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[TheRevanchist]

So, I am left confused by Bull, and Krem, and the open acceptance of Krem within the Qun according the Bull. Sten cannot believe your Warden is a woman, he is left dumbfounded by this fact. "A woman does not fight, why would a woman wish to be a man, it makes no sense." Yet here we have Krem, a woman who lives like a man, and Bull tells us, the Qun has NO PROBLEMS with this idea at all. Did Sten not get this memo? because he seems totally lost on something even related to this concept.

 

 

Sten seems far more loyal to the Qun than Bull is, true, but should that not imply he understands it just as well, if not better? Why is this concept so confusing to him, if the Qun already has a name for people like this, and openly accept them? 

 

 

I am simply confused, much like Sten. It does not add up to me. 

[Kevs]

Okay, this is a long stretch, but maybe it has something to do with Krem acting completely like a guy?

 

In one of the Skyhold conversations with the Iron Bull and his Chargers, he teases Krem with something like ". . .this is why the Qun doesn't let women fight". So what I gather is, the Qun doesn't want women, who act/live like women, to fight. However, it's okay if it's for a woman who acts and lives completely like a man to fight.

[Nyaore]

Bull explains it, saying that if a woman wants to fight within the Qun and is suited for it she effectively BECOMES a man within the eyes of their society. 

[Ieldra]

Bull explains it, saying that if a woman wants to fight within the Qun and is suited for it she effectively BECOMES a man within the eyes of their society.

This is not how it came across from Sten.

[DarkSpiral]

Well, it isn't stated outright, but Bull's attitude and Sten's aren't quite incompatible, if you accept that under the Qun, Krem is a man.  Which Bull says, with strong emphasis.  "They are real men, just like you are!"

[TheRevanchist]

I smell a retcon driven by policital correctness. I don't have a problem with the new stance, but I wish the DA team would stop butchering its own lore as soon as it becomes inconvenient. 

 

I suspect as much, but they would surely deny it. But I have no proof of it and won't point fingers.

[TheRevanchist]

Well, it isn't stated outright, but Bull's attitude and Sten's aren't quite incompatible, if you accept that under the Qun, Krem is a man.  Which Bull says, with strong emphasis.  "They are real men, just like you are!"

 

So then why does Sten not ask your Warden if she considers herself such a thing? He should know what this is, and it would be familiar to him.  

[DarkSpiral]

It isn't a retcon until it directly contradicts itself, which this narrowly avoids doing.

 

Also, lets be honest.  Bull isn't that strict a follower of the Qun.  When you do his personal quest, the dialog from the elven Ben-hassrath makes it pretty clear that some of the decision-makers have deep reservations of The Iron Bull.

[DarkSpiral]

So then why does Sten not ask your Warden if she considers herself such a thing? He should know what this is, and it would be familiar to him.  

Why does he refuse to teach you about the Qun, or his people.  Because he isn't a Tamassaran, and it isn't his role.

 

Unlike the Bull, Sten is a strict follower of the Qun.

[TheRevanchist]

Why does he refuse to teach you about the Qun, or his people.  Because he isn't a Tamassaran, and it isn't his role.

 

Unlike the Bull, Sten is a strict follower of the Qun.

 

Why does Sten question the Wardens sexuality at all then? He is not a Temassran right? He is confused, and seeks clarification. How to do you that? by asking questions. If this is not a blatant Retcon then Sten should be very much aware of this entire concept, and not look at your Warden like she is a damn alien. 

[Vormaerin]

Probably because its likely obvious she doesn't?  There's a huge and obvious difference between a woman warrior and a transgendered person.  Obviously, if your headcanon is that your warden is trans, then that's just something that BW didn't think of or consider likely enough to write specific dialogue for.  Otherwise, I'd assume that your warden accepts feminine pronouns in reference to herself and may have other feminine possessions and mannerisms.

[Drasanil]

Bull explains it, saying that if a woman wants to fight within the Qun and is suited for it she effectively BECOMES a man within the eyes of their society. 

 

Bull also says no one but the tamassarans really know the Qun, yet Sten says he, and every Qunary, learned the entire Qun by heart. Sten also has no concept of 'playing' where as Bull had a jolly good old childhood playing blocks with dear old mommy tamassaran.

 

Long story short, Bioware sanitized the Qun. And that really really sucks. What gave the Qun any tangible meaning was that it was an entirely alien way to organise a society, like a logic experiment gone wrong, and they took that away and made it dreadfully PC and 'safe'.

[TheRevanchist]

Bull also says no one but the tamassarans really know the Qun, yet Sten says he, and every Qunary, learned the entire Qun by heart. Sten also has no concept of 'playing' where as Bull had a jolly good old childhood playing blocks with dear old mommy tamassaran.

 

Long story short, Bioware sanitized the Qun. And that really really sucks. What gave the Qun any tangible meaning was that it was an entirely alien way to organise a society, like a logic experiment gone wrong, and they took that away and made it dreadfully PC and 'safe'.

 

My god I totally forgot about those details. Your absolutely right. 

[DarkSpiral]

Bull also says no one but the tamassarans really know the Qun, yet Sten says he, and every Qunary, learned the entire Qun by heart. Sten also has no concept of 'playing' where as Bull had a jolly good old childhood playing blocks with dear old mommy tamassaran.

 

Long story short, Bioware sanitized the Qun. And that really really sucks. What gave the Qun any tangible meaning was that it was an entirely alien way to organise a society, like a logic experiment gone wrong, and they took that away and made it dreadfully PC and 'safe'.

That's a kneejerk reaction with very little reliable evidence to back it up.  If we've never been exposed to the Qun, and we haven't, we've only been exposed to a few followers of the Qun, how can you possibly say that they changed it?

[DarkSpiral]

Why does Sten question the Wardens sexuality at all then? He is not a Temassran right? He is confused, and seeks clarification. How to do you that? by asking questions. If this is not a blatant Retcon then Sten should be very much aware of this entire concept, and not look at your Warden like she is a damn alien. 

Of course he asks questions.  Who said the Atnaam never asks questions?  The Tamassrans are just the only ones that teach the Qun, which Sten specifically refuses to do.

[TheRevanchist]

That's a kneejerk reaction with very little reliable evidence to back it up.  If we've never been exposed to the Qun, and we haven't, we've only been exposed to a few followers of the Qun, how can you possibly say that they changed it?

 

Because of the way members of the Qun behave and act? Mary told us that Sten is considered a Stand up Comedian by Qunari standards. If thats true Bull is a damn Court Jester. Something has changed, visible or not, in the way the Qun is now being presented. 

[Kevs]

 

Probably because its likely obvious she doesn't?  There's a huge and obvious difference between a woman warrior and a transgendered person.  Obviously, if your headcanon is that your warden is trans, then that's just something that BW didn't think of or consider likely enough to write specific dialogue for.  Otherwise, I'd assume that your warden accepts feminine pronouns in reference to herself and may have other feminine possessio ns and mannerisms.

This. A female Warden still acts like a female, who just happens to fight. Thus, the Qun sees the female Warden as a female who's trying to do a male's job. Krem on the other hand, acts like a guy all the way, and thus is a man under the Qun.

 

Bull also says no one but the tamassarans really know the Qun, yet Sten says he, and every Qunary, learned the entire Qun by heart. Sten also has no concept of 'playing' where as Bull had a jolly good old childhood playing blocks with dear old mommy tamassaran.

Chantry brothers and sisters memorize verses of the Chant for years. Heck, a part of their training mandates that they speak nothing but verses of the Chant, even in normal conversation. So you could say that every Chantry brother/sister and above knows the Chant by heart. Now, do all of them agree on it's meaning? Definitely not! The Qun is probably the same.

[Drasanil]

That's a kneejerk reaction with very little reliable evidence to back it up.  If we've never been exposed to the Qun, and we haven't, we've only been exposed to a few followers of the Qun, how can you possibly say that they changed it?

 

Because's Sten's behavior and his questions about generally society as a whole are completely incompatible with what Bull tells you about the Qun.

 

It's not a question of needing to see Qunari lands, nor is it that they were raised for different purposes, some things simply don't match up. Like Sten spending his childhood studying and memorizing the Qun [remember he's the soldier who only really needs to know how to hit things] and Bull the Ben-Hassarath [the religious police who should know the Qun inside out] not actually knowing the intricacies of what he is supposed to be upholding. 

[DarkSpiral]

Because of the way members of the Qun behave and act? Mary told us that Sten is considered a Stand up Comedian by Qunari standards. If thats true Bull is a damn Court Jester. Something has changed, visible or not, in the way the Qun is now being presented. 

And my early point, that the people that The Iron Bull answers to back home have deep reservations about him, stands.  Bull is in no way a typical follower of the Qun.  He was broken, turned himself in to the re-educators, and they stationed him as a spy, where he has gone native, so to speak.

[TheRevanchist]

 

 

This. A female Warden still acts like a female, who just happens to fight. Thus, the Qun sees the female Warden as a female who's trying to do a male's job. Krem on the other hand, acts like a guy all the way, and thus is a man under the Qun.

 

Chantry brothers and sisters memorize verses of the Chant for years. Heck, a part of their training mandates that they speak nothing but verses of the Chant, even in normal conversation. So you could say that every Chantry brother/sister and above knows the Chant by heart. Now, do all of them agree on it's meaning? Definitely not! The Qun is probably the same.

 

 

The Chantry does not have re-educators that "kindly remind you" of the Chant of Light when you voice a dissenting opinion.

[DarkSpiral]

Because's Sten's behavior and his questions about generally society as a whole are completely incompatible with what Bull tells you about the Qun.

 

*shrug*

 

I don't agree with you.

[DarkSpiral]

The Chantry does not have re-educators that "kindly remind you" of the Chant of Light when you voice a dissenting opinion.

What does that have to do with anything?

[TheRevanchist]

What does that have to do with anything?

That means the Qun does not really tolerate dissenting opinion. You said they are likely the same in having different opinions. 

[Icinix]

I'm still coming to terms with the fact Qunari got horns.

 

There was changes in DA2 and a few more in DAI, I'm generally not a fan of changes, but Dragon Age has now gotten bigger than what I imagine the lore and depth was ever intended to get. When it was being built, BioWare didn't do sequels.

 

However - for the sake of lore, I imagine Bull is less about the Qun and more about Krem being a friend when it comes to Krem.

[Drasanil]

Chantry brothers and sisters memorize verses of the Chant for years. Heck, a part of their training mandates that they speak nothing but verses of the Chant, even in normal conversation. So you could say that every Chantry brother/sister and above knows the Chant by heart. Now, do all of them agree on it's meaning? Definitely not! The Qun is probably the same.

 

1) The chanters are a special sub-section of brothers/sisters so that doesn't count. Furthermore it is hardly comparable to Sten's role with in the Qun.

 

2) There's a difference between not agreeing on something's meaning and being presented with two completely different versions of how society functions. Sten doesn't even understand the concept of 'playing' and sees no point to it. Where as Bull seemingly had a normal childhood minus a proper mommy and daddy. There is a huge difference between the two and given the Qun is about uniformity I doubt the kindergarden teachers are left to their own devices to decide how/what is the best way to teach the children.