646 réponses à ce sujet

[Drasanil]

*shrug*

 

I don't agree with you.

 

That's nice. Do you have any actual points with which to back it up or are you just pulling a Sera?

[DarkSpiral]

That means the Qun does not really tolerate dissenting opinion. You said they are likely the same in having different opinions. 

That was Kevs, not me, but okay I understand your meaning now.

[Uriel]

I didn't see any problem. If your Warden is a woman, she speaks of herself with feminine words and makes clear she's a woman (you can even answer to Sten "I am a woman"). Sten has got problems with a woman fighting, because in Qun it's a man's job. Krem behaves like a man and speaks of himself with masculine words. He makes really clear that he's a man. So he can have a man's job according to the Qun.

[Geth Supremacy]

That's nice. Do you have any actual points with which to back it up or are you just pulling a Sera?

 

hahaha i remember us going back a forth a little a while back.  i love how you respond.  that stuff is funny to me.  I will say you knew your Qun lore though.

[Drasanil]

hahaha i remember us going back a forth a little a while back.  i love how you respond.  that stuff is funny to me.  I will say you knew your Qun lore though.

 

Best way to defeat one's enemy is to know them

 

You really should consider switching over to the winning team btw!

[TheRevanchist]

 

Very first conversation...Bull was not raised in the same Qunadaar.

[DarkSpiral]

That's nice. Do you have any actual points with which to back it up or are you just pulling a Sera?

You stated an opinion, which is that Sten and Bull contradict one another.  I don't agree with it, and your points fail to be convincing.  There is no retcon until an actual contradiction occurs.

 

It's not a question of needing to see Qunari lands, nor is it that they were raised for different purposes, some things simply don't match up. Like Sten spending his childhood studying and memorizing the Qun [remember he's the soldier who only really needs to know how to hit things] and Bull the Ben-Hassarath [the religious police who should know the Qun inside out] not actually knowing the intricacies of what he is supposed to be upholding. 

Bull also led the Qunari forces in Seheron.  That sounds like the job for one of the Antaam, a warrior.  Yet Bull is doing it.  Does this mean what we knew about Qunari society had been altered, or does it mean we don't know enough about Qunari society yet to do something as arrogant as declare that Bioware has altered the Qun?

[Lady Artifice]

Best way to defeat one's enemy is to know them

 

You really should consider switching over to the winning team btw!

 

 

You are so right...He absolutely should. 

[Kevs]

That means the Qun does not really tolerate dissenting opinion. You said they are likely the same in having different opinions. 

Okay, that was poor word choice on my part. Maybe not different opinions, but minor misunderstandings is a more appropriate way to call it. Or lacking full understanding maybe?

 

My point is, while every Qunari is required to memorize the Qun, that doesn't mean they can all fully understand and interpret the Qun (hence my comparison of every Chantry sister knowing every verse of the Chant, but they still follow the guidance of the revered mothers).

 

Anyways, I'm only trying to make an explanation in regards to Drasanil's post above of why the need for Temassrans when "every Qunari knows the Qun by heart".

[Vormaerin]

Long story short, Bioware sanitized the Qun. And that really really sucks. What gave the Qun any tangible meaning was that it was an entirely alien way to organise a society, like a logic experiment gone wrong, and they took that away and made it dreadfully PC and 'safe'.

 

Uhh, accepting Krem as a man is sanitizing the Qun?  How is that undermining the alien-ness of the Qun?  If anything, unconditional acceptance of transgenders is more alien than not doing so.

 

There's nothing incompatible about what they say.  Both show a society that is rigid, stratified, unaccepting of divergence, and organized in a way that is entirely unlike any human society on Thedas.  Communal child rearing.  No nuclear families.  Children having numbers and adults having titles. No tolerance for mavericks.

 

The difference is not in the Qun. Its in the speaker.  Sten is a very traditional Qunari with limited experience of human culture and quite recent emotional trauma.  The Iron Bull is as maverick as the Qun allows and has long years of experience dealing with human culture and the way things work in southern Thedas.  He's obviously rather flippant by nature at this point. Its quite likely that Sten and The Iron Bull would describe the exact same events in very different ways.

[TheRevanchist]

Okay, that was poor word choice on my part. Maybe not different opinions, but minor misunderstandings is a more appropriate way to call it. Or lacking full understanding maybe?

 

My point is, while every Qunari is required to memorize the Qun, that doesn't mean they can all fully understand and interpret the Qun (hence my comparison of every Chantry sister knowing every verse of the Chant, but they still follow the guidance of the revered mothers).

 

Anyways, I'm only trying to make an explanation in regards to Drasanil's post above of why the need for Temassrans when "every Qunari knows the Qun by heart".

 

The "need" of the Temassrans is no longer clear. Sten said it was to teach them their place in the world, Bull implies it is to basically be the Nannies and sex "healers"

[Drasanil]

You stated an opinion, which is that Sten and Bull contradict one another.  I don't agree with it, and your points fail to be convincing.  There is no retcon until an actual contradiction occurs.

 

Bull also led the Qunari forces in Seheron.  That sounds like the job for one of the Antaam, a warrior.  Yet Bull is doing it.  Does this mean what we knew about Qunari society had been altered, or does it mean we don't know enough about Qunari society yet to do something as arrogant as declare that Bioware has altered the Qun?

 

1) Actually Sten and Bull do directly contradict each other. Sten was raised as a soldier, as was Bull until the Tamassarans learned he was also good at lying. Yet they still had completely different childhoods, despite being originally raised for the same purpose. You'd think Bull would at least remember something of the endless days spent in study of the Qun. Yet he claims no one but the priests really know it. How odd.  

 

2) Bull was the leader of the counter-insurgency forces, that could fall just as easily under the military as the police. Which is what the Ben-Hassarath, or at least his wing of it are, so no it's not really a contradiction. 

[Drasanil]

Uhh, accepting Krem as a man is sanitizing the Qun?  How is that undermining the alien-ness of the Qun?  If anything, unconditional acceptance of transgenders is more alien than not doing so.

 

Yes it is, because the original premise of the Qun was that you bent to suit it, not the other way around. Accepting transgenders kind of defeats that purpose, especially when the Qun has brainwashing facilities to 'fix' everything else under the sun.

[DarkSpiral]

1) Actually Sten and Bull do directly contradict each other. Sten was raised as a soldier, as was Bull until the Tamassarans learned he was also good at lying. Yet they still had completely different childhoods, despite being originally raised for the same purpose. You'd think Bull would at least remember something of the endless days spent in study of the Qun. Yet he claims no one but the priests really know it. How odd.

So, in other words the ways Tamassarans teach children change, based on their tendencies and talents?  Sounds to me then like the Tamassrans could raise children with different tempermenst using different techniques?  Until you can prove that the Tamassrans raise every single child exactly the same way, then Bull and Sten do not necessarily contradict one another.

[Lexxbomb]

Its a retconn plain and simple. the incredibly rigid structure of the Qun would not have even allowed someone like Krem to exist. 
They wanted to appeal to a demographic. Krem is still forgettable. 

[DarkSpiral]

Yes it is, because the original premise of the Qun was that you bent to suit it, not the other way around.

Now, that right there is your own assumption.  We know how adults that are being converted are treated, which is that you bend to the teachings of the Qun, or you are exposed to qamek.  That doesn't mean children growing up in the Qun are treated the same way.

[robertthebard]

Bull also says no one but the tamassarans really know the Qun, yet Sten says he, and every Qunary, learned the entire Qun by heart. Sten also has no concept of 'playing' where as Bull had a jolly good old childhood playing blocks with dear old mommy tamassaran.
 
Long story short, Bioware sanitized the Qun. And that really really sucks. What gave the Qun any tangible meaning was that it was an entirely alien way to organise a society, like a logic experiment gone wrong, and they took that away and made it dreadfully PC and 'safe'.

*Giggles*

Sten: What?

Leliana: I saw you back there, playing with that kitten.

Very rough paraphrase, but you get the idea, I haven't seen the banter for a while. Sten totally has no idea about "play".

[DarkSpiral]

*Giggles*

Sten: What?

Leliana: I saw you back there, playing with that kitten.

Very rough paraphrase, but you get the idea, I haven't seen the banter for a while. Sten totally has no idea about "play".

 

Well said.

[Drasanil]

So, in other words the ways Tamassarans teach children change, based on their tendencies and talents?  Sounds to me then like the Tamassrans could raise children with different tempermenst using different techniques?  Until you can prove that the Tamassrans raise every single child exactly the same way, then Bull and Sten do not necessarily contradict one another.

 

1) Except for the fact they would have been raised the same until the priests found out Bull was good at lying and fighting.

 

2) And the fact that all children learn the Qun by heart by heart according to Sten [whose job does not require proper knowledge of the Qun], whilst Bull [whose job does require in-depth knowledge of the Qun] claims only a certain subset of people need to know it. 

 

Those are contradicatory things. Sten and Bull present different visions of the Qun that you refuse to recognize it does not make it any less true. 

 

PS: Of course, entirely possible Bull is blowing hot air about it all given his official job description/name is liar. 

[TheRevanchist]

Now, that right there is your own assumption.  We no how adults that are being converted are treated, which is you bend to the teachings of the Qun, or you are exposed to sarkamek (sp?).  That doesn't mean children growing up in the Qun are treated the same way.

 

The Re-Educators would not exist if it was otherwise, for anyone. You follow the Qun or you die. Period. The children don't need to be "broken" because they are raised from birth to follow the Qun.

[Dean_the_Young]

This is not how it came across from Sten.

 

Sten was Sten, a biased low-level viewpoint from a separate part of the Qun who wasn't particularly eloquent and freely admitted he wasn't the best authoritative expert on trying to explain the Qun.

[TheRevanchist]

Sten was Sten, a biased low-level viewpoint from a separate part of the Qun who wasn't particularly eloquent and freely admitted he wasn't the best authoritative expert on trying to explain the Qun.

 

No, he said it is not his Job to explain the Qun. He could have, very easily, because he said he spent his entire childhood studying and memorizing it.

[robertthebard]

1) Except for the fact they would have been raised the same until the priests found out Bull was good at lying and fighting.
 
2) And the fact that all children learn the Qun by heart by heart according to Sten [whose job does not require proper knowledge of the Qun], whilst Bull [whose job does require in-depth knowledge of the Qun] claims only a certain subset of people need to know it. 
 
Those are contradicatory things. Sten and Bull present different visions of the Qun that you refuse to recognize it does not make it any less true. 
 
PS: Of course, entirely possible Bull is blowing hot air about it all given his official job description/name is liar. 

There's this other issue that I have though. I have been exposed to the Qun twice, well three times, if we count Tallis; Sten and Iron Bull. How much do I really know to say "They changed it". The Arishock should have counted, but since it seems he didn't really follow the Qun either, based on what we're given, how do we have anything like enough information to say one way or the other. I mean, seriously, if we take Sten at face value, then the Qun is largely "No".

[Drasanil]

*Giggles*

Sten: What?

Leliana: I saw you back there, playing with that kitten.

Very rough paraphrase, but you get the idea, I haven't seen the banter for a while. Sten totally has no idea about "play".

 

He is also entirely dumbfounded by seeing children outside playing and you have an entire conversation about it with him. 

 

I'm more inclined to believe the entire expose/conversation is more representative of Sten/the Qun [given he was meant to be our introduction to it] than one banter line where he claims he is helping a kitten train. Which given his mindset is quite likely to be true. 

[DarkSpiral]

The Re-Educators would not exist if it was otherwise, for anyone. You follow the Qun or you die. Period. The children don't need to be "broken" because they are raised from birth to follow the Qun.

They certainly would.  Bull was raised from birth and yet went to the re-educators when he could no longer understand the purpose of his role.  Re-educators reinforce the Qun's teachings to those who have lost their way...whether they like it or not.

That has very little to do with the idea that children are all taught the same way.  Its merely an assumption to assume that the Tamassran's use exactly one technique to teach, and test, children.  And yes, I am also making the assumption that more than one technique could exist, because we don't know for certain one way or another.  Which is why there isn't yet a contradiction.