646 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Lord have mercy, what in the world is going on in here?

 

Come on in and talk about how someone views qunari politics is a 100% indicator of how they feel irl on gender issues.

 

Kick your feet up, 'n have a drink.

[DarkSpiral]

I suppose people like this one above are inevitable.  Moving on.

 

 

 

I believe both sten and bull mention that children are taken away from their parents at birth and put into special schools, almost like brave new world, only less clones, and before you say anything, I say bull's interpretation one their laws is wrong, not the goings on of their society. I'm not sure which one, but I do remember one of them mentioning it.

 

But my point is, if this word existed lore-wise prior, it would or should have been used as an example or hinted at to a Qunari trying to understand these alien people better. But it's not ever even hinted at. Then bull comes along and gives this supposed word out of no where. The entire thing just feels like panhandling retconing. These are people who have no way knowing some one is born trans, yet accept it regardless of having a mentality of 'you're born with a purpose, and you will live it no matter what'

 

And i think it's best we leave real world stuff out of it.

Oh, I doubt very much that Krem will get a positive response.  Krem is a bas first, in the eyes of pretty much any Qunari (except ones that are going native, Like The Iron Bull), and no mistake.  Unless he voluntarily joins the Qun, and thus becomes viddithari, he would have to be re-educated.

 

I just don't see how the idea that the Qun already has a definition, a sub-role if you will, ready and waiting for those that identify as a different gender than they were born as, is a contradiction with what we learned about the Qun previously.  It would be nice if Sten has used the term, but as DAI is the first game we have an NPC that is definitely transgender, the fact that neither he nor the Arishock didn't use it doesn't mean much.  Neither the Warden nor Hawke live a transgender life, setting aside any headcanon the player may assign to the character, so of course they (the Qunari characters) didn't use the term.

 

Now, its possible that the term Aqun-athlok is an addition, made recently because Bioware has decided to change where they're going with the Qunari.  I just can't  see it as a given.

[Lady Artifice]

Very true.

 

Oh and I am on the winning team!  All that magic and you can't see how you are destined to fail and have no chance?  Was losing the largest island in Thedas not a wake up call?  Turn your arrogance into submission to the Qun and you may not only yet live, but also become a part of something far greater than you could achieve on your own.

 

Strengthen the Qun!  Do not slap away my open hand.

 

 

You're too good for the Qun...It doesn't deserve you. It didn't deserve the last Arishok, either...and he died for it.

[Bod02]

Bioware retconned the Qunari and Qun.

 

They used to be a really interesting race, now they are just a bunch of warmongering goat men. I don't like them at all anymore.

It's a somewhat stupid retcon for sure, but how were they more interesting before?

[KainD]

I wonder what it means to be a man according to the Qun. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

It's a somewhat stupid retcon for sure, but how were they more interesting before?

 

Well obviously its because before, they looked like very tanned tall people with cornrows, and now they look weird and grey with horns.

 

Oh wait, wrong retcon.

 

But yeah, there's nothing thats really changed with this retcon besides introducing loopholes into the absolutism of the qun at most, if what iron bull said about them accepting krem's lifestyle holds water.

 

If DA2 didn't make you hate the qun, nothing really happens in DAI to change things much from DA2.

[TimXP]

I think there are two obvious explanations for the differences between Sten's understanding of the Qun and the Iron Bull's:

 

1. As others have pointed out, IRL, Bioware's writers have clearly developed new ideas/plans for the Qunari over the course of three games and assorted tie-ins and modified things accordingly. This has happened with pretty much every aspect of the series since DA:O, so I don't think it's particularly surprising or cause for anger. (Not even going to touch the anti-SJW stuff, which is pure trollery.)

 

2. In-story, the practice of the Qun is as rife with contradiction, hypocrisy, intrigue, and flat-out misunderstanding as any other ideology in recorded history. Sten learned something about the roles of men and women under the Qun and maybe half-understood it, then tried to explain it years later to an outsider in a language he admittedly wasn't comfortable with. The Iron Bull received the same teaching but interpreted it differently, maybe twisting it a bit to fit his view of his friend. And sure, there are secret police and brainwashing priests to "correct" anyone who gets out of line, but they're as subject to their own biases and conflicts of interest as anyone else, and they probably have bigger fish to fry than making sure everyone's on the same page about what it means to be a trans Qunari. Their society just isn't perfectly logical and monolithic, no matter how grumpily Sten insists otherwise.

[Geth Supremacy]

You're too good for the Qun...It doesn't deserve you. It didn't deserve the last Arishok, either...and he died for it.

 

The Qun makes us who we are.  How many bas have that resolve?  That FIRE in them?  To come out and cut all bs and say here we are.  This is what I'm about, This is what I think about your people, this is how it is, and this is how its going to happen.  Then turn around and be adored and liked because of it?  True honesty delivered only how a Qunari can give it.  With such a confidence to sit there and KNOW you are at the top of the food chain and who can stand against you?  Even you, a bas that will seemingly resist me until your last breath care for the last Arishok.  Do you not smile when you think of him?  You love that Qunari personality don't you? "No." "He invented a ask to prove his worth when he has none." "Why do you bother me human? I hire no blades and need no goods."  The last Arishok was mighty indeed.  It's a shame plot armor is so strong!

 

Arti, if your daggers and arrows are as sharp as your tongue then the Qun will see that.  You could be right at my side.  We could both be the military might of the Qun.   I have a drink I badly want to share with you as well.  You can have all of the Tevinter tears you want also!  We can always get more together.  Tevinters are all arrogant, selfish, and lazy.  They can do nothing without their all powerful crutch.  Their magic.  You are nothing like that.  It saddens me that you won't hear me.  You just want to deny me.  All of these idiots in this thread talking down on the Qun.  Many more enemies have been made today.  I don't want you being one.  Get over here.

 

[KainD]

They can do nothing without their all powerful crutch.  Their magic.  

 

 

Magic is not a crutch, it's a pair of wings. 

[Geth Supremacy]

Magic is not a crutch, it's a pair of wings. 

 

A great response, it really is.  Some truth to it also, but the fact remains without it you are nothing.  It is your crutch because you are so dependent on it, because you rely on it for everything.  Even to protect you and fight for you.  Some are even a slave to it.

[KainD]

A great response, it really is.  Some truth to it also, but the fact remains without it you are nothing.  It is your crutch because you are so dependent on it, because you rely on it for everything.  Even to protect you and fight for you.  Some are even a slave to it.

 

It is a part of who I am. You rely on your muscles to move and to fight, are they your crutch? True my other prowess are not as developed, but only because there is no point to it, as I have superior tools at my disposal. You would not pick a spoon to feed with your leg instead of your hand now would you? 

[Lexxbomb]

Have to admit at least Krem didn't go around screaming everyone is CIS Scum....
Heck even South Park commented on that with Cartman and the toilet

[Geth Supremacy]

It is a part of who I am. You rely on your muscles to move and to fight, are they your crutch? True my other prowess are not as developed, but only because there is no point to it, as I have superior tools at my disposal. You would not pick a spoon to feed with your leg instead of your hand now would you? 

 

Muscles are natural, built, earned, and trained.  Magic is a fluke, its dangerous and not of you.  There is no glory in being a tool of the fade or demons. 

 

When you build something and YOU do it all it means a lot more than if it was just given to you.

[Cainhurst Crow]

It is a part of who I am. You rely on your muscles to move and to fight, are they your crutch? True my other prowess are not as developed, but only because there is no point to it, as I have superior tools at my disposal. You would not pick a spoon to feed with your leg instead of your hand now would you? 

 

Your body is a crutch, constantly degrading and aging until one day, it will fail you and leave you standard in a helpless shell. Best you can do is accept it and make the most of your prison while your still able to. Magic is the same, it is a chain you are born wearing, and it binds you to danger every time you dream and every time you are in danger to forces beyond your control. It provides you power, only on its own terms, and it leaves you blind to other alternatives. Its not a superior tool, its having binoculars for eyes. You are skilled at seeing far, but now your sight is useless for all things close to you.

[Geth Supremacy]

Bioware retconned the Qunari and Qun.

 

They used to be a really interesting race, now they are just a bunch of warmongering goat men. I don't like them at all anymore.

 

If they are being painted to be the "bad guys" in a future game what a wasted opportunity.  I mean Tevinter I get....bunch of scum causing most of Thedas' problems.  I've seen the ball dropped quite a bit the last few years.  I hope this one isn't like that.  Thedas should be under Qunari control in the end.

[KainD]

Muscles are natural, built, earned, and trained.  Magic is a fluke, its dangerous and not of you.  There is no glory in being a tool of the fade or demons. 

 

When you build something and YOU do it all it means a lot more than if it was just given to you.

 

Magic functions exactly like a muscle, and it's a natural birthright. You train and develop the magical talent, increase your mana pool, you can do ''heavy lifting'' cast more powerful spells, and you can train your stamina and cast more spells before you exhaust yourself, also there are magical martial arts, techniques on how to use the spells more effectively and use less mana while you are doing so. And of course like all muscle group magic reacts to adrenaline. 

 

I am no tool of the fade, the fade is my tool, and no demon / spirit posses any threat to me. 

[KainD]

Your body is a crutch, constantly degrading and aging until one day, it will fail you and leave you standard in a helpless shell. Best you can do is accept it and make the most of your prison while your still able to. Magic is the same, it is a chain you are born wearing, and it binds you to danger every time you dream and every time you are in danger to forces beyond your control. It provides you power, only on its own terms, and it leaves you blind to other alternatives. Its not a superior tool, its having binoculars for eyes. You are skilled at seeing far, but now your sight is useless for all things close to you.

 

There is nothing beyond my control, and I see things crystal clear. I don't even have to accept a fate such as you have, for magic can fix my body, make it better, make it everlasting. until I choose to travel beyond, where magic will make me completely free. 

[LinksOcarina]

why the **** are people role-playing in the thread?

 

Isen't that a little...odd?

[KaiserShep]

why the **** are people role-playing in the thread?

 

Isen't that a little...odd?

 

[quetzocoetl]

I understood Bull's acceptance of Krem, and his differing description of the Qun as thus:

1. Iron Bull clearly has a deeper respect for his Chargers than the Qun would normally allow. His personal quest made it clear that, unlike most Qunari, he can be hesitant when torn between them and serving the Qun. Sten probably would've let most of the DA:O companions die if it served the purpose of the Qunari as a whole.

 

2. It's not unfathomable that the Qunari have a word for transgendered, but I don't believe they would've accepted them easily either. To me, Iron Bull respects Krem not through his Qunari roots, but through his assimilation to non-Qun culture. I feel that at some point, he realized that there was no reason for him not to consider Krem a man, that it served no benefit but to enforce the Qun on non-believers (which isn't exactly his job) and would rob him of a soldier as well. It may have started off more Qun-ish where the practicality was put first, but when he grew attached to his Chargers, that fell away as a justification.

 

3. Given Iron Bull's job, I'm more inclined to believe him in regards to most aspects of Qunari life. While Sten claims each Qunari knows the Qun by heart, Iron Bull, who is likely more knowledgeable in that subject (having to enforce it on Tal-Vashoth all the time), probably realizes that only the Tammassreens truly know the true meaning and intricacies of the Qun. It's entirely possible, and not unfathomable, that Qunari like Sten think they know the Qun, but don't actually have as great a grasp of it as they presume.

 

4. The whole "differing childhood" seems like the most egregious conflict, but it's not impossible to for both to coexist. Imagine, for a moment, that they simply didn't have the same people raising them, that there are minor differences depending on differing circumstances. Sure, Qunari are meant to bend to the Qun consistently, but nobody said it was 100% efficient. Even then, the idea that Sten had absolutely no point in his childhood where he did anything that could even remotely be considered "play" or "fun" is far less believable than Iron Bull's claim. Maybe Qunari don't generally have words for or universally acknowledge the concept of leisure (which seems quite a stretch), and Iron Bull can only make comparisons after assimilating whilst it's foreign to Sten because he always saw it as training, even if he was doing something as simple as stacking blocks.

 

5. Sten is one source, and not the highest ranking source. Sure, he was meant to be an introduction to the Qun, but the fact that he was only one piece of a much larger whole gave Bioware plenty of wiggle room to alter up the Qun as they saw fit.

 

6. I prefer this version of the Qun over Sten's near religion fueled slavery.

[Kath]

I think the Qun has definitely changed over the course of the games, but I wouldn't call it a complete retcon from the first game. 

Sten and Iron Bull have very different personalities and roles in the Qun. Even the Arishok in DAII was VERY different from those two. Getting a complete understanding of a culture from a few opinionated sources would be very hard, I think. 

 

Different experiences of the Qun from different sources, I'd say. Just because something is "different" about the Qun according to one qunari does not necessarily make it "wrong". It just might be "wrong" for them. If that makes sense...

[Geth Supremacy]

why the **** are people role-playing in the thread?

 

Isen't that a little...odd?

 

It's better than listening to people hate on the Qun.  Look at my name.  That isn't going to stand.  +  when I see Tevinters its go time.

[LinksOcarina]

I think the Qun has definitely changed over the course of the games, but I wouldn't call it a complete retcon from the first game. 

Sten and Iron Bull have very different personalities and roles in the Qun. Even the Arishok in DAII was VERY different from those two. Getting a complete understanding of a culture from a few opinionated sources would be very hard, I think. 

 

Different experiences of the Qun from different sources, I'd say. Just because something is "different" about the Qun according to one qunari does not necessarily make it "wrong". It just might be "wrong" for them. If that makes sense...

 

This is again where the heart of the problem is, people take what is said to be gospel, when the reality of the situation is completely different and antithetical to any reasonable thought. As I said earlier in the thread, lore is always subject to change, and it's not really a retcon when it does, it is simply adding layers to the dimensions. 

[Lady Artifice]

why the **** are people role-playing in the thread?

 

Isen't that a little...odd?

 

Well, the thread was so functional and normal before, I suppose it just seemed like time to tear down all that excessive productivity.