646 réponses à ce sujet

[eratis]

Eh, it's not inconceivable that that Qun would have a certain degree of flexibility for exceptional cases. Yes, yes, the Qun is all about rigidity and one's nature and such, but it's clear there are nuances and specifics that the priest class continues to debate and discuss. 

 

If there was a biological female who is truly exceptional at combat, and horrible at everything else, then it would be a waste to force them into a role they are ill suited for, and the Qun detests waste. So, they are declared male and stuck in the army. Biological sex is barely a factor in Qunari culture - they have no family units, breeding is carefully planned and controlled, and romantic sexual relationships are forbidden. Actually, in Qunari culture, it's more like one's role in society defines one's gender than the other way around. 

[Chari]

Yeah, an interesting observation. Maybe it's the Ben Hassarath in general. Maybe they're just prone to individualistic musings or doubt (and probably sheer B.S.). Not just Tallis and Bull, but Tallis' mentor as well.

Good point. I also noted that the ben-hassrath (out of all people, hilariously) are most prone to becoming tal-vashoth due to their individualities and philosophical views. The ones who are meant to keep qunari in line and fight the traitors

The irony. Not a surprising one, actually

[Taura-Tierno]

I imagine that the Qun reasons like this: 

Some people are born as men in women's bodies (and vice versa). Their genitals do not match their inner self, so their bodies are what's incorret. When it is discovered that a person is trans in Qunari society, they are set on the path of the gender they identify with, with all the rights, respnsibilities, benefits and drawbacks that comes with that. Krem, then, would have ceased being a woman and started being a man after it was decided that that was her path in life. Gender in Qunari society, then, would be more about an identity, a sense of belonging, or something like that, than about gender. Mostly it probably correlates with the biological sex, but obviously they're much more progressive in this area than we are. 

Simple as that. There's no contradiction with Sten's reaction. If you claim that there would be, just try to imagine the simple fact that Krem is not a woman, Krem is a man. The genitals do not matter for gender identity; how you act and what you do with your life is much more relevant. Period. 

 

[Giantdeathrobot]

Good point. I also noted that the ben-hassrath (out of all people, hilariously) are most prone to becoming tal-vashoth due to their individualities and philosophical views. The ones who are meant to keep qunari in line and fight the traitors

The irony. Not a surprising one, actually

 

Yeah, it makes sense, Ben-Hassrath simply couldn't act like Sten, they would stend out way too much. So they act like local Thedosian. And just like real spies, one can easily come become the mask, especially someone like Iron Bull who already had a break with his place in Qunari society and then is surrounded by a very diverse group of people.

 

With this isolation from the Qun, can easily come different interpretations as well. My take is that, for example, the term for transgender in Qunlat does exist; however, unlike what Bull thinks it's probably not a positive one at all. Him thinking Cassandra would fit into the Qun is also very suspect at best, given that she's a devout Andrastian.

[Chari]

Simple as that. There's no contradiction with Sten's reaction. If you claim that there would be, just try to imagine the simple fact that Krem is not a woman, Krem is a man. The genitals do not matter for gender identity; how you act and what you do with your life is much more relevant. Period. 

 

The problem is in one the dialogues with Sten he states (to sum it up) that a person doesn't choose their physical or mental traits. Intelligence, size of hands, colour of hair etc. He says "We/they simply are" You're born one way and that;s the only way. you can disagree with him and if you choose right lines he'll respect you more but he clearly states that stuggling with one's origins, body and abilities is wrong in qunari's eyes

[Osena109]

I think Bull has gone native  Qunari are not raging alcoholics According to Sten they only time they Drink is when new warrior of note is named and then if things get out of hand there are executions 

[Super Drone]

 why are you so invested in the Qun being horrible to the same people the real world is horrible to.

 

Because it's white-washing? Seriously. You can't choose your job, or who you have sex with,or what you say or think, But you can choose your gender? 

 

That's Doctor Doom crying over the World-Trade Center bombing.  Shoe-horning  Real-World-Social-Commentary into a fantasy setting in a non-nonsensical, ham-fisted fashion.

 

Krem was fine on his own. A respectful, honest depiction of a trans-gendered man. Even Bull accepting him was fine, a great way to show that the Bull can't justify all the rigidity of the Qun having spent so long a time among the Bas. Why does the Qun suddenly need to be accepting of transgender people? Despite having both gender roles and a society the DOES NOT CARE WHAT YOUR FEELINGS ARE AND EXPECTS YOU TO BEND TO FIT IT.

 

But God-forbid the alien, hostile society of totalitarian mind-rapers that we are usually opposed in every game is Trans-phobic. Can't have that. 

[Fairly Foxy]

Because it's white-washing? Seriously. You can't choose your job, or who you have sex with,or what you say or think, But you can choose your gender? 

 

That's Doctor Doom crying over the World-Trade Center bombing.  Shoe-horning  Real-World-Social-Commentary into a fantasy setting in a non-nonsensical, ham-fisted fashion.

 

Krem was fine on his own. A respectful, honest depiction of a trans-gendered man. Even Bull accepting him was fine, a great way to show that the Bull can't justify all the rigidity of the Qun having spent so long a time among the Bas. Why does the Qun suddenly need to be accepting of transgender people? Despite having both gender roles and a society the DOES NOT CARE WHAT YOUR FEELINGS ARE AND EXPECTS YOU TO BEND TO FIT IT.

 

But God-forbid the alien, hostile society of totalitarian mind-rapers that we are usually opposed in every game is Trans-phobic. Can't have that. 

 

 I agree that the character felt forced, but what you wrote was sensationalist trite meant to rally only the lowest common denominator.  You cheapen your point with incendiary language, because while I agree with you, I had to make an account just to reply to such provocation.   It reminds me of Charles Colson's lunatic rambling.

 

That being said, Krem should've been one of Dorian's contacts instead of Bull IMO.  A trans warrior from the Imperium against the current Magisterium is far more interesting than some merc following a bigger, dumber, merc.  And Dorian needed some more content not Bull =/
 

[K3m0sabe]

 I agree that the character felt forced, but what you wrote was sensationalist trite meant to rally only the lowest common denominator.  You cheapen your point with incendiary language, because while I agree with you, I had to make an account just to reply to such provocation.   It reminds me of Charles Colson's lunatic rambling.

 

That being said, Krem should've been one of Dorian's contacts instead of Bull IMO.  A trans warrior from the Imperium against the current Magisterium is far more interesting than some merc following a bigger, dumber, merc.  And Dorian needed some more content not Bull =/
 

 

It's hilarious that your comment is much more hyperbolic than the one your quoting. 

[Lumix19]

Because it's white-washing? Seriously. You can't choose your job, or who you have sex with,or what you say or think, But you can choose your gender? 

 

That's Doctor Doom crying over the World-Trade Center bombing.  Shoe-horning  Real-World-Social-Commentary into a fantasy setting in a non-nonsensical, ham-fisted fashion.

 

Krem was fine on his own. A respectful, honest depiction of a trans-gendered man. Even Bull accepting him was fine, a great way to show that the Bull can't justify all the rigidity of the Qun having spent so long a time among the Bas. Why does the Qun suddenly need to be accepting of transgender people? Despite having both gender roles and a society the DOES NOT CARE WHAT YOUR FEELINGS ARE AND EXPECTS YOU TO BEND TO FIT IT.

 

But God-forbid the alien, hostile society of totalitarian mind-rapers that we are usually opposed in every game is Trans-phobic. Can't have that. 

But he didn't choose to be male did he? His was a conflict between gender identity and biological sex. Besides the Qun is about having purpose, accepting your place - "An important concept in the Qun is the idea of "Asit tal-eb"—"It is to be": the idea that everything and everyone in the world has a nature, and all these things come together to form a proper order—such as the locust devouring crops. It is every individual's choice whether or not they act according to their nature and the nature of the world, or oppose the proper order, and as such fight against themselves and the world.", this is taken from the Dragon Age wiki and I think it aligns perfectly with Bull's acceptance of Krem.

[Applepie_Svk]

Shoe-horning  Real-World-Social-Commentary into a fantasy setting in a non-nonsensical, ham-fisted fashion.

 

 

 

 

Social engineering aka Anita Sarkeesian and others fighting against patriarchy... lol

[DarkSpiral]

There was a codex in DAO talking about certain things being simply impossible with magic. One of them was teleportation. When fans asked why enemy mages in DA2 could teleport around, Gaider responded saying they weren't teleporting, they were just going invisible, running to a new location at super speed, and then dropping invisibility. Seriously.

I'm not sure whether I like the hilariously bad attempts to explain retcons and inconsistencies or not. On one hand, I'd have a lot more respect for them if they were just honest and admitted what they were doing. But on the other hand, hilariously bad attempts are a lot of laughs.

 

Actually, I bought that explanation.  You'll notice that they didn't instantly move from one place to another.  I have also managed to knock a mage out of invisibility with an AoE a few times.

[Super Drone]

But he didn't choose to be male did he? His was a conflict between gender identity and biological sex. Besides the Qun is about having purpose, accepting your place - "An important concept in the Qun is the idea of "Asit tal-eb"—"It is to be": the idea that everything and everyone in the world has a nature, and all these things come together to form a proper order—such as the locust devouring crops. It is every individual's choice whether or not they act according to their nature and the nature of the world, or oppose the proper order, and as such fight against themselves and the world.", this is taken from the Dragon Age wiki and I think it aligns perfectly with Bull's acceptance of Krem.

 

Why would the Qun acknowledge something as internal and ephemeral as "I don't feel my external gender matches my internal gender". Understand, I'm not saying that statement is not legitimate or that Real-World trans people aren't 100% possessed of their right to be the gender they feel they are inside.

 

But why would people under the Qun? Why does "I feel like a man" get acknowledged and "I feel like I don't walk to sweep streets my whole life," or "I love Sally and want to be intimate with her" necessitate brainwashing or chemical lobotomy? 

 

Other than a desire to hand-waive a thorny, concrete reason why the Qun would be intolerable to some people. 

[Rifneno]

Because it's white-washing? Seriously. You can't choose your job, or who you have sex with,or what you say or think, But you can choose your gender? 
 
That's Doctor Doom crying over the World-Trade Center bombing.  Shoe-horning  Real-World-Social-Commentary into a fantasy setting in a non-nonsensical, ham-fisted fashion.
 
Krem was fine on his own. A respectful, honest depiction of a trans-gendered man. Even Bull accepting him was fine, a great way to show that the Bull can't justify all the rigidity of the Qun having spent so long a time among the Bas. Why does the Qun suddenly need to be accepting of transgender people? Despite having both gender roles and a society the DOES NOT CARE WHAT YOUR FEELINGS ARE AND EXPECTS YOU TO BEND TO FIT IT.
 
But God-forbid the alien, hostile society of totalitarian mind-rapers that we are usually opposed in every game is Trans-phobic. Can't have that.

This right here is an excellent point. Previously, literally the only choice offered qunari was "live or die." That they could choose to simply die rather than live in the completely totalitarian regime was actually considered a choice by the Arishok. And now these same people are super understanding of gender issues? The same *******es who thought that if you lost your sword DIE DESERTER.

Social engineering aka ***** ********** and others fighting against patriarchy... lol

Watch your language please.

[Super Drone]

 I agree that the character felt forced, but what you wrote was sensationalist trite meant to rally only the lowest common denominator.  You cheapen your point with incendiary language, because while I agree with you, I had to make an account just to reply to such provocation.   It reminds me of Charles Colson's lunatic rambling.

 

That being said, Krem should've been one of Dorian's contacts instead of Bull IMO.  A trans warrior from the Imperium against the current Magisterium is far more interesting than some merc following a bigger, dumber, merc.  And Dorian needed some more content not Bull =/
 

 

cool story, bro.

[Super Drone]

Social engineering aka Anita Sarkeesian and others fighting against patriarchy... lol

 

meh. I'm not a #GamerGate supporter. I just don't think the only way to support social visibility in a fictional setting is to have all characters in it react uniformly positive about it. Especially when it is presented in a fashion that is tone-deaf. 

[DarkSpiral]

Why would the Qun acknowledge something as internal and ephemeral as "I don't feel my external gender matches my internal gender". Understand, I'm not saying that statement is not legitimate or that Real-World trans people aren't 100% possessed of their right to be the gender they feel they are inside.

 

But why would people under the Qun? Why does "I feel like a man" get acknowledged and "I feel like I don't walk to sweep streets my whole life," or "I love Sally and want to be intimate with her" necessitate brainwashing or chemical lobotomy? 

 

Other than a desire to hand-waive a thorny, concrete reason why the Qun would be intolerable to some people. 

I doubt very much gender identification is any more ephemeral than any other kind of preference.  Admittedly, I'm guessing, because I'm not transgender, but it seems to me that in a society where you are assigned a role based on the traits that are observed by the Tamassrans, gender identity is simple one more check on a list of things taken into account when that role is assigned.

[myahele]

Either way, I almost feel sorry for qunari female that are suitable for breeding purposes

[Bhaal]

 

Sten never said they have no mages. He refers to them many times.

 

Morrigan: I am led to understand that the Qunari have their own mages as well. Is that so?

Sten: You would not understand.

Morrigan: Not understand? Is it mental capacity that you believe I lack? Or are you worried I will sympathize with my so-called brethren?

Sten: Take your pick.

 

Shale: I am told that the Qunari put mages on leashes. Leashes! What a delightful concept!

Sten: It is not something that one should take pleasure in. It is done because it is necessary.

 

Yeah but i was refering a dialog between player and Sten where he answer that they don't have mages. If player calls this rubbish he gives another explanation which i don't remember the exact phrases but he talks mages about as if they're things rather than persons.

[Super Drone]

I doubt very much gender identification is any more ephemeral than any other kind of preference.  Admittedly, I'm guessing, because I'm not transgender, but it seems to me that in a society where you are assigned a role based on the traits that are observed by the Tamassrans, gender identity is simple one more check on a list of things taken into account when that role is assigned.

 

Many transgendered don't really understand what they are until adolescence, or struggle with it for years of adulthood. Certainly many trans people come to that conclusion well after the age of 12, when the Tammasrans have already assigned most Qunari to their roles. So which is it? Are these ones SOL and stuck in their gender assignment, or does the rigid, unbending Qun society go "oops! tee hee" and let them change roles?

 

If it's the latter, that the Qunari are 100% accepting of letting someone buck the Tammasrans assignment because of their feelings, that is just silly. Doctor Doom crying over 9/11 levels of silly.

[Lumix19]

Why would the Qun acknowledge something as internal and ephemeral as "I don't feel my external gender matches my internal gender". Understand, I'm not saying that statement is not legitimate or that Real-World trans people aren't 100% possessed of their right to be the gender they feel they are inside.

 

But why would people under the Qun? Why does "I feel like a man" get acknowledged and "I feel like I don't walk to sweep streets my whole life," or "I love Sally and want to be intimate with her" necessitate brainwashing or chemical lobotomy? 

 

Other than a desire to hand-waive a thorny, concrete reason why the Qun would be intolerable to some people. 

Because "I feel like a man" is within your nature, so it aligns with Asit tal-eb. Conversely saying "I feel like I don't want to sweep streets my whole life" defies your nature and the natural order. You were placed in that position by the Qun because you were best suited for that role and no other. To defy what you are best suited for is to resist your nature and to fight against yourself. I suspect most Qunari love their jobs since you often are most apt at what you enjoy and hence you get the position. "I love Sally and want to be intimate with her" is a confusing one admittedly but in a society devoted to the greater whole it's not unreasonable to enforce rules to regulate birth, where that fits into Asit tal-eb I have no idea but the Qun does teach that "Mastery of the self is mastery of the world" so perhaps it has to do with that. The Qun is already intolerable to some people because it's totalitarian, the benefits are supposed to be manifold though aren't they? Otherwise people wouldn't join it.

 

 

Many transgendered don't really understand what they are until adolescence, or struggle with it for years of adulthood. Certainly many trans people come to that conclusion well after the age of 12, when the Tammasrans have already assigned most Qunari to their roles. So which is it? Are these ones SOL and stuck in their gender assignment, or does the rigid, unbending Qun society go "oops! tee hee" and let them change roles?

 

If it's the latter, that the Qunari are 100% accepting of letting someone buck the Tammasrans assignment because of their feelings, that is just silly. Doctor Doom crying over 9/11 levels of silly.

Is this correct? I was under the impression that gender identity was formed by the age of three. I'm sure the Tammasrans would have identified it by then.