646 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Sten also says while in the fade that is not how is companions were. He knew they weren't them. 

 

Well crap, now I don't need amendments. We really haven't seen a normal qunari who wasn't part of the military up until now.

 

Still don't remember him saying their behavior was odd. I remember him saying he knew they were fake because he remembered their deaths vividly.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Krem does not act like a guy. Krem is a man. People need to understand this about transgendered populations. 

 

Krem is a man by modern western civilization standards held by a portion of the population, yes.

 

Does that mean that the society who holds that "Only men fight" "Only women trade" "Only the religion oriented can work together" feels the same way?

[joejoe099]

Oy.

 

At what point exactly did I state that the Qun does not dictate your purpose?  Yoru example fails at every level, joejoe.  Furthermore, the Qunari do not brainwash you with qamek.  The qamek is the last resort option, where they lobotomize you and you spend the rest of your life a happy drooling idiot, performing simple menial tasks.  That isn't brainwashing you into the role they assign you, its erasing your mind so you can't argue anymore, and then making what use they can of your shell.

 

None of which has anything to do with whether or not Sten and The Iron Bull contradict one another.

 

And your 2nd part fails to make any logical sense.  I point out that the Qun handles things (in this case, transgenders) in a way that is alien to ours, which is to say that they don't have a problem with it, and have a word and role prepared for it already.  Our society does not.  We frequently revile these people, adn out them through hell if they won't conform to the established norm.  The fact the Qun does not, and handles it almost dismissively (what's that?  You were born a woman, but identify as a man?  Well, then you're a man.  Moving on to more important things, now!) is anything but sanitizing it, it makes it more controversial.  Its a gutsy move on Bioware's part.

 

What exactly about this situation makes the Qun more sanitary?  Less alien?  I'll wait.

 

The first part was to point out that all real qunari have the mentality of 'you're born with this purpose, and that's it'. Iron bull doesn't. There fore, is a poor source for Qun interpretation. Hell, he even says that the Qun is more of a guidance thing for him, not laws, yet every other qunari we've run into, both within his own branch of the Qun and not, have acted the same way. Which begs the question...why do they have a word for transexual people? They're defying their born purpose, they should be given qamek. That's the mentality Sten, The original Arishok and Rassan would have, each a qunari fully loyal to the qun and other qunari, yet Iron Bull, who on his own companion mission would rather see his Qunari brothers die than the natives he's hired, is giving us this sudden word that hasn't, nor ever was even hinted at that makes it accepted in their culture?

 

The second part, you and I must be part of different society's then, because if some one I know would do anything to imply a dismissive attitude towards trans people, they'd be nearly stoned to death, at least brow beaten into submission.

[Cainhurst Crow]

So maybe this is just me, but where in the game does it state that Krem is part of the Antaam? Iron bull states that krem is a man, but thats according to iron bull, the person whose already on thin ice with the aniqun and borderlining getting re-educated if not for his previous track record.

 

Can't help but feel he softened what happens to aqun-athlok up because, well, most likely he doesn't believe in what they do to them himself. This is the race who wipe out the minds of people who don't embrace their per-ordained roles in the qun or kill them outright for it. And this is the man who was willing to work under a heretic and didn't seem to have plans of re-educating them anytime soon.

 

Course they could simply demand they procreate with another man and leave it at that. Qunari and the Qun seem like a real mixed bag of highly progressive and heavily totalitarian conservative and its never easy to peg down what they'll do exactly.

[AEve1]

 

Ok, I actually dug into my freaking book collection just to find this hard bound comic, so stay with me here, also continuing what you mentioned. 2nd part, that's literally sanitizing it. Taking away the smudges that seem alien to people. These are a people that came from unmapped regions to the far north with freaking horns growing out of their heads. These people ARE aliens and their culture should reflect that. Hell, their aliens to themselves, being unaware of their own origins. I don't know what society you live in, but if anyone ever says that 'a woman/trans person can't do that' they're labeled as outdated hate mongers.

Pretty sure that the fact that this topic exists and has gathered so much attention is clear enough proof the Qunari's way of thinking is alien, since a lot of people can't conceive of a society where both 1) women's roles are restricted and 2) trans men do the same things cis men do. The Qunari DON'T think women can fill the same roles as men, but they DO think trans men can fill the same roles as cis men. So alien that we apparently can't wrap our heads around it....

 

A more relevant question, I think, is whether someone can declare themselves Aqun-Athlok at any time, or whether a Tamassran notices at an early age and then assigns them a job. My guess would be the latter. That way there's never an issue with their role changing, which would be Bad and Against the Qunari Way of Life.

[DarkSpiral]

The first part was to point out that all real qunari have the mentality of 'you're born with this purpose, and that's it'. Iron bull doesn't. There fore, is a poor source for Qun interpretation. Hell, he even says that the Qun is more of a guidance thing for him, not laws, yet every other qunari we've run into, both within his own branch of the Qun and not, have acted the same way. Which begs the question...why do they have a word for transexual people? They're defying their born purpose, they should be given qamek. That's the mentality Sten, The original Arishok and Rassan would have, each a qunari fully loyal to the qun and other qunari, yet Iron Bull, who on his own companion mission would rather see his Qunari brothers die than the natives he's hired, is giving us this sudden word that hasn't, nor ever was even hinted at that makes it accepted in their culture?

That makes more sense, thank you for the clarification.  Rassan however, is trying to break the will of a bas.  Sten and the Arishock are both speaking to a bas.  Sten, specifically, is speaking to a bas that is deviating from everything Sten has even been taught about how women behave.  None of the examples you cite are concrete examples of how Qunari raise children including children that are transgender.

 

We're discussing real world politics with the second part.  That's something I prefer to avoid most of the time, as its highly inflamatory.  As I don't know what part of the world you live in, or indeed if that area is far more liberal than my own society, I'm just going to let it lie.

[Equalitas]

Pointless discussion. Its so obvious that bioware writers changed it to make the Qun a little more gray and the game as a whole more inviting to more kinds of sexualities/genders. The Qun have strict roles. And Bull's role is to live as Ben Hassrath. And blending in (living like any human free of rules) is perfect for Bull's personality. Thats his way of the qun. 

[DarkSpiral]

 

Pointless discussion. Its so obvious that bioware writers changed it to make the Qun a little more gray and the game as a whole more inviting to more kinds of sexualities/genders. The Qun have strict roles. And Bull's role is to live as Ben Hassrath. And blending in (living like any human free of rules) is perfect for Bull's personality. Thats his way of the qun. 

 

To all of those that popped in here strictly to tell us we're wasting our time, and shouldn't bother.

 

Kindly ****** the hell off.  I enjoy speculation and theorycrafting.  The arguments on both sides have merit, and discussing them helps point out weaknesses in our views on Thedas' background.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Krem is a man, so yes.

 

Krem is an aqun-athlok, someone who is born one gender, but acts like another. If you can get show me where someone like Gat, or a loyal to the qun Iron Bull, who promotes the same idea, I'd be happy to concede your point.

 

I just don't think the qun thinks the same way, given that the one telling us that it does, is someone who by the quns standard is a borderline heretic. I have no problem thinking of Krem as a man, and I have no problem believing that someone like Iron Bull respects Krem enough to believe the same.

 

But I don't live by the Qun, and unless you as the player actively pushes it, neither does Iron Bull. And that's all I'm interested in talking about tbh, whether there was or wasn't a retcon and whether it does or doesn't conflict with established lore on the qunari, who have no obligation whatsoever to promote any idea of gender politics whatsoever, given how choice in procreation isn't even allowed under their system.

[KaiserShep]

Krem is not really part of the Qun anyway, so I don't suppose it matters. He even tells you himself that Bull hasn't tried to convert any of the Chargers.

[DarkSpiral]

Krem is an aqun-athlok, someone who is born one gender, but acts like another. If you can get show me where someone like Gat, or a loyal to the qun Iron Bull, who promotes the same idea, I'd be happy to concede your point.

 

I just don't think the qun thinks the same way, given that the one telling us that it does, is someone who by the quns standard is a borderline heretic. I have no problem thinking of Krem as a man, and I have no problem believing that someone like Iron Bull respects Krem enough to believe the same.

 

But I don't live by the Qun, and unless you as the player actively pushes it, neither does Iron Bull. And that's all I'm interested in talking about tbh, whether there was or wasn't a retcon and whether it does or doesn't conflict with established lore on the qunari, who have no obligation whatsoever to promote any idea of gender politics whatsoever, given how choice in procreation isn't even allowed under their system.

 

Its reasonable to assume that the version we hear from Bull is heavily skewed.  But to assume it doesn't even exist, just because he's clearly one small step away from being a true Tal-Vashoth, isn't reasonable.

 

Which isn't to say you're necessarily wrong.  I just don't think one definitely leads to the other.  I seem to recall Iron Bull having dialogue options about Krem and Aqun-Athlok after the cutscene with the Chargers.  I'll have to see if those (I'f I'm recalling their presence correctly at all) change if you wait until he reaffirms his position in the Qun to ask them.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Its reasonable to assume that the version we hear from Bull is heavily skewed.  But to assume it doesn't even exist, just because he's clearly one small step away from being a true Tal-Vashoth, isn't reasonable.

 

Which isn't to say you're necessarily wrong.  I just don't think one definitely leads to the other.  I seem to recall Iron Bull having dialogue options about Krem and Aqun-Athlok after the cutscene with the Chargers.  I'll have to see if those (I'f I'm recalling their presence correctly at all) change if you wait until he reaffirms his position in the Qun to ask them.

 

Who said anything about it not existing? I do believe that aqun-athlok is a real term in the qunlat, and I do believe they exist. I just don't think the qun accepts them the way iron bull is making it out to be. Like if Krem introduced himself as one to foreign Ben-Hassrath or maker forbid, a member of the Antaam, that his reception would be as warm and accepting as Iron Bull portrays it would be.

 

This is a group who doesn't hide that if you don't play by the rules they make, they'll lobotomize you and set you to work as a brain damaged slave. That they'll try everything to force you to conform to your destiny before that, and have no problem calling it what it is, re-education.

 

As it stands, theres not enough info to know one way or the other for me. Either Iron Bull was being nice and trying to not think how messed up the qun can be to someone like Krem. Or he was telling the truth, and this is just another bit of qunari weirdness and their child raising readers have a category for everyone.

[joejoe099]

That makes more sense, thank you for the clarification.  Rassan however, is trying to break the will of a bas.  Sten and the Arishock are both speaking to a bas.  Sten, specifically, is speaking to a bas that is deviating from everything Sten has even been taught about how women behave.  None of the examples you cite are concrete examples of how Qunari raise children including children that are transgender.

 

We're discussing real world politics with the second part.  That's something I prefer to avoid most of the time, as its highly inflamatory.  As I don't know what part of the world you live in, or indeed if that area is far more liberal than my own society, I'm just going to let it lie.

 

I believe both sten and bull mention that children are taken away from their parents at birth and put into special schools, almost like brave new world, only less clones, and before you say anything, I say bull's interpretation one their laws is wrong, not the goings on of their society. I'm not sure which one, but I do remember one of them mentioning it.

 

But my point is, if this word existed lore-wise prior, it would or should have been used as an example or hinted at to a Qunari trying to understand these alien people better. But it's not ever even hinted at. Then bull comes along and gives this supposed word out of no where. The entire thing just feels like panhandling retconing. These are people who have no way knowing some one is born trans, yet accept it regardless of having a mentality of 'you're born with a purpose, and you will live it no matter what'

 

And i think it's best we leave real world stuff out of it.

[Medhia_Nox]

I always felt like Sten was purposefully obtuse about everything concerning the Qun no matter how close he gets to the Warden. 

 

Much like Tevinter - I have never considered the years of headcanon confusion these forums invent to be "The Qun". 

[joejoe099]

[...]

 

Please stop. I'm actually enjoying this discussion and would rather it not be taken down due to stupidity.

Modifié par BioWareMod03, 07 décembre 2014 - 01:10 .
Edited to remove comments

[Chrom72]

For the record, I do enjoy the slight changes to the Qun that seem to be seeping in. It would be boring if the Qunari were just a big conquering wave of people who had each and every tiny detail of their life figured out for them (which I guess is still mostly true). But honestly, is it that hard to believe that what Bioware wanted the Qun to be during development of Origins could have changed by the time they started developing Inquisition? They plan out a lot of things ahead of time, but they don't plan everything out, and a lot of things they do plan out get changed down the road. Does anyone really think 

Spoiler

Leiliana was planned to be the Inquisition Spymaster during DAI? Or one of the three possible candidates to be the Divine? If they would have known that while making Origins they wouldn't have let us kill her at the Temple.

 

Edit: Just to be clear, I only brought up that mostly unrelated point at the end to show that it's not unheard for Bioware to change their mind about something between games. Beyond that, it has little to nothing to do with the Qun. 

[Equalitas]

Theorycrafting is fun when its a dilemma and about what has changed. But the op shown me clear evidence how it is a lore change. 
Dont get me wrong tho its a good change

[KaiserShep]

The Greater Internet ****wad Theory never fails.

[Bod02]

Theorycrafting is fun when its a dilemma and about what has changed. But the op shown me clear evidence how it is a lore change. 
Dont get me wrong tho its a good change

Oh I think you'll like this then:

http://youtu.be/PjnPyGFYKrI?t=2m43s

[daveliam]

You cis scum think you're so much smarter than everyone, don't you? I'm glad that cis scum Sten died in Lothering.

 

At least you are doing us all a favor and outing yourself as an immature troll just looking to rile people up.  Thanks for that.

[dlux]

Bioware retconned the Qunari and Qun.

 

They used to be a really interesting race, now they are just a bunch of warmongering goat men. I don't like them at all anymore.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord have mercy, what in the world is going on in here?