646 réponses à ce sujet

[Bod02]

Dogkin, or Canis Do-Bar in Qunari. Don't worry they'll be in the next dragon age.

 

The transphobic assholes in this thread are incredible.

What do you expect hey. God damn cis scum make me sick

[celestialfury]

I'm not being deliberately obtuse. I'm pointing out that you are attaching your understanding to the words, not the Qun's. 

 

Sten even asks, "You look like a woman?" - and waits for confirmation - before expressing his disapproval at the female Warden fighting. Do you know what he would have said if you'd said, "Well, I'm not, I'm a man." I don't. That wasn't an option presented to me in DA:O. 

 

Sten also says all are equal under the Qun, but that some belong at the bottom, in a conversation with Shale. There are often interesting meanings to his words. I think BioWare created quite an intensely complicated society in the Qunari, and I have no problem reconciling this with their ideas of people being what they are meant to be and nothing more. 

 

Your sense that someone is a woman because they are born with a vagina cannot be applied to the Qunari necessarily. There is no evidence or facts that show that it can. 

 

You can't say you're a man because you're not one, you're playing a female character. 

 

Sten asking this question doesn't mean he thinks you can decide your sex by self-identifying, he's just confused by the PC not sticking to the Qun's role for women. He asks ''Why would women wish to be men?'' and I don't see why he also wouldn't say the same to a woman who happens to bind and claims she's a man because once again, you are what you are born as, you do not choose, it's beyond your control, etc. Moreover Qunaris are educated into fitting the role attributed to them since they're children, Tamassrans teach them their their place in the world and how to know themselves. Do you think they ask them if they identified as men or women first? It's clearly assigned based on their sex. 

[Ryzaki]

Yes BW has changed the Qun.

 

It's called development. It happens.

 

The same way they changed the Geth, the same way they changed the genophage.

 

Change tends to occur on years long projects with multiple contributors.

 

Big whoop.

[Nefla]

Yes BW has changed the Qun.

 

It's called development. It happens.

 

The same way they changed the Geth, the same way they changed the genophage.

 

Change tends to occur on years long projects with multiple contributors.

 

Big whoop.

I wonder if the Qunari will play a bigger part in the future and that's why they changed the Qun to be more palatable?

[joejoe099]

Yes BW has changed the Qun.

 

It's called development. It happens.

 

The same way they changed the Geth, the same way they changed the genophage.

 

Change tends to occur on years long projects with multiple contributors.

 

Big whoop.

 

They made a schism of the geth. Not the greatest way to explain how they changed, but acceptable. They also only said how the genophage works, never changing how it worked.

 

they set a precedent of cold, hard logic winning over emotion or feeling with the Qun, seeing as every pure member we saw in DAO and 2 acted without emotion for the most part, and even spoke without it, or at least sounding like in a calm annoyed way.

 

This is a 180 of their set up, to allow some one's feeling on identity be put forward than everything else.

[Ryzaki]

They made a schism of the geth. Not the greatest way to explain how they changed, but acceptable. They also only said how the genophage works, never changing how it worked.

 

they set a precedent of cold, hard logic winning over emotion or feeling with the Qun, seeing as every pure member we saw in DAO and 2 acted without emotion for the most part, and even spoke without it, or at least sounding like in a calm annoyed way.

 

This is a 180 of their set up, to allow some one's feeling on identity be put forward than everything else.

 

No they really didn't. They had the geth attacking people in their space for years but then backtracked and tried to claim that didn't happen. (Frankly I'm inclined to believe it was the heretical geth faction but again...it's pretty shaky). They also then had the Geth desire to become more organic like despite ME2 Legion saying that's exactly what they didn't want.

 

Also the genophage went from merely reducing fertility to creating stillbirths. Mordin is very distinct on it only lowering fertility in ME2. But that's not as dramatic as stillbirths so that got tweaked.

 

And how on earth is not throwing away a perfectly good soldier not logic?

 

I'm sorry but yes these sorts of changes happen in game development all the time. Look at Cerberus from ME1 to ME2 to ME3.

 

I wonder if the Qunari will play a bigger part in the future and that's why they changed the Qun to be more palatable?

 

Supposedly they want to explore the north so most likely.

 

The no sex thing never made any sense to me. The only way it could even half way work is if the Qunari race had very low sex drives. It makes far more sense with the sex workers.

[Nefla]

Supposedly they want to explore the north so most likely.

 

The no sex thing never made any sense to me. The only way it could even half way work is if the Qunari race had very low sex drives. It makes far more sense with the sex workers.

Me either. I mean I guess if they were trying to breed a society of perfect super soldiers or something it would follow that they'd strictly control baby making but in that case they'd also probably kill the weak or lesser while still children and wouldn't accept converts from other races. It feels like in the past games they took all these crappy things (sexism, thought policing, atrocious treatment of mages, etc...) and rolled them into one but added a few positive aspects (your talent elevating you rather than your race or noble status, everyone except mages is pretty much oppressed on the same level, etc...) to make you conflicted about it like with those elves that killed a guard in DA2 because he raped their sister and as awful as the Qun was, at least it didn't ignore rapists (or something). Now it's accepting and laid back though that could be Iron Bull's denial. It would be interesting if in a future game or DLC we go to a Qunari city and see how the culture is.

[Ryzaki]

Me either. I mean I guess if they were trying to breed a society of perfect super soldiers or something it would follow that they'd strictly control baby making but in that case they'd also probably kill the weak or lesser while still children and wouldn't accept converts from other races. It feels like in the past games they took all these crappy things (sexism, thought policing, atrocious treatment of mages, etc...) and rolled them into one but added a few positive aspects (your talent elevating you rather than your race or noble status, everyone except mages is pretty much oppressed on the same level, etc...) to make you conflicted about it like with those elves that killed a guard in DA2 because he raped their sister and as awful as the Qun was, at least it didn't ignore rapists (or something). Now it's accepting and laid back though that could be Iron Bull's denial. It would be interesting if in a future game or DLC we go to a Qunari city and see how the culture is.

 

 

Yep. If it wasn't for the Viddathari the whole no sex thing could make sense as simply being a by product of their species low sex drive...except they accept anyone so that's out.

 

And yeah it does feel like in DAO they just threw a bunch of bad crap in a pot and called it a day. Then realized "wait...if we want to actually expand on this there has to be a reason for these people to actually stick around." and tried to add some good at least enough to justify people sticking around.

 

That said I doubt the Qunari are that accepting about it. It's probably a grudging "Since you'll be useless otherwise FINE." sort of thing and Bull's letting his desperation for the Qun to still mean something for him tint his views on it. (Another reason  I much prefer getting him away from the Qun.) So no I'm not saying the Qunari are all "YAY" and accepting  about it. They're probably just reasonable enough to realize even a slightly messed up hammer is better than none (in their view anyway). And perhaps they send them on the crappy high risk jobs they don't want to send their more valuable troops on. The Qunari waste nothing after all.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

I think there is some misunderstanding on what It means to be Trans. From my VERY limited understanding, a person learns they are Trans from a very early age. And one could even say it's biological issue as much as social.

My anthropology 101 class taught that 'sex' (the physical attributes) and 'gender' (the socially assigned binary role) are NOT always the same thing.

This isn't a new idea. Many cultures have operated under the assumption that manliness or womanliness are separate from what you got going on in your pants.

Why wouldn't the Qunari have a sophisticated conscept of gender identity? The Qun is about EMBRACING your ROLE. If the Tamassarans decided that a persons role was a man, (regardless of sex which the Qunari don't see as much of a big deal anyway) would they care that that man would need to bind their chest to fit this role?

I don't see this as a 'change in the Qun.' Could it be we are finally understanding more about it?

[Bod02]

Yes BW has changed the Qun.

 

It's called development. It happens.

 

The same way they changed the Geth, the same way they changed the genophage.

 

Change tends to occur on years long projects with multiple contributors.

 

Big whoop.

 

I think no one is too upset about it. It's just a bit cringey and we're mainly trying to put some sense into the people who are saying that there's no retcon whatsoever and that it makes perfect sense.
 

[Ryzaki]

I think no one is too upset about it. It's just a bit cringey and we're mainly trying to put some sense into the people who are saying that there's no retcon whatsoever and it that it makes perfect sense.
 

 

Okay that's fair.

 

I'm just getting the vibe that people are acting like this is some foreign concept. Yeah there's changes. DAO came out in 2009 and the backstory for the Qunari was written even earlier. It'd be more concerning to me if the Devs didn't tweak it considering how freaking vague (And frankly implausible considering the no sex crap) it was in DAO.

[Shahadem]

I think there is some misunderstanding on what It means to be Trans. From my VERY limited understanding, a person learns they are Trans from a very early age. And one could even say it's biological issue as much as social.

My anthropology 101 class taught that 'sex' (the physical attributes) and 'gender' (the socially assigned binary role) are NOT always the same thing.

This isn't a new idea. Many cultures have operated under the assumption that manliness or womanliness are separate from what you got going on in your pants.

Why wouldn't the Qunari have a sophisticated conscept of gender identity? The Qun is about EMBRACING your ROLE. If the Tamassarans decided that a persons role was a man, (regardless of sex which the Qunari don't see as much of a big deal anyway) would they care that that man would need to bind their chest to fit this role?

I don't see this as a 'change in the Qun.' Could it be we are finally understanding more about it?

 

That class was talking about gender as identity and choice. The Qun is based on identity from nature. if nature gave you man parts then it was because nature assigned you the role man. If nature gave you lady parts, then nature assigned you the role of lady.

 

If the Qun didn't care about sex only gender identity, then Sten would never have been surprised to see a female Grey Warden fighting. He would have simply thought she thought she thought she was a man and would have never brought it up. Sten does bring it up because under the Qun, identity is based on genitals, not gender identification.

[Bod02]

Okay that's fair.

 

I'm just getting the vibe that people are acting like this is some foreign concept. Yeah there's changes. DAO came out in 2009 and the backstory for the Qunari was written even earlier. It'd be more concerning to me if the Devs didn't tweak it considering how freaking vague (And frankly implausible considering the no sex crap) it was in DAO.

Yeah. The whole look of the Qunari is a far more obvious change.

 

I think there is some misunderstanding on what It means to be Trans. From my VERY limited understanding, a person learns they are Trans from a very early age. And one could even say it's biological issue as much as social.

My anthropology 101 class taught that 'sex' (the physical attributes) and 'gender' (the socially assigned binary role) are NOT always the same thing.

This isn't a new idea. Many cultures have operated under the assumption that manliness or womanliness are separate from what you got going on in your pants.

Why wouldn't the Qunari have a sophisticated conscept of gender identity? The Qun is about EMBRACING your ROLE. If the Tamassarans decided that a persons role was a man, (regardless of sex which the Qunari don't see as much of a big deal anyway) would they care that that man would need to bind their chest to fit this role?

I don't see this as a 'change in the Qun.' Could it be we are finally understanding more about it?

I've heard this for a long time, but apparently not.

http://sexnotgender....does-not-exist/

http://bbrightstar.t...end-to-function

 

In retrospect it makes perfect sense that it would eventually clash with feminism, since claiming that wanting to wear makeup and a skirt and just be "girly" makes you a woman deep down is implying gender roles. To feminists, there is no such thing is manliness and womanliness and they are all societal constructs.

 

But hey maybe they'll come up with a new study saying that women's love of shoes and men's love of cars is completely biological.

[KaiserShep]

You bas be crazy.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah. The whole look of the Qunari is a far more obvious change.

 

Exactly. XD I don't know why that example completely slipped my mind.

[Putok]

The IRL causes of transexualism are irrelevant in a fantasy world that operates in a fundamentally different way. In real life, you don't travel to an alternate plane of reality when you dream.

 

That said, describing opinion blogs as weak sources in establishing fact would be a colossal understatement. Physically measurable abnormalities in the brains of transsexuals whereby certain structures are consistent with the wrong sex, especially when viewed in concert with the many failures to raise children as the opposite gender following accidental genital mutilation at birth suggests that a psychological explanation for transexualism is extremely unlikely.

[Bod02]

The IRL causes of transexualism are irrelevant in a fantasy world that operates in a fundamentally different way. In real life, you don't travel to an alternate plane of reality when you dream.

 

That said, describing opinion blogs as weak sources in establishing fact would be a colossal understatement. Physically measurable abnormalities in the brains of transsexuals whereby certain structures are consistent with the wrong sex, especially when viewed in concert with the many failures to raise children as the opposite gender following accidental genital mutilation at birth suggests that a psychological explanation for transexualism is extremely unlikely.

I guess.. I'm mainly responding to the quote. That said it's kinda obvious the whole inclusion of the thing we're debating is for IRL social justice causes.

 

Both links have citations. But it's not really a thing I've studied so I'm not qualified to argue personally

[Shimmer_Gloom]

That class was talking about gender as identity and choice. The Qun is based on identity from nature. if nature gave you man parts then it was because nature assigned you the role man. If nature gave you lady parts, then nature assigned you the role of lady.

If the Qun didn't care about sex only gender identity, then Sten would never have been surprised to see a female Grey Warden fighting. He would have simply thought she thought she thought she was a man and would have never brought it up. Sten does bring it up because under the Qun, identity is based on genitals, not gender identification.

But isn't BEHAVIOR part of NATURE? Why do we infer that the Qun even sees genatals as important to being a man?

"And if nature gave you" why does the Qun care what 'parts' you have? How does that effect your role in the Qun? Your role in the Qun is a religious/socially ascribed doctrine. Where do gentitals play in that AT ALL? If you were seen as needing to have children, you damn well better have the ability to produce them with your body.

Now, if the Tamasseran decide you are a man and must be a soldier do you think they take your genitals into account? Or do you think your ability to kill and live with other men is more important?

These aren't totally rhetorical questions I'm open to a back and forth here.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

I guess.. I'm mainly responding to the quote. That said it's kinda obvious the whole inclusion of the thing we're debating is for IRL social justice causes.

Both links have citations. But it's not really a thing I've studied so I'm not qualified to argue personally

Where did we start talking about social justice? I thought we were talking about a fantasy world?

[Bod02]

But isn't BEHAVIOR part of NATURE? Why do we infer that the Qun even sees genatals as important to being a man?

"And if nature gave you" why does the Qun care what 'parts' you have? How does that effect your role in the Qun? Your role in the Qun is a religious/socially ascribed doctrine. Where do gentitals play in that AT ALL? If you were seen as needing to have children, you damn well better have the ability to produce them with your body.

Now, if the Tamasseran decide you are a man and must be a soldier do you think they take your genitals into account? Or do you think your ability to kill and live with other men is more important?

These aren't totally rhetorical questions I'm open to a back and forth here.

Pretty sure it was a figure of speech. Castrated men are still men (mostly).

 

Where did we start talking about social justice? I thought we were talking about a fantasy world?

You weren't. You were talking about real life, and then comparing it to the game.

 

I never said you talked about social justice. But bioware obviously did this to be more liberal.

[atamajakki]

At this point, the discussion is meaningless. Deliberately misgendering a trans character and throwing around incredibly transphobic definitions of man/woman are wretched. I'm not seeing angry nerds; I'm seeing bigots. Jesus.

[atamajakki]

There is a divide between sex and gender. The Qunari operate based on gender. I really don't the difficulty here.

[WarBaby2]

In retrospect it makes perfect sense that it would eventually clash with feminism, since claiming that wanting to wear makeup and a skirt and just be "girly" makes you a woman deep down is implying gender roles. To feminists, there is no such thing is manliness and womanliness and they are all societal constructs.

Which is by far one of their weakest arguments, to be honest... the current, societal iteration of menliness/womenliness may be social "constructs", but that doesn't mean that they aren't rooted in something much more basic/biological. Throughout evolution there always have ben distinctive, dividing factors in both genders in humans and animals alike... it's a necessety for gender dimorph species to even function. The feminist unwillingness to accept that/rationalize it away is just the infantile attempt to make humans more then we really are: Memmals... another thing they have in common with religious idiologs.

 

So, yea, the Qun... yes, they deffinatly changed it quite a bit. According to Sten, gender sagregation is quite strict under the Qun, and people that don't conform are simply re-adjucated (brainwashed) to fill their role = extreme communism.What a person "self identifies" has not meaning or relevance there.

 

Also, what I found quite grating, to be honest: The options the inquisitor was given to ask about Khrem, and the - very preachy - responses Bull would give to them... not very well handled, all in all.

[atamajakki]

Sten is confused because a self-proclaimed female (the Warden) is doing a task (fighting) that would make her male. The dialogue with Krem implies that a self-proclaimed male can do male things. I can see a dmab Qunari being allowed to work "female" jobs if they showed skill and identified as female, and vice versa. Is that really so confusing? The Qunari tie genders to jobs, and genders are non-biological.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Sten is confused because a self-proclaimed female (the Warden) is doing a task (fighting) that would make her male. The dialogue with Krem implies that a self-proclaimed male can do male things. I can see a dmab Qunari being allowed to work "female" jobs if they showed skill and identified as female, and vice versa. Is that really so confusing? The Qunari tie genders to jobs, and genders are non-biological.

Exactly.