At this point, the discussion is meaningless. Deliberately misgendering a trans character and throwing around incredibly transphobic definitions of man/woman are wretched. I'm not seeing angry nerds; I'm seeing bigots. Jesus.
At this point, the discussion is meaningless. Deliberately misgendering a trans character and throwing around incredibly transphobic definitions of man/woman are wretched. I'm not seeing angry nerds; I'm seeing bigots. Jesus.
Dismissing what the discussion for something that it isn't is horribly foolhardy of you. And then following up on name calling people in here for having a valid point, is also very awful.
There is a divide between sex and gender. The Qunari operate based on gender. I really don't the difficulty here.
The Qunari also put people into rolls at birth, dismissing any idea for gender to actually form in the child.
Sten is confused because a self-proclaimed female (the Warden) is doing a task (fighting) that would make her male. The dialogue with Krem implies that a self-proclaimed male can do male things. I can see a dmab Qunari being allowed to work "female" jobs if they showed skill and identified as female, and vice versa. Is that really so confusing? The Qunari tie genders to jobs, and genders are non-biological.
Going back 20 pages of arguing in circles, Sten's EXACT QUOTE is questioning is "A person is born. Qunari, or elf, or human, or dwarf. The size of his hand. Wither he's clever or foolish. The land he comes from, the color of his hair. These are things beyond his control. We do not choose, we simply are." and the follow up question of 'but a person can choose to be more' is met with "Can they?" meaning it was never met in qunari society.
I answer with a rhetorical question: if a dfab individual demonstrated skill in warfare and identified as male, what precisely would the Qun have to object to that? That is man acting as a man should.
they would give them a dosage of Qamek for acting so out of their standards.
Here's a better question: Do the Qunari actually have a difference between gender and sex in their society? With lines like "We do not choose, we simply are." It seems like they don't.
.I answer with a rhetorical question: if a dfab individual demonstrated skill in warfare and identified as male, what precisely would the Qun have to object to that? That is man acting as a man should.
I answer with a rhetorical question: if a dfab individual demonstrated skill in warfare and identified as male, what precisely would the Qun have to object to that? That is man acting as a man should.
Good question... for an individual born and raised under the Qun, that would not happen, since identity is, first and foremost defined by biology - males are rasied to be warriors, females are raised to be workers/priestesses. For a person converted to the Qun, I don't think they would care much.
Sten is confused because a self-proclaimed female (the Warden) is doing a task (fighting) that would make her male. The dialogue with Krem implies that a self-proclaimed male can do male things. I can see a dmab Qunari being allowed to work "female" jobs if they showed skill and identified as female, and vice versa. Is that really so confusing? The Qunari tie genders to jobs, and genders are non-biological.
The woman warden at no point "proclaims" to be female. The man and woman warden are interchangeable in almost all respects.
At this point, the discussion is meaningless. Deliberately misgendering a trans character and throwing around incredibly transphobic definitions of man/woman are wretched. I'm not seeing angry nerds; I'm seeing bigots. Jesus.
The discussion is meaningless not because we're transphobic, the discussion is meaningless because people just see what they want to see and accuse everything else as being "incredibly transphobic".
Give up joe
I feel like my question of 'do the qunari even look at gender and sex as different?' is one of merit with sten's questioning.
they would give them a dosage of Qamek for acting so out of their standards.
Here's a better question: Do the Qunari actually have a difference between gender and sex in their society? With lines like "We do not choose, we simply are." It seems like they don't.
This is indeed one of the few things of merit said. I would say based on Sten (who freely admits to not being able to explain the Qun well) that Qunari may not actually have the vocabulary to seperate Gender and sex.I feel like my question of 'do the qunari even look at gender and sex as different?' is one of merit with sten's questioning.
Dismissing what the discussion for something that it isn't is horribly foolhardy of you. And then following up on name calling people in here for having a valid point, is also very awful.
The Qunari also put people into rolls at birth, dismissing any idea for gender to actually form in the child.
Going back 20 pages of arguing in circles, Sten's EXACT QUOTE is questioning is "A person is born. Qunari, or elf, or human, or dwarf. The size of his hand. Wither he's clever or foolish. The land he comes from, the color of his hair. These are things beyond his control. We do not choose, we simply are." and the follow up question of 'but a person can choose to be more' is met with "Can they?" meaning it was never met in qunari society.
Exactly. Bioware heavily changed the very foundations of the Qun, predetermination, when they made DA:I. And the change really makes no sense and doesn't improve the game in any way. If anything, it makes the game less. The hard rigidity of the Qun was one of the things that made it so interesting.
Qunari don't care about gender identity, they care about sex. Allowing someone to choose their gender is no different from allowing someone to choose their job. Allowing someone to change their gender (as choosing one's gender involves the process of changing one's gender) is the same as allowing someone to change their job. The Qun would say that if someone was meant to be a man, they would have been born with a penis. Since they don't have a penis, then they can't be a man.
Did Krem 'choose' to be as he is? (This part is indeed rhetorical As I don't think there is much 'choice' in being Trans to say otherwise is insulting)
Born under the Qun, he wouldn't, he never would have questioned what he is since he would have been raised to not care. The Qun have no concpet of gender identity, just purpous.
SInce he was born in human society, where gender identification is a factor, he went the "normal" way of growing into his identity as a man... which, in itsself, wasn't even really problem in Tevinter, mind you, it just became a problem when his mother tried to force him to "be female" for his families sake.
For me it's rather simple-DA:O Sten is Qunari, everybody else, the horned ones, are fake Qunari.
And Bioware should stop shooting itself in the foot every time it tried pull stuff out of their arses with Qun. It's gotten to the point where theyt, themselves are confused over it.
But isn't BEHAVIOR part of NATURE? Why do we infer that the Qun even sees genatals as important to being a man?
"And if nature gave you" why does the Qun care what 'parts' you have? How does that effect your role in the Qun? Your role in the Qun is a religious/socially ascribed doctrine. Where do gentitals play in that AT ALL? If you were seen as needing to have children, you damn well better have the ability to produce them with your body.
Now, if the Tamasseran decide you are a man and must be a soldier do you think they take your genitals into account? Or do you think your ability to kill and live with other men is more important?
These aren't totally rhetorical questions I'm open to a back and forth here.
Sten does speak to this. He says that nature assigns the role and even if we think that we should be something different, that is only our mind/soul being out of alignment with what nature intended. If we merely followed the role that nature intended, even if we think it's a role that we can't be happy with, we will actually find happiness by following the role assigned to us by nature as following this role will cause our mind/soul to return to its true alignment.
Thus a woman who thinks she is a man is simply suffering from having her mind being out of alignment with nature, but if she keeps up with being a woman, eventually her mind will return to its proper alignment and she will be happy with her role as a woman.
Not saying I really accept this, but that's Sten's explanation.
Of course one could also argue that sometimes nature screws up. I highly doubt that nature intended people to die from cancer, or even for cancer to exist, but it does. So the nature that the Qunari use to assign roles to each other isn't really perfect enough to actually assign the proper roles.
Define 'is' and 'are.'
Iron Bull (a real bonfide Qunari) says Krem is a man. He says the Qun would see Krem as a man. Krem sees himself a man. Why wouldn't the Qunari priests also see Krem as a man?
Did Krem 'choose' to be as he is? (This part is indeed rhetorical As I don't think there is much 'choice' in being Trans to say otherwise is insulting)
Iron bull also betrays the Qun gladly in 'Demands of the Qun' seeing as he's a lot happier with the chargers surviving than having a qunari alliance.
Iron bull obviously goes native, something that usually happens with spies at times, with his time among human society. Hell, he says so himself, saying he had troubles following the Qun prior to being a spy or saying he uses it as guidance, not rules.
The Qunari also put people into rolls at birth, dismissing any idea for gender to actually form in the child.
We also assign roles to people from birth. At least most societies and parents do, and many of these roles are based on the physical sex of the child. How they should behave, what they should like, what they should want to work with. Etc.
The Qunari might assign roles at birth, but they also seem to believe heavily in re-education/indoctrination. If they have realised that there is a "condition" where someone is ideally better suited to a gender not usually associated with their sex, and that this simply cannot be changed, why would they have a problem reassigning this person? It would be a rather unique situation, after all, since people being trans isn't exceedingly common. It might be such an unusual exception that Sten simply did not see the point of ever bringing it up.
This does not change the Qun, it merely shows that we did not know how it works in every single situation imaginable.
What does 'betraying the Qun' have to do wih his reliablity in describing the Qun. Do we have to discount everything Sten said because he lost his sword? Sten literally lost his 'soul' his physical representation of his role.
Hell. Even the Arishok strayed from his role in attacking Kriwall. It seems Qunari losing their way is a theme of Dragon Age.
Do we abandond everything we know about the Qun because these characters are flawed? I think not.
Sten still follows the qun, continuing his mission but never returns unless he finds his sword.
The Arishok was defending Qun converts from being taken in by a power he did not recognize
Iron bull prefers leaving his Qunari brothers to die rather than let the people who don't serve the qun die.
Each of the first two defend their qunari brothers to death. Iron bull would prefer qunari die rather than his friends, or natives. He went native. He shows no loyalty to the Qun, to defend his qunari brothers. Loyalty to the qun is demanded, not asked, and he didn't meet its demands.
See the disconnect here is that people do not assign their own role. The Qun does. BUT the Qun is interpreted by the Priests. A good Tamasseran should be able to identify a trans person fairly early. It's a huge part of this perosn's identity.Sten does speak to this. He says that nature assigns the role and even if we think that we should be something different, that is only our mind/soul being out of alignment with what nature intended. If we merely followed the role that nature intended, even if we think it's a role that we can't be happy with, we will actually find happiness by following the role assigned to us by nature as following this role will cause our mind/soul to return to its true alignment.
Thus a woman who thinks she is a man is simply suffering from having her mind being out of alignment with nature, but if she keeps up with being a woman, eventually her mind will return to its proper alignment and she will be happy with her role as a woman.
Not saying I really accept this, but that's Sten's explanation.
Of course one could also argue that sometimes nature screws up. I highly doubt that nature intended people to die from cancer, or even for cancer to exist, but it does. So the nature that the Qunari use to assign roles to each other isn't really perfect enough to actually assign the proper roles.
Sten still follows the qun, continuing his mission but never returns unless he finds his sword.
The Arishok was defending Qun converts from being taken in by a power he did not recognize
Iron bull prefers leaving his Qunari brothers to die rather than let the people who don't serve the qun die.
Each of the first two defend their qunari brothers to death. Iron bull would prefer qunari die rather than his friends, or natives. He went native. He shows no loyalty to the Qun, to defend his qunari brothers. Loyalty to the qun is demanded, not asked, and he didn't meet its demands.
We also assign roles to people from birth. At least most societies and parents do, and many of these roles are based on the physical sex of the child. How they should behave, what they should like, what they should want to work with. Etc.
The Qunari might assign roles at birth, but they also seem to believe heavily in re-education/indoctrination. If they have realised that there is a "condition" where someone is ideally better suited to a gender not usually associated with their sex, and that this simply cannot be changed, why would they have a problem reassigning this person? It would be a rather unique situation, after all, since people being trans isn't exceedingly common. It might be such an unusual exception that Sten simply did not see the point of ever bringing it up.
This does not change the Qun, it merely shows that we did not know how it works in every single situation imaginable.
Oh, but we do, bull says it himself: Deviating from assigned roles is not accepted under the Qun. If you do, you either get readjucated or go Tal Vashoth. If anything, a priestess that wanted to fight as the males do would be taken to readjucation until this tendencies would go away, not the other way around. It's not about individual identity, but about role in society. You got your role, it's pretty much over. Now, I know Bull was picked to be a spy based on aptitude, but would he not already have been with the warriors, nobody would have cared about his skills.
As I said earlier, though, all of that only applies to Qunai born...
We also assign roles to people from birth. At least most societies and parents do, and many of these roles are based on the physical sex of the child. How they should behave, what they should like, what they should want to work with. Etc.
The Qunari might assign roles at birth, but they also seem to believe heavily in re-education/indoctrination. If they have realised that there is a "condition" where someone is ideally better suited to a gender not usually associated with their sex, and that this simply cannot be changed, why would they have a problem reassigning this person? It would be a rather unique situation, after all, since people being trans isn't exceedingly common. It might be such an unusual exception that Sten simply did not see the point of ever bringing it up.
This does not change the Qun, it merely shows that we did not know how it works in every single situation imaginable.
Okay. And this makes Bull unable to describe the Qun to us how?
Because he would rather become tal-vashoth then let his men die. He'd rather turn against the Qun then obey its demands. Would you trust an athiest to discuss christianity to you from a perspective that's from a full believing christian standpoint.
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