646 réponses à ce sujet

[Bod02]

Although, it looks like hair length and style is androgynous for Qunaris.

[Sith Grey Warden]

On the different stories of Qunari childhood, I'm hoping that Iron Bull is lying to make the Qun less foreign and intimidating. The alternative that Bioware retconned the Qun to be friendlier would be very disappointing.

[movieguyabw]

Retcons happen all the time, people.  It's something that can't really be avoided if you're going to continue to make sequels to an original property.

 

That being said - I don't know if it's necessarily contradictory.  When Sten confronts you, he says that one can not be a woman *and* a warrior - to which you can reply something to the extent of "well, I *am* a woman and a warrior"  his response is along the lines of "evidently, one of those is not true."

 

It's not that much of a stretch to think that Sten ended up looking at the Warden as a man from that point on.

 

As for Iron Bull - others have pointed it out; but he had already lost faith in the Qun prior to Inquisition.  He was afraid, however, that without the Qun to guide him he'd wind up becoming a savage; and so he turned himself in to the re-educators.  IIRC they didn't actually do anything with him, though; they just made him a spy and sent him out in the field, because he came back to them willingly.  This is why he is incredibly touchy if someone suggests he's Tal-Vashoth, why he comes across as a hedonist, and why he's so quick to shirk his responsibilities to the Qun when his mercenary group is in danger.  Iron Bull is probably the worst example of someone who adheres to the Qun.  Even if (until his loyalty mission) he tries desperately hard to convince himself he hasn't lost his faith.

 

 

Here's the thing, though.  Bioware originally developed the Qun as something that would sound completely alien and rather undesirable to the player.  Dragon Age 2 rolls around, and they want to do more with the Qunari.  They have tensions run high between the Qunari and the people of Kirkwall because the way the Qunari see the world is in complete contradiction to the way *we* see the world.  Eventually there needs to be a spark that sets things off.  Because the Qun is heavy on followers not actually making choices for themselves, and only acting in a predefined way; they aren't going to be the ones to set things off.  The spark has to come from the Kirkwall government somehow stepping on the toes of the Qunari - and that is done when criminals offer themselves to the Qunari, wishing to convert to the Qun and seek refuge in their embassy.

 

That brings me to the point:  they needed to make the Qun sound at least somewhat desirable, so that it's even remotely believable that people would want to convert.  And if they're going to have criminals attempt to convert, they need to set a precedent so that the audience knows that this is something the Qunari would even allow.  Other converts have to exist somewhere - and given that Kirkwall coming to arrest a couple converts is enough for the Arishok to declare war, the converts have to be seen as more or less equals to the other Qunari.

 

So... yeah.  It's not hard at all to see why the Qun has become more "sanitized".  If it wasn't no one would believe that anyone could, or would, convert; and without that, the Qunari and Kirkwall government just sit at a standstill for all of DA2.

[DiabolicallyRandom]

They retconned the qunari heavily for DA2 and just did it further for DA:I. It has always been my biggest annoyance with the series. They should have just ignored the Qunari after DAO if they didn't like where they were at and made up some new race.

[joejoe099]

That brings me to the point:  they needed to make the Qun sound at least somewhat desirable, so that it's even remotely believable that people would want to convert.  And if they're going to have criminals attempt to convert, they need to set a precedent so that the audience knows that this is something the Qunari would even allow.  Other converts have to exist somewhere - and given that Kirkwall coming to arrest a couple converts is enough for the Arishok to declare war, the converts have to be seen as more or less equals to the other Qunari.

 

So... yeah.  It's not hard at all to see why the Qun has become more "sanitized".  If it wasn't no one would believe that anyone could, or would, convert; and without that, the Qunari and Kirkwall government just sit at a standstill for all of DA2.

 

they could've retconed it a hundred different ways, but they choose this? really? They could've gotten rid of the poison ball of mind melting-ness, or the BDSM mages, or the ' you don't follow the Qun, you're not worth my time/need to be destroyed.' mentality, but this? Something that doesn't even go with the logic of the Qun where it puts your role in it to such an importance it's your name? Hell, let just take back the fact that some women in it are chosen JUST for breeding.

 

Personally, i'd enjoy having a cut-and-dry culture like this exist in dragon age. it's not like the real world in the slightest. Oh, and elves and peasant humans are constantly down stepped on by the upper class humans to the point where they might see the qun as a better life, making it a favorable choice. If some one in the real world thinks that just because they accept trans-people, they ain't all bad, despite all the other brain-washy things they do, they're just stupid.

[K3m0sabe]

So... yeah.  It's not hard at all to see why the Qun has become more "sanitized".  If it wasn't no one would believe that anyone could, or would, convert; and without that, the Qunari and Kirkwall government just sit at a standstill for all of DA2.

 

Considering the number of western european or american citizens joining radical islamic groups, i would say its entirely possible for someone to leave their society for something seen as entirely alien in nature.

 

The converts to the Qun that we see in Thedas are mainly from conquered lands, and it's normal for people from one culture who have been conquered to convert to the conquerors religion/culture in order to better fit in and maintain a living. The codex points out that out of all the conquered nations by the Qunari in Thedas, only one maintained the Qun when it gained its independence, most others went back to the chantry. 

[K3m0sabe]

Which codex is this again?

 

Codex entry: Par Vollen: The Occupied North

 

In the 30th year of the Steel Age, the first Qunari ships were sighted off the coast of Par Vollen in the far north, marking the beginning of a new age of warfare.

History calls this the First Qunari War, but it was mostly a one-sided bloodbath, with the Qunari advancing far into the mainland. Qunari warriors in glittering steel armor carved through armies with ease. Their cannons, the likes of which our ancestors had never seen, reduced city walls to rubble in a matter of seconds.

Stories of Qunari occupation vary greatly. It is said they dismantled families and sent captives to "learning camps" for indoctrination into their religion. Those who refused to cooperate disappeared to mines or construction camps.

 

For every tale of suffering, however, there is another of enlightenment deriving from something called the "Qun." This is either a philosophical code or a written text that governs all aspects of Qunari life, perhaps both. One converted Seheran reported pity for those who refused to embrace the Qun, as if the conquerors had led him to a sort of self-discovery. "For all my life, I followed the Maker wherever his path led me," he wrote, "but in the Qun I have found the means to travel my own path."

 

It has been said that the most complete way to wipe out a people is not with blades but with books. Thankfully, a world that had repelled four Blightswould not easily bow to a foreign aggressor. And so the Exalted Marches began.

 

The greatest advantage of the Chantry-led forces was the Circle of Magi. For all their technology, the Qunari appeared to harbor great hatred for magic. Faced with cannons, the Chantry responded with lightning and balls of fire.

 

The Qunari armies lacked the sheer numbers of humanity. So many were slain at Marnas Pell, on both sides, that the Veil is said to be permanently sundered, the ruins still plagued by restless corpses. But each year, the Chantry pushed further and further into the Qunari lines, although local converts to the Qun proved difficult to return to Andraste's teachings.

 

By the end of the Storm Age, the Qunari were truly pushed back. Rivain was the only human land that retained the Qunari religion after being freed, and its rulers attempted to barter a peace. Most human lands signed the Llomerryn Accord, excepting the Tevinter Imperium. It is a shaky peace that has lasted to this day.

 

--From The Exalted Marches: An Examination of Chantry Warfare, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar

[DarkSpiral]

I know what I said. I said that personal choice, even from a tamassran, doesn't exist due to the Qun's preset laws. The decision should already be made in such an environment, just the Tamassran vocalizes it for others to follow.

That makes no sense, and it deviates completely from what we've been taught about the Tamassran's role under the Qun.  They are the ones that make the decision to which role a youngster will be assigned.  You're suggesting...what?  That Qunari society has some kind of collective consensus, and the Tamassrans just consult that?

 

Personally, i'd enjoy having a cut-and-dry culture like this exist in dragon age. it's not like the real world in the slightest. Oh, and elves and peasant humans are constantly down stepped on by the upper class humans to the point where they might see the qun as a better life, making it a favorable choice. If some one in the real world thinks that just because they accept trans-people, they ain't all bad, despite all the other brain-washy things they do, they're just stupid.

 

I find that one dimensional villains, even villains that are actually whole societies, are boring and counter to the franchise's theme.

 

And I don't really recall anyone suggesting that the unari are more attractive as an option because their society places more emphasis on the job you are assigned, rather than the gender of the person in question.  Under the Qun, your role is everything.

And it still isn't a retcon.  Many of the examples you give would be, as they would directly contradict an established, objective fact.  Whether or not Sten and Bull's dialogue can be reconciled isn't fact, its interpretation.

[Master Race]

I for one would welcome the retcon of the Qun to make it friendlier.

[K3m0sabe]

Biowares take on the qunari seems to be changing with each game, in Origins they were seen as this foreign civilization that was so technologically advanced to thedas that they went into battle with cannons, and i assume other forms of gun powder based weapons, that they took large portions of thedas easily, only being stopped through magic. 

 

What we see from them in DA2 and DA:I is little more than a your typical medieval society, going into battle half naked, with swords and shields. 

[Bod02]

Biowares take on the qunari seems to be changing with each game, in Origins they were seen as this foreign civilization that was so technologically advanced to thedas that they went into battle with cannons, and i assume other forms of gun powder based weapons, that they took large portions of thedas easily, only being stopped through magic. 

 

What we see from them in DA2 and DA:I is little more than a your typical medieval society, going into battle half naked, with swords and shields. 

Maybe they're so technologically advanced that they have tumblr now.

[berrieh]

Yes Bioware did change the Qun. The Qun is very similar to the republic Socrates creates to figure out what justice is, and a woman trying to be a man rather than accepting she is a woman seems to violate the principles of the concept.

 

And if it was actually not abnormal for women to fight, why was Sten so incapable of accepting my female Hero of Ferelden? If thinks actually worked the way IB says they do, Sten would have instead asked her why she didn't cut her hair to make herself look more like a man. Instead, he's completely dumbfounded by the concept of ANY woman being a combatant, regardless of her gender identity.

 

At the beginning of that conversation, Sten observes you are a woman or asks if you are a woman (depending on how you interpret his line). If you were to say, "No, I am a man," who knows what Sten would or would not accept? Maybe he'd be, "Oh, that makes sense then." 

 

Krem isn't a woman. Krem is a man. That's the thing. And it's not an option your female Warden had in terms of identity. 

[Bod02]

What we're saying is it's completely illogical for Qunari society to care in the least what someone identifies as.

[Shelidon]

That being said - I don't know if it's necessarily contradictory.  When Sten confronts you, he says that one can not be a woman *and* a warrior - to which you can reply something to the extent of "well, I *am* a woman and a warrior"  his response is along the lines of "evidently, one of those is not true."

I completely agree: that is the point.
On the other side, Krem sees himself as a man, and so does Bull. He is not a woman, if biologically, and that has no importance whatsoever. There's also some colourful way of expressing this, if you confront with Bull on the matter, and it involces the unimportance of Krem's ability to do a specific natural activity while standing. That conversation was enlightening and, actually, I feel like Bull has something to teach to us all. I just love the guy.

[Rykoth]

The Qun is not friendly.

 

The "changes" they did was show that regardless of society, people are still individuals. And the Qunari will no doubt deny that, but it's true.

 

Sten may have been shaped by the Qun but he had a specific personality, and though he'll deny it, he made choices specific to his character. Iron Bull is shaped by the Qun and experiences outside of it - so naturally he'll have a very different personality. He's the anti-Sten that way.

 

But make no mistake, the Qun is not friendly. It's not evil either. It's not good nor bad in of itself.

 

The Qun - as I understood it from the beginning - was all about having a place. Men are not greater than women - they're different. Humans are not better than elves - they're both pathetic in the eyes of the Qun unless they convert. An elf and a human that are both converts and both become warriors? They're both sten, and thus, equals.

 

A man fights as a sten. A woman does not. But under the Qun, that doesn't mean the woman is lesser. A man cannot be a Tamassran. That doesn't make him inferior. Everyone has a set place and position.

 

The difference between DAI Qun and DAO and DA2 is we finally see that Qunari *do* have personalities. They do have friends. They do have relationships. They just handle it all differently. Even Sten had his merry band of Qunari that got wiped out. Remember his Fade dream?

[joejoe099]

The Qun is not friendly.

 

The "changes" they did was show that regardless of society, people are still individuals. And the Qunari will no doubt deny that, but it's true.

 

Sten may have been shaped by the Qun but he had a specific personality, and though he'll deny it, he made choices specific to his character. Iron Bull is shaped by the Qun and experiences outside of it - so naturally he'll have a very different personality. He's the anti-Sten that way.

 

But make no mistake, the Qun is not friendly. It's not evil either. It's not good nor bad in of itself.

 

The Qun - as I understood it from the beginning - was all about having a place. Men are not greater than women - they're different. Humans are not better than elves - they're both pathetic in the eyes of the Qun unless they convert. An elf and a human that are both converts and both become warriors? They're both sten, and thus, equals.

 

A man fights as a sten. A woman does not. But under the Qun, that doesn't mean the woman is lesser. A man cannot be a Tamassran. That doesn't make him inferior. Everyone has a set place and position.

 

The difference between DAI Qun and DAO and DA2 is we finally see that Qunari *do* have personalities. They do have friends. They do have relationships. They just handle it all differently. Even Sten had his merry band of Qunari that got wiped out. Remember his Fade dream?

 

This is a brilliant way to explain the qun as well. it just doesn't seem friendly enough to care what you say you are. I think that's why this thread has gone on for so long. Nothing prior has suggested the qun had this softness.

[Namea]

Because Krem is not a woman. He is a MAN. 

Your warden if female is still a woman. Under the Qun she would be considered a woman and identifies as a woman (there is no option otherwise in DA:O unfortunately).

 

Krem however, despite his biology, is a man. He identifies as a man so the Qun would see him as a man. 

 

Sten says Women do not fight in the Qun because they don't but that does not mean that men who happen to have vaginas don't fight. 

[theblackfox]

Isnt Tallis a woman? She's Ben-Hassarath too and she fights. It seems to me that only women born under the Qun dont fight or become warriors but converts take on a the role they are suited to. So warriors remain warriors.

 

Well, regarding Tallis I think the answer is quite simple. Felicia Day wanted to play an elf - because elves are awesome - and at the same time a kick-ass assassin chick with an outlandish and questionable moral code, so Tallis was born and lore got thrown out of the window.

[Osena109]

Because Krem is not a woman. He is a MAN. 

Your warden if female is still a woman. Under the Qun she would be considered a woman and identifies as a woman (there is no option otherwise in DA:O unfortunately).

 

Krem however, despite his biology, is a man. He identifies as a man so the Qun would see him as a man. 

 

Sten says Women do not fight in the Qun because they don't but that does not mean that men who happen to have vaginas don't fight. 

But she is not a Man she is a Women there is no way around that just   Because you say that you are  a man dos not make it so  you are Born a man you simply can't become one thats the way the Qun see's it according to Sten   

[DarkSpiral]

Well, regarding Tallis I think the answer is quite simple. Felicia Day wanted to play an elf - because elves are awesome - and at the same time a kick-ass assassin chick with an outlandish and questionable moral code, so Tallis was born and lore got thrown out of the window.

Oh brother.

 

Felicia Day got hired to play a character that was already written.  And the Ben-Hassrith are taught to fight, but they aren't soldiers.  They're agents of the Qunari government.