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[Rifneno]

Either way, I almost feel sorry for qunari female that are suitable for breeding purposes

Or the ones working in... well, I can't call them prostitutes because they don't charge for it. But Bull talks quite a few times about the Qunari being able to go... "get relief" anytime and how sex isn't a big deal there like it is with real people. So the tamassarians have to have this conversation on a regular basis: "48027-K isn't really good at anything we assign her to do. I guess she'll be popping corks the rest of her life?" "I guess so." What a charming society!

[Lumix19]

Or the ones working in... well, I can't call them prostitutes because they don't charge for it. But Bull talks quite a few times about the Qunari being able to go... "get relief" anytime and how sex isn't a big deal there like it is with real people. So the tamassarians have to have this conversation on a regular basis: "48027-K isn't really good at anything we assign her to do. I guess she'll be popping corks the rest of her life?" "I guess so." What a charming society!

You never know, I'm sure some of them enjoy their jobs. I doubt the Tamassarans would place someone in that job unless they somewhat enjoyed it and there are worse jobs.

[Super Drone]

Or the ones working in... well, I can't call them prostitutes because they don't charge for it. But Bull talks quite a few times about the Qunari being able to go... "get relief" anytime and how sex isn't a big deal there like it is with real people. So the tamassarians have to have this conversation on a regular basis: "48027-K isn't really good at anything we assign her to do. I guess she'll be popping corks the rest of her life?" "I guess so." What a charming society!

 

I know right? I know people who were hoping Qun society was some sort of asexual paradise with enforced chastity. I wonder how they took that little revelation. 

[Lumix19]

I know right? I know people who were hoping Qun society was some sort of asexual paradise with enforced chastity. I wonder how they took that little revelation. 

To be honest I was hoping the Qun was like that but this revelation was hardly disillusioning. The sort of mind control necessary to be able to enforce that doesn't exist either in the real world or in Thedas.

[Super Drone]

Is this correct? I was under the impression that gender identity was formed by the age of three. I'm sure the Tammasrans would have identified it by then.

 

Some elements of gender identity do, but things like peer pressure, not wanting to seem different from others, expectations (voiced or unvoiced) of adults, all contribute to making many, many trans people not actually admitting it even to themselves until hormone changes in adolescence start to force the issue. Many, many trans people don't seek to assert their real gender until they are teens or adults.

 

Too old to change your role in Qunari society, certainly. Unless Qunari society suddenly makes an exception of transgendered people. For reasons. 

[DarkSpiral]

Many transgendered don't really understand what they are until adolescence, or struggle with it for years of adulthood. Certainly many trans people come to that conclusion well after the age

 

In most of the world's societies, transgenders and people that have any tendency that isn't heterosexual are, subtle or otherwise, encouraged to be mainstream.  Actual gender identification begins much younger than that, and thus in a society where this trait is merely one more check on a list, it would be noticed very quickly.

 

That's theorycrafting, to a degree of course.  There is no society like that in RL.  But the children begins developing gender identifications long before puberty.

 

EDIT: Hm.  Posted this before I saw your own post, just above.  My points stand though.  If the peer pressure doesn't exist, the trait would be noticed before hormones enter the picture.

[DarkSpiral]

Or the ones working in... well, I can't call them prostitutes because they don't charge for it. But Bull talks quite a few times about the Qunari being able to go... "get relief" anytime and how sex isn't a big deal there like it is with real people. So the tamassarians have to have this conversation on a regular basis: "48027-K isn't really good at anything we assign her to do. I guess she'll be popping corks the rest of her life?" "I guess so." What a charming society!

 

Truly.  Kind of like temple maidens, but without any religious frippery.

[Super Drone]

To be honest I was hoping the Qun was like that but this revelation was hardly disillusioning. The sort of mind control necessary to be able to enforce that doesn't exist either in the real world or in Thedas.

 

It's actually shaken my faith that the Qun isn't a laughably unrealistic societal model. Enforced chastity has never once worked in any society ever. Convincing people to only seek sexual release with what are essentially Temple Prostitutes seems alien, but not something instantly doomed to fail. 

[DarkSpiral]

The more I think about it, I'm not kidding. There's a pimp mentality going on there.

 

They're the only real people who espouse that some women are fit for nothing but being hoes. And you can't change them. Because they WANT to be that. So says the Pimp Hand.

 

And men!  "Tamassran," as near as we can tell, is not a woman-only role.  Just like the Ben-Hassrath can be of any gender.

[Grayvisions]

Don't know what part of that is confusing. Sten was speaking to a female character who sees themselves as female. Krem is a female who sees herself as male. In Qun terms, while both are biologically female, the warden was a woman in a man's role, Krem is just plain a man. 

 

Krem is not just a tomboy or a macho female warrior, that's what it sounds like OP isn't getting. Krem sees himself as a man, and so that's how 'he' is treated in the Qun. All of that lines up perfectly with what Sten's reaction to the female warriors were, women who see themselves as women taking on what Sten and the Qun saw as a man's role. 

 

I'm confused about why this is causing confusion .-.

 

 

EDIT: To address some of the posts above me, two things to consider. One, this is a video game, it's in everyone's best interest to limit application of real-world variables to a fictional one. Using your knowledge of the world to contrast/compare and thus understand the fictional one is one thing, expecting them to simulate one another is however, unhealthy. Two, the whole 'what many trans/gay/whatever' start to conversations is a bad idea. What you are REALLY saying is, "many trans/gay/whatever ~in the society I live in~ do [insert action here]". Every society in the real world (let alone a fictional one) handles queer variables differently. Trans lifestyles, as just one example, existed in many native american cultures and were even venerated as living on the spiritual cusp of gender that allowed them to see the world differently than one who is strictly male/female. They were also left behind during tribal warfare to protect the women and children while 'men' went off to bloody each other up a bit. Then there's the lady-boy culture in parts of Asia, that's it's own thing, and is very different than the way, say, the USA handles trans/cross-dressing men. 

 

I just digressed the hell out of this post but, ya.

[Super Drone]

In most of the world's societies, transgenders and people that have any tendency that isn't heterosexual are, subtle or otherwise, encouraged to be mainstream.  Actual gender identification begins much younger than that, and thus in a society where this trait is merely one more check on a list, it would be noticed very quickly.

 

That's theorycrafting, to a degree of course.  There is no society like that in RL.  But the children begins developing gender identifications long before puberty.

 

EDIT: Hm.  Posted this before I saw your own post, just above.  My points stand though.  If the peer pressure doesn't exist, the trait would be noticed before hormones enter the picture.

 

True, I could see a society that's not hetero-normative "catching" transgendered children at a younger age. But even in a society that is intellectually accepting of transgendered and homosexual people, they still have to deal with the fact that they are "not like the other little boys/girls". Which will cause some children, especially children raised to believe in obedience and structure, to suppress and hide things like that. 

 

which leads me to my original point. Does a transgendered Qunari, who comes to that  undertsgtanding after the age of 12, get told "too bad, so sad" or do they get told "We know the Qun is Certainty and all, but respecting gender identity is Waaay more important. Here's a sword."

 

The answer to that can't be "The Tamassrans always identify them before that."

[Lumix19]

The more I think about it, I'm not kidding. There's a pimp mentality going on there.
 
They're the only real people who espouse that some women are fit for nothing but being hoes. And you can't change them. Because they WANT to be that. So says the Pimp Hand.

 

It may not be their whole job you know, perhaps they're available for a few hours and then go back to teaching or whatever. Besides who says it's only women?

It's actually shaken my faith that the Qun isn't a laughably unrealistic societal model. Enforced chastity has never once worked in any society ever. Convincing people to only seek sexual release with what are essentially Temple Prostitutes seems alien, but not something instantly doomed to fail.

 

Indeed, it's somewhat pragmatic. Also I think the whole Temple prostitutes is Babylonian? No RL society has managed it but 1984 did a nice job, though I doubt that was the inspiration Bioware was looking for when they created the Qun.

Some elements of gender identity do, but things like peer pressure, not wanting to seem different from others, expectations (voiced or unvoiced) of adults, all contribute to making many, many trans people not actually admitting it even to themselves until hormone changes in adolescence start to force the issue. Many, many trans people don't seek to assert their real gender until they are teens or adults.
 
Too old to change your role in Qunari society, certainly. Unless Qunari society suddenly makes an exception of transgendered people. For reasons.

Some of those things, like peer pressure and expectations seem societal. Perhaps Qunari society is much more adept and helping people feel comfortable with their gender?

[DarkSpiral]

True, I could see a society that's not hetero-normative "catching" transgendered children at a younger age. But even in a society that is intellectually accepting of transgendered and homosexual people, they still have to deal with the fact that they are "not like the other little boys/girls". Which will cause some children, especially children raised to believe in obedience and structure, to suppress and hide things like that. 

 

which leads me to my original point. Does a transgendered Qunari, who comes to that  undertsgtanding after the age of 12, get told "too bad, so sad" or do they get told "We know the Qun is Certainty and all, but respecting gender identity is Waaay more important. Here's a sword."

 

The answer to that can't be "The Tamassrans always identify them before that."

Ah, why then I must admit you're absolutely correct.  We haven't had that specific example explored yet.

 

Given what we know of the Qun, my guess is that someone who comes into conflict with their currently assigned role is handed over to the re-educators.  We know those people have license to break people's wills.

 

The question would then become would they bother to break this person's will, and/or expose them to qamek?  Or possibly reassign them?  And if reassigning their role is permissible, would the Tamassran responsible for this error in judgement now also have a appointment with the re-educators, for their failure?

 

See, this is why I love speculation.

[Super Drone]

 

 

I'm confused about why this is causing confusion .-.

 

 

It's not causing confusion. I'm not confused. I find the notion that Qunari are 100% accepting of transgendered people to be tone-deaf and contradictory. I understand how transgendered people work, and how they are or are not accepted in various real world cultures. It doesn't make the revelation that the Qunari, who literally brainwash people who sleep with one of their friends, occasionally with mind-destroying drugs, are totally sensitive to gender-dysphoria, not sound tone-deaf.

[myahele]

In the Qun its your duty to give your booty.

[DarkSpiral]

Someone pointed out that above. It makes no difference. People are worth offering more possibilities in life. All kinds of people. Women, men, disabled, or whatever. There is no "true nature".

 

On a sidenote, as a musician, I take an extreme dislike of the notion. It's like telling me I can only play one genre. When I'll jam with anyone. And to hell with people who don't like it. Life is a lot like music.. you improvise, you flow, you discover..

 

I was about to post on how we have no idea what kind of musicians and entertaines the Qun allows.

 

Then I recalled Sten's little dialogue line to the Warden if they survive, about how the celebrations around the Warden remind him of a honor that can be posthumously given to some Qunari.  Its the only time Qunari are allowed to cut loose and party.  Executions are occasionally needed to restore order, afterwards.

 

I'm paraphrasing of course.  But without any other sources to reference, people with artistic bents may be screwed under the Qun.  Just because this one aspect (how transgenders are handled by the Tamassrans) might seem more progressive than RL doesn't make the Qun appealing, which is an argument I had earlier in the thread, when someone claimed this was sanitizing the Qun, and I countered that it only made the Qunari more alien.  Society under the Qun is harsh.

[Rifneno]

>It would be noticed early

Sure, if you think it's all stereotypes and every little boy that plays with a girl toy must obviously want to wear a dress. Turns out, life isn't simple, people are complex, and issues with gender are crazy complex. No, it would not be noticed early unless you had a hilarious amount of false positives too. Not every tomboy wishes they could pee standing up, and not everyone who seems to conform to their gender identity is happy with it. And having known a few TG's, none of them knew until their late teens. At earliest.

[DarkSpiral]

>It would be noticed early

Sure, if you think it's all stereotypes and every little boy that plays with a girl toy must obviously want to wear a dress. Turns out, life isn't simple, people are complex, and issues with gender are crazy complex. No, it would not be noticed early unless you had a hilarious amount of false positives too. Not every tomboy wishes they could pee standing up, and not everyone who seems to conform to their gender identity is happy with it. And having known a few TG's, none of them knew until their late teens. At earliest.

 

Studies say otherwise, Rif.

 

And you are not the only one who has known transgenders.  Kindly do not use that fact as a way of enforcing your point, because I can do the same.  I've known a few too, and I've heard from them and others, that they knew something was wrong for years before they could admit it to themselves.  In that regard, it isn't any different than being gay or bi. 

[Rifneno]

Studies say otherwise, Rif.
 
And you are not the only one who has known transgenders.  Kindly do not use that fact as a way of enforcing your point, because I can do the same.  I've known a few too, and I've heard from them and others, that they knew something was wrong for years before they could admit it to themselves.  In that regard, it isn't any different than being gay or bi.

So they say it's a really simple thing and can totally be caught by somebody with a clipboard full of questions? I daresay you're making that up.

[Super Drone]

Indeed, it's somewhat pragmatic. Also I think the whole Temple prostitutes is Babylonian? No RL society has managed it but 1984 did a nice job, though I doubt that was the inspiration Bioware was looking for when they created the Qun.

 

You're kidding, right? Not only is 1984 a written example of how such a society doesn't really work, but within the story it showed how enforced chastity fails. The Proles basically ignored any attempts to keep them from having sex, and the Party Members would just sneak out an hire prole prostitutes. Hell, the Party made porn to sell to the proles for f's sake. 

 

Enforced chastity never works.