father's military.

 

Beyond that, I believe that part of the reason Anora is kept at somewhat arm's length from the throne is due to Howe playing the part of Grima Wormtongue, more or less. Howe holds Anora in contempt (in fact, he's clearly a sexist) and wishes her dead and he manipulates Loghain -- Loghain is certainly a victim to Howe, though that alliance was necessary from a political/military standpoint at the time.

 

Howe is obsessed with gaining power for himself. I have no doubt he would look at Anora and do anything and everything to get Loghain to believe Anora can't rule at this time -- "She mourns her husband's death my lord. She is too stricken by emotions" -- because it would mean he, as Loghain's advisor, can continue to increase his power.

 

That doesn't excuse Loghain's lack of going to Anora for aid or advice on these matters, but I do think it at least mitigates it.

 

Also, Loghain was cognizant of the effect Cailan's death would have. Cailan is an heirless monarch with a wife that is, while admired, not secure in her leadership of the country (and many actually dislike her as well and would love to see her removed from power). He knew a power vacuum would open up so he filled it right away, hoping this would go towards preventing a civil war -- more so if he could get the army to fight the Darkspawn rather then each other. That's why he declared himself Regent, I suppose. Anora's still the Queen and she can't be ousted, though it does look suspicious to many.

 

 

Because we have to remember that as far as the survivors of Ostagar are concerned (and those reports are the only ones that Teagan and company have to base their decisions on) Ostagar was lost because Loghain cut and ran. (Yes, I know that Ostagar was lost either way and YOU know that Ostagar was lost either way as well, but even Anora's quote sums up the way Ostagar is seen by the actors who DIDN'T get to see the bird eye's view of the hoard in the cut scene.)   

 

There are numerous accounts from people who fought at Ostagar who actually back up Loghain's account of how the battle was a lost cause.

[sylvanaerie]

It's the one place where one can easily talk to all of the lords and ladies of Ferelden, as they're then amassed there. I'd say the Landsmeet was going to be called anyway, given that a short span of time exists between Ostagar and the scene itself. It's the best way to secure all the forces of Ferelden in one fell swoop, rather then having to deal with the petty grudges each and every lord will have.

 

"Why should I send my forces to defend my neighbor's lands? Or send them south, so my neighbor to the east can strike at me?"

 

If there's one thing people are, it's stupid. As that scene showed us, sadly.

 

 

 

 

Anora did try to get the lords and ladies to stop their fighting through diplomatic means. Many of those same lords and ladies ignored what she said, thinking that those words weren't her own and were her father's.

 

Anora was in fact doing as much as she was able to (both because Loghain did put her in a spot, but also because of Ferelden's systemic limitations bound by feudalism). She did damage control and allied with the most powerful person in the political spectrum at that time, hoping this would quell any chaos that might rise.

 

Siding with the banns on her part would've been wrong to do, as it would've fueled tensions and alienated her from her father and her father's military.

 

Beyond that, I believe that part of the reason Anora is kept at somewhat arm's length from the throne is due to Howe playing the part of Grima Wormtongue, more or less. Howe holds Anora in contempt (in fact, he's clearly a sexist) and wishes her dead and he manipulates Loghain -- Loghain is certainly a victim to Howe, though that alliance was necessary from a political/military standpoint at the time.

 

Howe is obsessed with gaining power for himself. I have no doubt he would look at Anora and do anything and everything to get Loghain to believe Anora can't rule at this time -- "She mourns her husband's death my lord. She is too stricken by emotions" -- because it would mean he, as Loghain's advisor, can continue to increase his power.

 

That doesn't excuse Loghain's lack of going to Anora for aid or advice on these matters, but I do think it at least mitigates it.

 

Also, Loghain was cognizant of the effect Cailan's death would have. Cailan is an heirless monarch with a wife that is, while admired, not secure in her leadership of the country (and many actually dislike her as well and would love to see her removed from power). He knew a power vacuum would open up so he filled it right away, hoping this would go towards preventing a civil war -- more so if he could get the army to fight the Darkspawn rather then each other. That's why he declared himself Regent, I suppose. Anora's still the Queen and she can't be ousted, though it does look suspicious to many.

 

 

There are numerous accounts from people who fought at Ostagar who actually back up Loghain's account of how the battle was a lost cause.

 

 

So send messengers to his daughter, have her deal with the diplomacy/political stuff while you dig in and prepare for the siege down south before the nation gets overrun.  Loghain's retreat across the nation for a landsmeet was pure stupidity.  He didn't have to be physically present and he didn't have to take the throne to do it.  Anora was quite popular--even as late as the game she held a lot of weight in the Landsmeet, you can only win it if you do the Crows quest or free Vaughan (don't have to do both) AND make all the right responses at the right time to maximize your approval in order to overthrow her vote.  So, him seizing the regency to protect her throne is hogwash.  He may have felt he had to, I'll give you that, but in the end, he didn't.  In fact, he made it worse for her and for everyone because of his hubris.

 

Laying his stupid all at Howe's feet is pure speculation and head canon.  At no point do we see in game Howe advising him to seize and hold the throne from Anora.  That was all Loghain.  Howe isn't even present in the Landsmeet when the announcement is made.  Howe was despicable, but laying the blame for everything Loghain did on him isn't backed up by game dialogue/events.  Nor do I think him ignoring his daughter's capabilities to listen to a man who even he dislikes mitigates his actions.  At all.  So he trusted Howe more than his own daughter?  I don't buy it.  And the scene where he ignores Howe's advice that if they don't deal with the darkspawn soon they won't have enough men to deal with it shows he didn't listen much to Howe either.  Maybe they meant for Howe's role to be meatier and paint Loghain in a better picture/light, but in game, as shown, I don't see it.

 

I'm sure Howe did a lot of stuff Loghain wasn't aware of, but no, I see Loghain grabbing at the throne as a means to protect Anora and it being his own idea, not Howe's.

[Merle McClure II]

... Still not getting the quote function to work, oh well ....

 

 

Riverdales ... I don't think that it's reasonable to expect people with Ferelden's recent history with being oppressed to quietly bend knee to someone who in their view murdered the King and seized the throne from his own daughter. The fact is that literally no-one in power realized that the Darkspawn really were as big as a threat as they turned out to be.

 

 

 

TEWR ... OK, all that proves is that the truth of Ostagar is murky at best in the eyes of the nobles, to the point that his own daughter is quoted in this thread as calling Loghain the murderer of her husband ... although I don't remember seeing these accounts from anyone who didn't already hold aliegance to Loghain, could you do me a favor and point out where they can be found?   

[sylvanaerie]

... Still not getting the quote function to work, oh well ....

 

 

Riverdales ... I don't think that it's reasonable to expect people with Ferelden's recent history with being oppressed to quietly bend knee to someone who in their view murdered the King and seized the throne from his own daughter. The fact is that literally no-one in power realized that the Darkspawn really were as big as a threat as they turned out to be.

 

 

 

TEWR ... OK, all that proves is that the truth of Ostagar is murky at best in the eyes of the nobles, to the point that his own daughter is quoted in this thread as calling Loghain the murderer of her husband ... although I don't remember seeing these accounts from anyone who didn't already hold aliegance to Loghain, could you do me a favor and point out where they can be found?   

 

The only objective perspective I've seen on the events in Ostagar (in game) is from a quote in Inquisition, speaking to Solas:

Spoiler

If you speak to Solas about things he's seen in the fade, he talks about Ostagar from the perspective of both sides of the arguement.  It's all in the perceptions/emotions of those present.

 

And deliberately left murky/vague and up to player interpretation.

[TEWR]

TEWR ... OK, all that proves is that the truth of Ostagar is murky at best in the eyes of the nobles, to the point that his own daughter is quoted in this thread as calling Loghain the murderer of her husband ... although I don't remember seeing these accounts from anyone who didn't already hold aliegance to Loghain, could you do me a favor and point out where they can be found?   

 

Oh I didn't know you wanted non-Loghain supporters in-game who said as much. But that'd be a tall order. If they believe him, why wouldn't they support him?

 

Many nobles do believe him, and in fact throw their lot in with him. Just as well, a lot of nobles are still somewhat curious about the events at Ostagar (despite the fact Loghain told them everything, from Cailan's charge to his perception that the Wardens were betraying the king, which has evidence to go for it. A lot in fact, though still wrong) like Leonas Bryland.

 

Also, many of the soldiers who were there believe it was a lost cause.

 

Spoiler

But Solas in Inquisition phrases the debates perfectly, as he saw both sides of the argument. He saw a veteran commander who saw a lost cause and wanted to save what he could... and he saw soldiers fighting to their last while a power-mad villain sneered and walked away.

[sylvanaerie]

Oh I didn't know you wanted non-Loghain supporters in-game who said as much. But that'd be a tall order. If they believe him, why wouldn't they support him?

 

Many nobles do believe him, and in fact throw their lot in with him. Just as well, a lot of nobles are still somewhat curious about the events at Ostagar (despite the fact Loghain told them everything, from Cailan's charge to his perception that the Wardens were betraying the king, which has evidence to go for it. A lot in fact, though still wrong) like Leonas Bryland.

 

Also, many of the soldiers who were there believe it was a lost cause.

 

Spoiler

But Solas in Inquisition phrases the debates perfectly, as he saw both sides of the argument. He saw a veteran commander who saw a lost cause and wanted to save what he could... and he saw soldiers fighting to their last while a power-mad villain sneered and walked away.

 

I think he means "anyone who isn't already a sycophant" like Cauthrien.  

Again in Inquisition:

 

Spoiler

The quartermaster in Haven is a soldier from Ostagar who was one of the ones who retreated in Loghain's army who stands by his choice to leave when he did.  I suppose she had a stake in it in that she survived, but still it was 10 years later and Loghain was executed in my game for his crimes so she wasn't in a strong position to defend him.  Yet, she did.  I guess that's about as objective (aside from Solas' fade musings) as you are going to get from a human who was there, since she has nothing to gain at this point by making her viewpoint clear.

[Merle McClure II]

You see THAT'S my point, claiming that refusing to bend knee to Loghain is akin to foolishly fighting over a burning house is nonsensical. The nobles who believe Loghain's account support him and see his power grab as necessary, the nobles who don't believe him fall in with the rebels and see his power grab as sneering villainy, and the ones who don't know what to believe are caught in the middle. (Although I seem to remember there being ALOT of head scratching and doubt over the "evidence" of the Warden's betrayal in game.)

 

 

--- Although not to be misunderstood what I was actually asking about is reports from people who were at Ostagar who saw things "Loghain's way" who weren't already loyal to Loghain since you brought up the idea that there are numerous accounts that back up Loghain's accounting of Ostagar to counter the "anti-Loghain" survivor reports that the nobles would have heard. 

 

 

--EDIT--

 

Aye, Sylvanaerie has the right of it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

... Still not getting the quote function to work, oh well ....

 

 

Riverdales ... I don't think that it's reasonable to expect people with Ferelden's recent history with being oppressed to quietly bend knee to someone who in their view murdered the King and seized the throne from his own daughter. The fact is that literally no-one in power realized that the Darkspawn really were as big as a threat as they turned out to be.

I don't think the true danger they pose becomes obvious until the endgame, when Riordan realizes that he and the other scouts had mistaken some outliers for the actual horde. But the nobles were just being irresponsible if they missed that this "large raid" was an actual threat.

 

I'm not saying that this was enough to put Loghain on the throne permanently. I am saying that if they were being at all rational, the opposition would have met behind Loghain's back, let him do what was needed to kill the spawn, and only begun dissenting when Loghain had either destroyed the "large raid" or conclusively failed to so do. (Though again, being so rational might have destroyed their country due to the Warden secrets which they wouldn't have been able to use as premises for their logic.)

[Merle McClure II]

You see I see that idea as suggesting the nobles should allow Loghain to consolidate his hold on power, use his command of the armies to weaken the banns he saw as potential threats, and either leading the nation to ruin (if you believe he's at fault for losing Ostagar) OR emerging victorious over the Darkspawn and using that feather in his cap to cement his position on the throne permanently.  I just don't see that as being "the rational option" if you aren't already pro-Loghain in the first place.

 

 

Also please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim that the nobles didn't see the Darkspawn as an "actual threat", just that they weren't a large enough threat to risk allowing Loghain to remain on the throne, something which quite frankly I think everyone believed, including Loghain.

[Xetykins]

The wardens has the right to keep their secrets tho. Who in their right minds except for a handful of people would become one where you have 70ish % deathrate and die killing an archdemon if you survive. And i dont believe loghain didnt know that wardens are needed to end blights because im sure he's read about the accountings of the previous 4 blights im sure theyre pretty historical. Unless he's totally illiterate. Because if one has witnessed what happened at ostagar that apparently made the supposedly the greatest general and tactician of ferelden walk. Then he should have taken it seriously. Warn the bannorn and the people on the way. But instead he left men in lothering just for the sole purpose of killing off 2 greeeen wardens. Nowhere did i see that loghains men were warning the people and help them evac.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

The wardens has the right to keep their secrets tho. Who in their right minds except for a handful of people would become one where you have 70ish % deathrate and die killing an archdemon if you survive. And i dont believe loghain didnt know that wardens are needed to end blights because im sure he's read about the accountings of the previous 4 blights im sure theyre pretty historical. Unless he's totally illiterate. Because if one has witnessed what happened at ostagar that apparently made the supposedly the greatest general and tactician of ferelden walk. Then he should have taken it seriously. Warn the bannorn and the people on the way. But instead he left men in lothering just for the sole purpose of killing off 2 greeeen wardens. Nowhere did i see that loghains men were warning the people and help them evac.

I am not denying the right of the Wardens to keep their secrets. I am denying the right of the Wardens to keep these secrets from battlefield commanders who need to know them. Seriously, all hope of ending the Blight without Orlesian involvement could have ended if Cailan hadn't decided (apparently spur of the moment) to put Alistair and the Warden in a safe place.

 

But since Loghain wasn't given those secrets, I do not blame him for making decisions that look really stupid in the context of these secrets: the Wardens claim to be literally necessary, and while Loghain is by no means a logical man a logical man would conclude, as he did, that that isn't true. Anyone who does not know the secret explanation of why the Wardens are literally necessary should conclude that that's just puffery given the extraordinary nature of the claim versus the evidence the history presents. (The fact that the historical Wardens were the ones to kill all the previous Archdemons is not sufficient evidence for their claims that it could not have been otherwise.)

 

I agree that Loghain was lax in not warning people to evacuate, however as for warning the Bannorn? That's pretty much what he was doing. He came back to Denerim, and told the assembled nobles that they needed a new army to face the darkspawn. His only mention of the Orlesians in his speech to the Landsmeet seems to have been as a motivation to get the darkspawn as quickly as possible.

 

You see I see that idea as suggesting the nobles should allow Loghain to consolidate his hold on power, use his command of the armies to weaken the banns he saw as potential threats, and either leading the nation to ruin (if you believe he's at fault for losing Ostagar) OR emerging victorious over the Darkspawn and using that feather in his cap to cement his position on the throne permanently.  I just don't see that as being "the rational option" if you aren't already pro-Loghain in the first place.

 

 

Also please don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to claim that the nobles didn't see the Darkspawn as an "actual threat", just that they weren't a large enough threat to risk allowing Loghain to remain on the throne, something which quite frankly I think everyone believed, including Loghain.

Assuming for the sake of argument that Loghain's goal was the throne, there is a very real chance that what I suggest would end with him getting it. I have never denied that. That said, the darkspawn "incursion" had by this point established itself as a credible threat to anyone who both knew history and was paying attention to what had happened in the south: that Loghain claiming the throne through regicide was in and of itself more dangerous than they were (assuming he succeeded) is not a very easy case to make. If nothing else Teagan and the others could have complained to the Crows. Loghain making things worse is another danger I'd acknowledged, but I'd pointed out that the opposition could attempt to overthrow him (or Crow him) when the trend becomes obvious.

[Xetykins]

If he was that good he would take everything to account. With that magnitude of distruction he has witnessed he just cannot dismiss a very old order thats been fighting darkspawns and ending 4 blights. Only an idiot would. And the wardens "ferelden" wardens dying at ostagar wasnt enough for him. Instead of warning people he made it his life quest to kill the 2 last very young and very new wardens too. I dont get that. The only thing i could come up with is him trying to hide his stink. Im only going to comment about whats been shown in the game. Not post game wog tidbits.

[sylvanaerie]

Oh I didn't know you wanted non-Loghain supporters in-game who said as much. But that'd be a tall order. If they believe him, why wouldn't they support him?

 

Many nobles do believe him, and in fact throw their lot in with him. Just as well, a lot of nobles are still somewhat curious about the events at Ostagar (despite the fact Loghain told them everything, from Cailan's charge to his perception that the Wardens were betraying the king, which has evidence to go for it. A lot in fact, though still wrong) like Leonas Bryland.

 

Also, many of the soldiers who were there believe it was a lost cause.

 

Spoiler

But Solas in Inquisition phrases the debates perfectly, as he saw both sides of the argument. He saw a veteran commander who saw a lost cause and wanted to save what he could... and he saw soldiers fighting to their last while a power-mad villain sneered and walked away.

 

Had some sleep and can argue this.

 

Loghain didn't tell them jack-all what happened.  He said the Wardens got the king killed--false, Cailan's glory-hounding got Cailan killed.  There was no evidence the wardens betrayed the king at all because it didn't happen.  Any 'evidence' he had was made up in his head since it was just untrue.

 

If Loghain was so forthcoming and 'told them everything' why is Teagan having a 'wtf' moment on the floor wanting to know what happened at Ostagar?  I should think if he got the answers he was seeking, he wouldn't be demanding them.  And what was the answer he got?  Threats from the new regent.  Even his own daughter gets some vague response of "Cailan's death was his own doing" without explanation when she asks "Did you kill Cailan?"  Even she has her doubts.  And even as late as the second landsmeet, with a blight clawing at the land Arl Bryland still asks wtf happened at Ostagar?

 

Everything he's done since Ostagar is extremely suspect unless you just bury your head in the sand or are a complete sycophant who accepts whatever he says as gospel.  And what answers does he offer?  He passes the buck for his mistakes on Howe, (a dead man) or starts deflecting his culpability by shouting about Orlesians and how he was the only one who saved Ferelden back in the day.  

 

And if you argue that Loghain (who was there) didn't believe it was a blight, or know about the grey wardens and their connection to the Blight, then the nobles at the Landsmeet had no reason to believe that either.  

There is a power vacuum because of all that loss in Ostagar, and what's the first thing the nobility see Loghain do?  Quit the field, traipse across the country and seize the throne.  Why should they believe his motives are anything less than consolidating his power and using the excuse of 'a darkspawn incursion' to get their men killed and hold onto the throne, eliminating his opposition?

[Xetykins]

Yeah, the whole map is almost all covered in a year and he's still sprouting "THE ORLESIANS" at the landsmeet. The blight was pretty much poking him in the arse but still "the orlesians". If the pc didnt bring the blight up so arl wulf cant comment, i cant remember if he even mentions it. One enemy at a time and the nearest threat first. That pretty much sums up that first meeting with teagan.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yeah, the whole map is almost all covered in a year and he's still sprouting "THE ORLESIANS" at the landsmeet. The blight was pretty much poking him in the arse but still "the orlesians". If the pc didnt bring the blight up so arl wulf cant comment, i cant remember if he even mentions it. One enemy at a time and the nearest threat first. That pretty much sums up that first meeting with teagan.

Loghain says "Stand with me and we shall defeat even the Blight itself" at the end of his speech at the endgame Landsmeet. As for the Orlesians, he's not arguing that Ferelden should start a war with them: in fact he doesn't even directly mention them during the Landsmeet you see the last few minutes of in the cutscene before you meet Dog again. His most radical position is that the Orlesians and those who have shown a historical tendency to enable them (as I am given to understand the Wardens have, even without Loghain's flawed but understandable belief that the beacon being lit late was part of an Orlesian plot) should be kept out of the country, and that Ferelden can defeat the Blight on their own (plus or minus the Marcher assistance he is established in DA2 as having courted and to some degree received.)

 

That Loghain can defeat the Blight without using Wardens is a false proposition, but one which looks credible if you don't know exactly why that's not the case. Riordan even states that if it weren't for that last, deepest secret the Wardens have any skilled warrior could kill an Archdemon, and between Loghain himself, Cauthrien, and the entire country of semi-barbarians he's on the throne of (not to mention any Marchers Harriman could scare up) I don't think Loghain is hurting for those. And really, was he supposed to assume the Wardens had such a secret without them quietly volunteering that they do?

[Merle McClure II]

Xetykins ... I don't blame the Wardens for keeping the secret of the Joining, although I seriously doubt the death rate is actually that great once we consider the results of all the Joinings we witness or hear about through the series. However, the fact that only a Warden can actually kill an Archdemon is something that should have been made perfectly clear to whoever was leading the armies against the Blight (That entire "two souls" detail can be skipped.). --- On the other hand ... does anyone actually believe that Loghain would have accepted the concept as opposed to seeing it as a self engrandizing legend spread by the Wardens.

 

 

Riverdales ... I think you are missing the point that at the point in time when the nobles had to choose whether to bend knee or stand against Loghain all the Drakspawn had actually done is overrun Ostagar and rampage through the wilds. On the converse Loghain, who's culpability in losing Ostagar is ... murky ... at best according to the information that the nobles had at the time, has just used Callian's death (Which his own daughter blames him for murdering.) as an excuse to seize the throne from his own daughter (Something that quite frankly wasn't necessary IF Loghain wasn't intending on seizing the throne for himself.) -- It's easy to see how Loghain can be seen as the immeditate threat.      

 

 

--EDIT--

 

Perhaps a better way to put it is this ... when you have an enemy banging down the gates of your city (Loghain) how much attention can you really afford to give the enemy lurking on the outskirts of your kingdom that no-one actually cares about anyways (The Darkspawn in the Wilds.)

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Riverdales ... I think you are missing the point that at the point in time when the nobles had to choose whether to bend knee or stand against Loghain all the Drakspawn had actually done is overrun Ostagar and rampage through the wilds.

I am not missing that. I am missing how they could conclude that worse wasn't going to happen very soon if someone didn't do something about it. I get the feeling I'd understand the position I'm arguing against a lot better if someone explained either how they came to that conclusion, or what similar conclusion they came to that I'm mistaking for it.

 

 

Perhaps a better way to put it is this ... when you have an enemy banging down the gates of your city (Loghain) how much attention can you really afford to give the enemy lurking on the outskirts of your kingdom that no-one actually cares about anyways (The Darkspawn in the Wilds.)

What I'm asking, though, is why didn't they care? If Loghain wins, he gets the throne for as long as he can keep it. And even if he wins past the point where he can reasonably be expected to be overthrown by force, that's what the Crows and the Friends are for. The darkspawn are trying to pillage and burn and taint. Any minor win they get is a minor win that can never be healed, and if they win outright Ferelden loses horribly.

 

The damage Loghain can do can be repaired or stopped. The darkspawn are a different matter.

[Merle McClure II]

Why didn't the nobles care about the barbarian infested wilds that is part of the kingdom in name only? -- Simple, there isn't anything in the Wilds that they really care about to the point where I don't think anyone REALLY knows what is beyond them. (I seem to recall tales that the Wilds turn into icy tundra being mentioned.)

 

 

Why didn't the nobles care about the Darkspawn Hoard lurking in the Wilds when said Hoard would likely strike further North into the Kingdom proper? --- I think that they did care, but the power mad, King slaying, would-be Tyrant on the throne is the more immediate threat to them, the Hoard MIGHT turn north sometime in the future and based off the evidence that everyone had, the ONLY battle the Hoard won was Ostagar and it's easy to blame Loghain for that. As for the Crows? Meh, they really don't seem to be all that effective or influenceal away from their home nation considering their willingness to subcontract out to the Warden.  

[Xetykins]

Yeah even the blight itself... after we deal with the orlesians at the border! And did he say that after you recruit him or after wulf made the comment? And seriously the orlesians screwed up tthe beacon? Where did it say in game? And why did he try to slaughter the 2 FERELDEN wardens who lit the beacon?

And again my point stands any good general/ tactician would consider help from all sides specially those who have been fighting those monsters that made him err tactically retreat. Use the 2 remaining wardens what they know. I understand he cannot have the orlesians into ferelden so he should gathen as much of ferelden as he can. Instead hes warmongering with the nobles and stealing lands. Yeah the stealing lands would deffo help loghain in his cause to unite whats left of ferelden for the blight. Like the whole time after ostagar he sits in denerim and sends his minions to do his dirty jobs.

But yeah at the end of the day you take what you have specially from a 900 yr old order whos fighting darkspawn the entire time not kill them offl. Things are really THAT dire, too bad he cant see that beyond the "ohleeesians"=


@Merle i doubt he would accept that concept too. Probably just laugh at their faces and.dismiss them as mental cases.

And for the record if Loghain came clean before my sword is an inch away from his throat and actually seeked atonement before then i would have no problems taking him in. Just like Sten, Zev, and blackwall.