646 réponses à ce sujet

[Applepie_Svk]

Wait, how is DA:I more sexist than any other BioWare game? Is this including Mass Effect as well?

 

Let´s see, Sera and Iron Bull´s sexist quotes. Iron Bull´s strange scene with stick, I was realy confused if I am in some sort of bad porn and those  IB´s sounds... uh still can´t shake it out of my mind. Krem and Dorian´s stories are built on the sexuality/gender issues. Ofc there is also sexual content in the game, which was somehow for someone improvment, but for me it was downgrade, because I did not buy a game for watching this, I bought if for gameplay and story.

 

Also it´s in the way of how are things done, in ME it was silent approach to these themes, what is behind door it stays there, but in DA:I is more about how it is going to kick to your teeths.

[Taura-Tierno]

Let´s see, Sera and Iron Bull´s sexist quotes. Iron Bull´s strange scene with stick, I was realy confused if I am in some sort of bad porn and those  IB´s sounds... uh still can´t shake it out of my mind. Krem and Dorian´s stories are built on the sexuality/gender issues. Ofc there is also sexual content in the game, which was somehow for someone improvment, but for me it was downgrade, because I did not buy a game for watching this, I bought if for gameplay and story.

 

Also it´s in the way of how are things done, in ME it was silent approach to these themes, what is behind door it stays there, but in DA:I is more about how it is going to kick to your teeths.

How does that make the game sexist ...? Krem's character being constructed around the gender issue isn't sexist; it's the opposite. IB made some sexist remarks that could be construed as such (I remember something when he talked about red heads), but having a character that makes sexist remarks doesn't make a game sexist. Hell, you can have a story set in an extremely sexist society without the story being sexist. Whether the story (or game in this case) is sexist depends more on how those issues are handled or problematised. In general, Thedas has always seemed be much more progressive on the sexism issue than our world is. What with the female-ruled chantry, no issues with women being warriors, etc. Visually this game is much better too; less skimpy outfits except for certain characters who like to be dressed that way, and so on. 

A game dealing with issues around gender doesn't make it sexist; a game is sexist if it encourages discrimination or treats characters differently based on gender if there's no story-reason for doing so (e.g. skimpy female armors). 

[K3m0sabe]

In a couple of years every game will be sanitized with political correctness that instead of npc's or gameworld we will just have a homogeneous grey mass where every particle is indistinguishable from the next. 

 

Next up, Bioware will retcon the broodmother, instead of women captured, tortured and corrupted into monsters whose sole propose is to give birth to more monsters, they will be non-gender specific humans, that voluntarily give themselves up to the darkspawn and then proceed to give birth only if they want. 

[berrieh]

Let´s see, Sera and Iron Bull´s sexist quotes. Iron Bull´s strange scene with stick, I was realy confused if I am in some sort of bad porn and those  IB´s sounds... uh still can´t shake it out of my mind. Krem and Dorian´s stories are built on the sexuality/gender issues. Ofc there is also sexual content in the game, which was somehow for someone improvment, but for me it was downgrade, because I did not buy a game for watching this, I bought if for gameplay and story.

 

Also it´s in the way of how are things done, in ME it was silent approach to these themes, what is behind door it stays there, but in DA:I is more about how it is going to kick to your teeths.

 

 

None of that makes a game sexist. (A lot of what you're saying is sex, not even related to gender or sexism, and even the things that are sexism are basically characters expressing a sexist POV at times - which is perfectly fine and does not make the work sexist per se, especially if there is a counterweight and a context.) Discussing sexual themes, gender identity themes, or themes of sexuality also does not make a work sexist. It would depend how the discussion was done, obviously, and I see no prejudice in any of the things you've presented. Basically, I'm just echoing what Taura-Tierno says. 

[Northborn]

Perhaps Sten, after becoming the new Arishok, helped sway the general motion of the Qun? He witnessed countless women fight for a great cause... perhaps his accounts of the Fifth Blight shaked things up within the Qun.

[DarkSpiral]

Let´s see, Sera and Iron Bull´s sexist quotes. Iron Bull´s strange scene with stick, I was realy confused if I am in some sort of bad porn and those  IB´s sounds... uh still can´t shake it out of my mind. Krem and Dorian´s stories are built on the sexuality/gender issues. Ofc there is also sexual content in the game, which was somehow for someone improvment, but for me it was downgrade, because I did not buy a game for watching this, I bought if for gameplay and story.

 

Also it´s in the way of how are things done, in ME it was silent approach to these themes, what is behind door it stays there, but in DA:I is more about how it is going to kick to your teeths.

Um...Apple, i don't think sexist means what you're using it for.

 

Actually, since none of the example you give even remotely fit the definition of sexist, I know full well it doesn't mean what you're using it for.  What really confuses me is what you actually are trying to say, because your context sounds like you're talking about the presence of sex-related content, rather than comments or portrayals that objectify people based on their gender.  Which quotes from Sera strike you as sexist, exactly?

 

Seriously here, Krem's depiction is not even remotely sexist.  Its a positive picture of a transgender who's made peace with themselves and found people to accept him, and everyone else can kiss off.

 

Sexist?  No.

[Osena109]

You have a dictionary of translations from Qunlat to English do you? 

No matter what side of the debate you fall on, this is a heavily flawed argument.  The Dragon Age wiki might be a nice place for a quick reference on the languages, but that's all it is.

 

The possibility that The Iron Bull is simply lying is...there.  It will be awfully cheesy if Bioware tosses this tidbit out there and then completely retracts it later with the flimsy excuse of "The Bull was a liar."

I can see that  but by the way Sten(Arishok) talked about the Qun  Women did not fight  at all and every Qunari knew the Qun by heart now we got Iron full of Bull saying they don't  Bull was secret police his job was to lie lol

[Spirited Treasure]

Yes and Sten argues with the female warden, and with Morrigan. Saying it can not be so if you fight you cannot be female and if you are female you can not fight. Hence my post about Bull being too human.

I do not believe the Qun has changed so radically in these years.

[TheRevanchist]

Wow, still going with this. interesting. I for one, was as pleased as a pig in mud to see underwear sex was finally gone. It was done tastefully imo. Younger kids can't play it sure, but the game is rated M, shouldn't be playing it anyway imo. This of course is in reference to the guy above who screwed up what sexist means. 

[LinksOcarina]

Let´s see, Sera and Iron Bull´s sexist quotes. Iron Bull´s strange scene with stick, I was realy confused if I am in some sort of bad porn and those  IB´s sounds... uh still can´t shake it out of my mind. Krem and Dorian´s stories are built on the sexuality/gender issues. Ofc there is also sexual content in the game, which was somehow for someone improvment, but for me it was downgrade, because I did not buy a game for watching this, I bought if for gameplay and story.

 

Also it´s in the way of how are things done, in ME it was silent approach to these themes, what is behind door it stays there, but in DA:I is more about how it is going to kick to your teeths.

 

That is not sexism at all you know.

 

And if you feel it is...well, some characters are just sexist, like real life people. You really can't change that. 

 

And for the record, Dorian's personal arc is one that I think, while dangerously close to derivative territory, is one that was much needed. If anything, it gives credence to the idea that acceptance is a tricky thing, especially when involving characters you like. Plus, they did the right thing in not making him defined by his sexuality.

[Draining Dragon]

In a couple of years every game will be sanitized with political correctness that instead of npc's or gameworld we will just have a homogeneous grey mass where every particle is indistinguishable from the next. 
 
Next up, Bioware will retcon the broodmother, instead of women captured, tortured and corrupted into monsters whose sole propose is to give birth to more monsters, they will be non-gender specific humans, that voluntarily give themselves up to the darkspawn and then proceed to give birth only if they want.

The sad thing is that I can actually see Gaider going for that.

[synnerman]

Let´s see, Sera and Iron Bull´s sexist quotes. Iron Bull´s strange scene with stick, I was realy confused if I am in some sort of bad porn and those  IB´s sounds... uh still can´t shake it out of my mind. Krem and Dorian´s stories are built on the sexuality/gender issues. Ofc there is also sexual content in the game, which was somehow for someone improvment, but for me it was downgrade, because I did not buy a game for watching this, I bought if for gameplay and story.

 

Also it´s in the way of how are things done, in ME it was silent approach to these themes, what is behind door it stays there, but in DA:I is more about how it is going to kick to your teeths.

That's "sexual" not "sexist."  If you're going to accuse the game of polemic grandstanding at least use the terminology properly.

None of the things you've listed are vaguely sexist. I hate to break it to you, trans and gay people have different narratives. You don't have to play them. Don't invite them to your party.

Don't try to twist "sexism" to fit your provincial blinders.

[Gill Kaiser]

So, I am left confused by Bull, and Krem, and the open acceptance of Krem within the Qun according the Bull. Sten cannot believe your Warden is a woman, he is left dumbfounded by this fact. "A woman does not fight, why would a woman wish to be a man, it makes no sense." Yet here we have Krem, a woman who lives like a man, and Bull tells us, the Qun has NO PROBLEMS with this idea at all. Did Sten not get this memo? because he seems totally lost on something even related to this concept.

 

Sten seems far more loyal to the Qun than Bull is, true, but should that not imply he understands it just as well, if not better? Why is this concept so confusing to him, if the Qun already has a name for people like this, and openly accept them? 

 

It seems to me that in Qunari society, the Ben-Hassrath have a much less rigid and more complex understanding of the world and the way the Qun fits into it than the rank-and-file members of society, like Sten. 

 

Sten is a soldier, he understands the Qun in a straightforward manner. He knows how the world should be, and his place in it.

 

The Ben-Hassrath, on the other hand, are effectively the people who make the Qun happen. They by necessity must understand the way people of foreign cultures think, the way that qunari defectors think, and the root causes of any dissent against the qunari way of life. They are therefore, by qunari standards, realists. You can see that in Bull's approach to the world. He fully understands the Qun's teachings, but also understands that there are other ways of thinking.

[AzureAardvark]

Long story short, Bioware sanitized the Qun. 

 

Well, they started doing that with DA2 (possibly the novels, dunno, didn't read 'em), particularly the Mark of the Assassin DLC.

 

They created a society that is hardly something a modern person would sympathize with (I hope ) and have been progressively softening it over time to make it more sympathetic. 

 

Qun apologists are a *thing*.

[aries1001]

Reading this thread yesterday made me think about one word: perspective and viewpoint. Could it be that Sten is correct in what he tells you from his point of view? And that Iron Bull is also correct in what he tells you from his perspective? Sten may have played as a child, but remembers nothing of it, since he only remembers the studying of the Qun. Iron Bull could have studied the Qun, but all he remembers is playing etc. It's like my sister and me when I remember something from my childhood, she has a different view on the whole thing and vice versa.

[brightblueink]

I really, really don't think that Sten and The Iron Bull contradict themselves in that one particular aspect (how gender is treated). Nor do I think that it's impossible that a strict culture would be accepting of transgendered people, or at least the idea of gender being separate from biological sex.

 

There's actually quite a few cultures that recognize the idea of there being more than just the male and female genders, strictly tied to biological sex--Wikipedia lists a lot of them here. One of the cultures listed is India (and other places in south Asia) with their hijra. Recently in Indian law, it was established that they have legal protection, even legally allowing people to list their gender as "other" on official documents. This doesn't really mean they don't face any discrimination in India, but at the very least their culture does at least acknowledge that they exist--and we're talking about a country where homosexuality and bisexuality was recently recriminalized.

 

So really, the idea that, simply because the Qun is strict, they COULDN'T include transgendered people is a little silly to me. Just because they're strict doesn't mean they have to follow our ideas of strictness, particularly since in general Qunari culture is meant to be a little alien to us folks from the west.

 

Also, I'm not transgendered but I think it's pretty incorrect to say that Krem (or any other trans person) "chose" their gender. Krem obviously doesn't believe he did--he simply is a man. Krem, conveniently, has chosen a profession that fits in well with his gender under the qun, so Iron Bull doesn't really see a problem. Now if Krem was, say, a potter or a baker or something, Iron Bull would probably find that a little weird, just as Sten finds a female Warden being a soldier weird. In those cases, neither would be following what makes sense for their gender (not sex, gender--they're two separate concepts).

 

Krem would still not be given the freedom to choose his job, nor would he be choosing his gender--it just sounds like the Qunari would recognize pretty quickly that Krem was male, not female, and train him accordingly. That completely fits with what we've been told about the Qun so far and I really don't think it's a retcon.

 

Now the whole debate over Sten and Iron Bull's opinions on childhood is a little more valid, imo, since they do seem to clash quite a bit more.

[Fugiz]

Isnt Tallis a woman? She's Ben-Hassarath too and she fights. It seems to me that only women born under the Qun dont fight or become warriors but converts take on a the role they are suited to. So warriors remain warriors.

[joejoe099]

The major flaw in that statement is that the choice is still being made by the Tamassrans, not the individual in question.  It still gets assigned, you still have no choice in the matter.

 

The flaw in your statement is that a Tamassran would choice. The qun is set in stone, for life, law, and etc. It shouldn't come down to their personal choice.

[Han Shot First]

I thought Dorian's content dealing with his sexuality was well done, but that  the stuff with Iron Bull and Klem was hamfisted in comparison. It felt more like a PSA than Dorian's arc. 

 

It also was a retcon of sorts of how the Qun was portrayed in DA:O. I think Klem's story might have worked better if he wouldn't be accepted by 'true' Qunari, and the Iron Bull's friendship with Klem was part of his being conflicted on the Qun.

[joejoe099]

I thought Dorian's content dealing with his sexuality was well done, but that  the stuff with Iron Bull and Klem was hamfisted in comparison. It felt more like a PSA than Dorian's arc. 

 

It also was a retcon of sorts of how the Qun was portrayed in DA:O. I think Klem's story might have worked better if he wouldn't be accepted by 'true' Qunari, and the Iron Bull's friendship with Klem was part of his being conflicted on the Qun.

 

Although i'd describe Dorian's story as the cliche after school special of 'daddy don't like me cause I like man butt' I'd support Klem being part of a reason why Iron bull turns against the Qun. It'd add extra drama to it. "Do I go with the life i've been trained since birth to be loyal to, or the people that have followed me willingly through the thick and thin for the last few years, people who've i've been trained to distrust and betray?" It would've made him better than the constant "I swing big swords then make penis jokes about it!" feel you get from the guy all the other time.

[DarkSpiral]

The flaw in your statement is that a Tamassran would choice. The qun is set in stone, for life, law, and etc. It shouldn't come down to their personal choice.

 

Are you even sure about what you're saying anymore?  The Tamassran's role is to raise and observe children, and then choose the roles they will be placed in.  Of course the Tamassran's make a choice; that is their role under the Qun.  That isn't even up for debate.  The debate (was initially) about if the inclusion of the Aqun-athlok is a retcon.

 

If your understanding the debate is that flawed, go read up on the topic before coming into a thread and saying something so ridiculous.

[joejoe099]

Are you even sure about what you're saying anymore?  The Tamassran's role is to raise and observe children, and then choose the roles they will be placed in.  Of course the Tamassran's make a choice; that is their role under the Qun.  That isn't even up for debate.  The debate (was initially) about if the inclusion of the Aqun-athlok is a retcon.

 

If your understanding the debate is that flawed, go read up on the topic before coming into a thread and saying something so ridiculous.

 

I know what I said. I said that personal choice, even from a tamassran, doesn't exist due to the Qun's preset laws. The decision should already be made in such an environment, just the Tamassran vocalizes it for others to follow.

[Gill Kaiser]

Isnt Tallis a woman? She's Ben-Hassarath too and she fights. It seems to me that only women born under the Qun dont fight or become warriors but converts take on a the role they are suited to. So warriors remain warriors.

 

There's fighting, then there's fighting. Both men and women can be part of the Ben-Hassrath, and being able to fight is obviously an important part of certain Ben-Hassrath roles such as assassination and spywork. Being able to fight as part of a varied, specific skillset relevant to your role seems to be fine.

 

It's full-time soldiering that woman aren't designated for.

[Bod02]

I know what I said. I said that personal choice, even from a tamassran, doesn't exist due to the Qun's preset laws. The decision should already be made in such an environment, just the Tamassran vocalizes it for others to follow.

Yeah there's absolutely no room for stuff like gender identity. Next we'll be seeing Qunari otherkin. However, although a bit of a stretch I guess you could say exceptionally large and powerful women who are very talented in combat (dunno how they'd observe that naturally without testing everyone) could be selected for transfer.

 

There's fighting, then there's fighting. Both men and women can be part of the Ben-Hassrath, and being able to fight is obviously an important part of certain Ben-Hassrath roles such as assassination and spywork. Being able to fight as part of a varied, specific skillset relevant to your role seems to be fine.

 

It's full-time soldiering that woman aren't designated for.

Based on Felicia Day's show, I think I could beat up Tallis.

[Shahadem]

Yes Bioware did change the Qun. The Qun is very similar to the republic Socrates creates to figure out what justice is, and a woman trying to be a man rather than accepting she is a woman seems to violate the principles of the concept.

 

And if it was actually not abnormal for women to fight, why was Sten so incapable of accepting my female Hero of Ferelden? If thinks actually worked the way IB says they do, Sten would have instead asked her why she didn't cut her hair to make herself look more like a man. Instead, he's completely dumbfounded by the concept of ANY woman being a combatant, regardless of her gender identity.