So they say it's a really simple thing and can totally be caught by somebody with a clipboard full of questions? I daresay you're making that up.
Are you serious? Nevermind, you clearly are.
Of course I'm making it up. This isn't about how real people are treated. Its speculation about how the Qun, a made up philosophy, treats a subsection of its population, based on incomplete and possibly contradictory information that has been delivered by sources whose objectivity is in question.
Because it's white-washing? Seriously. You can't choose your job, or who you have sex with,or what you say or think, But you can choose your gender?
That's Doctor Doom crying over the World-Trade Center bombing. Shoe-horning Real-World-Social-Commentary into a fantasy setting in a non-nonsensical, ham-fisted fashion.
Krem was fine on his own. A respectful, honest depiction of a trans-gendered man. Even Bull accepting him was fine, a great way to show that the Bull can't justify all the rigidity of the Qun having spent so long a time among the Bas. Why does the Qun suddenly need to be accepting of transgender people? Despite having both gender roles and a society the DOES NOT CARE WHAT YOUR FEELINGS ARE AND EXPECTS YOU TO BEND TO FIT IT.
But God-forbid the alien, hostile society of totalitarian mind-rapers that we are usually opposed in every game is Trans-phobic. Can't have that.
I think this should end the thread? and having a term for it to boot lol
^ That was cringe worthily hilarious, strikes of america-centricism as well.
I think this should end the thread? and having a term for it to boot lol
^ That was cringe worthily hilarious, strikes of america-centricism as well.
Do the things you say ever make sense?
Um, since you're responding to a quote of your own post you might want to ask yourself instead.
Um, since you're responding to a quote of your own post you might want to ask yourself instead.
No, I got what I was saying. What does any of that have to do with America-centrism? Because I mentioned the WTC bombing? the article is about characters in a comic doing things they wouldn't actually do because the author was trying to be sensitive to Real World social issues. The fact that it was about something that happened in America is only America-centric because the author and characters and setting are all American. I don't accuse Ian Fleming of being an Anglophile just because James Bond serves the British Government.
You're kidding, right? Not only is 1984 a written example of how such a society doesn't really work, but within the story it showed how enforced chastity fails. The Proles basically ignored any attempts to keep them from having sex, and the Party Members would just sneak out an hire prole prostitutes. Hell, the Party made porn to sell to the proles for f's sake.
Enforced chastity never works.
The Proles were unimportant so there was no need to enforce chastity for them, they were considered animals. Sure Winston hired a prostitute but he was always a bit rebellious, that's why they were watching him. I actually thought that was the whole point of the hate rallies, to channel all that sexual frustration into hatred for Goldstein and fanaticism for BB.
No, I got what I was saying. What does any of that have to do with America-centrism? Because I mentioned the WTC bombing? the article is about characters in a comic doing things they wouldn't actually do because the author was trying to be sensitive to Real World social issues. The fact that it was about something that happened in America is only America-centric because the author and characters and setting are all American. I don't accuse Ian Fleming of being an Anglophile just because James Bond serves the British Government.
I'm actually somewhat glad he asked, then, because I was confused about what you were trying to say with that example.
So, thanks for the clarification. 
You're kidding, right? Not only is 1984 a written example of how such a society doesn't really work, but within the story it showed how enforced chastity fails. The Proles basically ignored any attempts to keep them from having sex, and the Party Members would just sneak out an hire prole prostitutes. Hell, the Party made porn to sell to the proles for f's sake.
Enforced chastity never works.
Admitedly, Qunari might not have the same sex drive as humans, IB being a notable exception, albeit obviously they still forcibly have one or they would be extinct. I still agree having sexual services offered is way smarter than going ''if you aren't making babies, you're not having sex, ever'' which indeed seems like a recipe for disaster, with human or elven converts if nothing else.
That said, I disagree with your previous point that the Qunari are 100% accepting of transgenders. I think Bull is lying, to himself, to Krem or to both. The term for transgender does exist in Qunlat; but I doubt it's seen as a positive by actual Qunari. Iron Bull is a Tal-Vashoth in all but name, so I personally would wait and see before taking what he says at face value. As I stated earlier, he thinks Cassandra would fit into the Qun because she ''loves rules'', but she's actually trying to change the Chantry in a pretty major way according to her own morals, to say nothing of how the Inquisition was outright heresy at first. So I do think Bull is kinda fooling himself when it comes to how tolerant the Qun is.
With that being said, I think it's possible that, if Krem was a convert, they would go ''looks like a man, (almost) talks like a man, walks like a man, fights like a man, alright branwashing you is a waste of time, here's a sword''. The Qunari are nothing if not practical.
I think this should end the thread? and having a term for it to boot lol
^ That was cringe worthily hilarious, strikes of america-centricism as well.
Mentioning the world trade center as an example of a tragedy, is not America-centrism.
A person dismissing all other examples of enormous tragedies as inferior examples might be, but since that did not occur, the term does not apply.
Guest_EntropicAngel_*
The more I think about it, I'm not kidding. There's a pimp mentality going on there.
They're the only real people who espouse that some women are fit for nothing but being hoes. And you can't change them. Because they WANT to be that. So says the Pimp Hand.
Take note that it isn't even WANT. It's whether they're good at it.
Maker knows how they find out if a female Qunari is good at sexing it up, but when they do...PIMP HAND, as you say 
True, I could see a society that's not hetero-normative "catching" transgendered children at a younger age. But even in a society that is intellectually accepting of transgendered and homosexual people, they still have to deal with the fact that they are "not like the other little boys/girls". Which will cause some children, especially children raised to believe in obedience and structure, to suppress and hide things like that.
which leads me to my original point. Does a transgendered Qunari, who comes to that undertsgtanding after the age of 12, get told "too bad, so sad" or do they get told "We know the Qun is Certainty and all, but respecting gender identity is Waaay more important. Here's a sword."
The answer to that can't be "The Tamassrans always identify them before that."
I don't know, obviously, but I don't see why the answer to that can't be: 1) Either your role is re-assigned based on the premise that you were given the wrong role to begin with or 2) You are re-educated. I imagine which happens depends on a variety of factors, especially whether it had the potential to cause rebellion or disruption to the Qun. The assumption that Qunari have no flexibility or judgment comes with the initial exposure to it being mainly soldiers (who would naturally be given little to no flexibility or judgment, for their own good, as it doesn't suit their role - this explains Sten). I see no reason to assume the Tamassarans truly have no flexibility or judgment, since that's essentially a part of their role. I would also say I imagine it happens rarely if they are any good at assigning roles.
Also, I think 12 is low-balling it with age, though I do appreciate the parallelism to The Giver, which is very much how I see this "Society picks your job" aspect of the Qunari. I don't see why the role has to be established quite that young or that we've been given any indication at what age it is assigned. We have also seen that the role can be "adjusted" if not completely re-assigned (no, we haven't seen a baker become a soldier or anything, but we have seen roles change within a specific job.
There do seem to be "changes" in the Qun (though I don't think the transgender/Krem thing is one of them, as it perfectly fits with Sten asking how you can lead as a woman - in fact, I swear, he asks if you ARE a woman at one point as though he's confused). But as Vivienne says about the Circle, people have different experiences even in the same place. It's entirely possible Bull and Sten both came away with differing views of the Qun. I know we're meant to believe Qunari are these cookie-cutter, identical creatures, but, honestly, that is impossible. I'm sure they have a harmony to their society and a sameness - that seems inherent and crucial to the Qunari - but that doesn't mean they would explain every instance the same way. I don't see any change that couldn't be explained this way. The biggest change seems to be in how children were raised. IB's sounds far more likely than Sten's to me - since even Sten specifically says there are ALL kinds of roles, even musicians/bards in Qunari society. I see no reason to "disbelieve" Sten, but I see plenty of reason to consider he may be assimilating his experiences to everyone in a way that isn't as true under the Qun as he thinks it is.
No, I got what I was saying. What does any of that have to do with America-centrism? Because I mentioned the WTC bombing? the article is about characters in a comic doing things they wouldn't actually do because the author was trying to be sensitive to Real World social issues. The fact that it was about something that happened in America is only America-centric because the author and characters and setting are all American. I don't accuse Ian Fleming of being an Anglophile just because James Bond serves the British Government.
Well well done on that. The american authors paying tribute to an american tragedy for an primarily american audience is understandable, but within the universe it makes no sense and they did it simply because "american authors made them". That's America-centrism, just like Aliens always attacking the US. Mmmk? Magneto is a german jew and I think Doom was some sort of European.
Mentioning the world trade center as an example of a tragedy, is not America-centrism.
A person dismissing all other examples of enormous tragedies as inferior might be, but since that did not occur, the term does not apply.
That's pretty much what it is. Worse tragedies have occurred, yet these world conquering, genocidal villains started crying for the world trade centre and the world trade centre alone.
The Qun changed because Origins was the original. Like with Walking Dead they didn't know if they were going to do a sequel let alone 3 more games. Lore had to evolve.
Sten says you're female warden can't be female because she fights in a man's position according to the Qun. Meaning you're female warden acts like a female, and looks like a female, and thinks she is female. And this confuses Sten because the Qun says women are not warriors under the Qun.
Iron Bull says Krem looks like a man, acts like a man, thinks he is a man. Therefor under the Qun he is a man, which makes him capable of being a warrior.
But Bull isn't confused at Cassandra, Vivienne, Sera, or female inquisitor fighting and doesn't call any of them men either. It just seems really inconsistent.
Bull is someone who has been living outside of qunari society for several years. He's used to it now. It isn't worth a comment. He is also lying to himself a lot about the Qun in his own conversations.
Sten is a qunari who has just arrived to Fereldan and is having huge difficulty acclimating to it.
Bull is someone who has been living outside of qunari society for several years. He's used to it now. It isn't worth a comment. He is also lying to himself a lot about the Qun in his own conversations.
Sten is a qunari who has just arrived to Fereldan and is having huge difficulty acclimating to it.
Though the idea of him being in denial about the Qun is an interesting one.
It isn't out of the realm. From his and Gat's talks, one can infer that Bull was broken, mentally and spiritually, before the Inquisitor ever met him.
Aqun-Athlok would translate to balance worker so that has nothing to do with transgender and we all know iron bull is a born lair his name in the Qun is Hissrad keeper of Illusions or lair so i think he was telling a story nothing more and the Qun would have no place for her Krem is Basra and
purposeless in the eyes of the Qun
It isn't out of the realm. From his and Gat's talks, one can infer that Bull was broken, mentally and spiritually, before the Inquisitor ever met him.
Because it's white-washing? Seriously. You can't choose your job, or who you have sex with,or what you say or think, But you can choose your gender?
That's Doctor Doom crying over the World-Trade Center bombing. Shoe-horning Real-World-Social-Commentary into a fantasy setting in a non-nonsensical, ham-fisted fashion.
Krem was fine on his own. A respectful, honest depiction of a trans-gendered man. Even Bull accepting him was fine, a great way to show that the Bull can't justify all the rigidity of the Qun having spent so long a time among the Bas. Why does the Qun suddenly need to be accepting of transgender people? Despite having both gender roles and a society the DOES NOT CARE WHAT YOUR FEELINGS ARE AND EXPECTS YOU TO BEND TO FIT IT.
But God-forbid the alien, hostile society of totalitarian mind-rapers that we are usually opposed in every game is Trans-phobic. Can't have that.
Good god, this a thousand times over.
Aqun-Athlok would translate to balance worker so that has nothing to do with transgender and we all know iron bull is a born lair his name in the Qun is Hissrad keeper of Illusions or lair so i think he was telling a story nothing more and the Qun would have no place for her Krem is Basra and
purposeless in the eyes of the Qun
You have a dictionary of translations from Qunlat to English do you? 
No matter what side of the debate you fall on, this is a heavily flawed argument. The Dragon Age wiki might be a nice place for a quick reference on the languages, but that's all it is.
The possibility that The Iron Bull is simply lying is...there. It will be awfully cheesy if Bioware tosses this tidbit out there and then completely retracts it later with the flimsy excuse of "The Bull was a liar."
Good god, this a thousand times over.
The major flaw in that statement is that the choice is still being made by the Tamassrans, not the individual in question. It still gets assigned, you still have no choice in the matter.
meh. I'm not a #GamerGate supporter. I just don't think the only way to support social visibility in a fictional setting is to have all characters in it react uniformly positive about it. Especially when it is presented in a fashion that is tone-deaf.
I am not either, but I am realy pissed off each time when I see some sort of social justice agenda lurking in games. For instance Anita was judging DA:O as a sexists misogynic game based upon the alienage scene ignoring whole story behind it, and all the characters saying otherwise. So far i found DA:I much more sexist than any other BioWare game, which very disturbing if they don´t have any other way of how to gain fans.
As for this instance I hate when something already told is going to be rewriten just because someone from developers doesn´t like it and wants to sugarcoat it.
Wait, how is DA:I more sexist than any other BioWare game? Is this including Mass Effect as well?
Wait, how is DA:I more sexist than any other BioWare game? Is this including Mass Effect as well?
I'm confused by this too. Hell, Cassandra actually laughs in your face when you say 'why can't I be divine?' if you're a human male and says 'Because you're a man!' I'd think people would (stupidly) take this as anti-sexist?
The Iron Bull is Ben-Hassrath.
Sten is a Sten of the Antaam.
Naturally, their perspectives are going to be very different. Ben-Hassrath have to be more aware both of the Qun and where the Qun is flexible. Antaam... not so much. Their job is to break things.
Add to that, Sten is very reserved and stoic with the Warden in the beginning. Given to flat statements and unyielding declarations. He has an extremely subtle sense of humor. At the time the 'you fight but you're a woman' conversation, it's still early in the game.
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