646 réponses à ce sujet

[atamajakki]

Krem was inclusive. Iron Bull accepting Krem as a man was inclusive.
 
The Qun is not supposed to be a Utopian Society. Inclusivness doesn't mean every character in a work of fiction has to react overwhelmingly positive about the thing you are trying to increase awareness about. Thedas wasn't supposed to be a wish-fulfillment setting of Perfect Social Justice. It's a DARK FANTASY world, full of violence, racism, and bigotry. If inclusiveness NECESSITATES puppies-and-rainbows unilateral positvity even from the "Bad Guys", then the setting turns into something else.
 
And yes, I get that some people were always here for the LGBT content, and aren't actually interested in the Dark Fantasy. That's fair, I guess.

Are you so dense that you think "this faction is blatantly evil" is good writing but "every faction has its own quirks" is not? Woe is you, deprived of a Qunari that you can view as a bunch of stoic military machines with less depth than a puddle. Heavens, how could a civilization be anything other than a blood-oiled hellish dystopia?

Truly you suffer so at the hands of these pesky feminists.

[atamajakki]

Ding ding ding!  I enjoyed the Qun in DAO ... in DA2, I went through various stages of "lol wut?" ... and now in DAI I've become convinced the Qun is the Mary Sue of religion/philosophy/government.

Calm down. The Qun has never been a dystopia.

It's a life largely lacking in individual choice; you do your role, you're unlikely to have upward social mobility of any sort, and you can never have a family. Individual accomplishment isn't acknowledged. Those could all be written off as "bad" pretty easily.

But the Qun's other dominant trait has always been inclusiveness. Anyone can convert and become worthy through work; that's been a major theme since Origins. /Everyone/ has a place in the Qun. And then there's that whole "there's no racism and you're actually guaranteed food and shelter."

[AzureAardvark]

Calm down. The Qun has never been a dystopia.

It's a life largely lacking in individual choice; you do your role, you're unlikely to have upward social mobility of any sort, and you can never have a family. Individual accomplishment isn't acknowledged. Those could all be written off as "bad" pretty easily.

 

You're describing a fairly popular flavor of dystopia.

[PorcelynDoll]

I got the impression the Qun is going to change or possible a Hero in a later game or expansion is going to have an opportunity to change it when Gatt said "If I leave I'll never change the parts of the Qun I don't like." I kind of think Krem is just the tip of the iceberg.

[Super Drone]

Are you so dense that you think "this faction is blatantly evil" is good writing but "every faction has its own quirks" is not? Woe is you, deprived of a Qunari that you can view as a bunch of stoic military machines with less depth than a puddle. Heavens, how could a civilization be anything other than a blood-oiled hellish dystopia?

Truly you suffer so at the hands of these pesky feminists.

 

That's my point. It's still a blood-oiled, hellish dystopia. You still can't choose you way of life, who you have sex with, where you live or what you do. 

 

Only now it's a blood-oiled hellish dystopia that's strangely sensitive to a single Real-World social issue.  (See: Doctor Doom crying over the WTC bombing).

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Krem was inclusive. Iron Bull accepting Krem as a man was inclusive.

The Qun is not supposed to be a Utopian Society. Inclusivness doesn't mean every character in a work of fiction has to react overwhelmingly positive about the thing you are trying to increase awareness about. Thedas wasn't supposed to be a wish-fulfillment setting of Perfect Social Justice. It's a DARK FANTASY world, full of violence, racism, and bigotry. If inclusiveness NECESSITATES puppies-and-rainbows unilateral positvity even from the "Bad Guys", then the setting turns into something else.

And yes, I get that some people were always here for the LGBT content, and aren't actually interested in the Dark Fantasy. That's fair, I guess.

Iron Bull lost his EYE defending Krem. He loves this man like a brother. And you can force him to watch him die for a military alliance.

Dorian's father was going BRAINWASH him with blood magic to 'ungay' him. It's the Tevinter version of 'pray the gay away!'

You can also let the Empress of Orlais get murdered for political expediency.

And this is a game of 'puppies and rainbows?!' This game is dark as heck. And you can ride an undead horse with a sword through it head so it's also metal as ****.

What game are YOU playing?!

[Shimmer_Gloom]

That's my point. It's still a blood-oiled, hellish dystopia. You still can't choose you way of life, who you have sex with, where you live or what you do.

Only now it's a blood-oiled hellish dystopia that's strangely sensitive to a single Real-World social issue. (See: Doctor Doom crying over the WTC bombing).

The Qunari are literally fighting slave owners and have been for a long time. Since DAO the Qun has been shown as tolerant of other races. Is racism not a 'Real World issue?' Been paying attention to the news lately? Remember those Elves who became Vidithari in DA2?

The Qun has ALWAYS been accepting of who you are. That's the ENTIRE point.

If I were to guess, I think the Qun was created precisely because it gives us an interestig way to talk about real world issues like race and gender and has been since DAO.

Anybody remember Sten saying 'Elves are a race of people who excell at poverty?' Remember the 'are you a woman' bit?

If you want real world issues out of your games you shouldn't have played DAO.

[AzureAardvark]

The Qun has ALWAYS been accepting of who you are.

 

Which is why reeducation totally isn't a thing under the Qun.

[Lumix19]

That's my point. It's still a blood-oiled, hellish dystopia. You still can't choose you way of life, who you have sex with, where you live or what you do.

Only now it's a blood-oiled hellish dystopia that's strangely sensitive to a single Real-World social issue. (See: Doctor Doom crying over the WTC bombing).

I don't see it like that at all. More like a utopia with a very high cost which (in fiction) is often free will/the necessity of totalitarianism. Just listen to the way Tallis talks about it, she paints it as a relatively compassionate system compared to most of Thedas.

Which is why reeducation totally isn't a thing under the Qun.

Reeducation is meant to correct people who reject the Qun or their place in it. By refusing to be what you are assigned you are in essence rejecting who you are, your purpose and your nature and are thus upsetting the balance of the individual as well as all of society.

[atamajakki]

Inclusiveness has literally always been a defining trait of the Qun. Kossith, human, elf, Fex, whatever you were, you had a place in the Qun. It's a very gendered society, yet nothing points to them viewing sex as related to gender, and furthermore; why wouldn't the gender-heavy society be the place to deal with gender politics in Dragon Age?

That's my point. It's still a blood-oiled, hellish dystopia. You still can't choose you way of life, who you have sex with, where you live or what you do. 
 
Only now it's a blood-oiled hellish dystopia that's strangely sensitive to a single Real-World social issue.  (See: Doctor Doom crying over the WTC bombing).

To your values, sure. But to an alienage elf who wants free of crippling poverty and constant racial hatred? To the Tevinter slave who wants the power to choose his fate? The Qun is infinitely better than their current existence. Guaranteed food, guaranteed work... That's worth a lot more than you think.

[Super Drone]

I don't see it like that at all. More like a utopia with a very high cost which (in fiction) is often free will/the necessity of totalitarianism. Just listen to the way Tallis talks about it, she paints it as a relatively compassionate system compared to most of Thedas.

 

Mind-erasing poison that turns you into a zombie that you use on people commit thought-crime. No amount of compassion justifies that.

[AzureAardvark]

Mind-erasing poison that turns you into a zombie that you use on people commit thought-crime. No amount of compassion justifies that.

 

You'd be programmed not to notice.

 

with apologies to Douglas Adams

[atamajakki]

Mind-erasing poison that turns you into a zombie that you use on people commit thought-crime. No amount of compassion justifies that.

The Qunari are evil because of qamek. Okay.

Making mages Tranquil is the same damn thing, so I guess all of southern Thedas is evil, too. And Tevinter has actual regular slaves. Orzammar has the dusters, who are potentially worse than slaves.

Who do you think of as /good/, exactly? Dragon Age is a morally grey setting by design.

[Lumix19]

Mind-erasing poison that turns you into a zombie that you use on people commit thought-crime. No amount of compassion justifies that.

Hardly thought crime, the Qunari can't read your thoughts after all. Besides qamek is only used on those who are completely unable to be rehabilitated. What's the alternative? Let them go? Life in prison? Qamek is pretty much death except the Qun still get the body for labour. A necessary evil.

[AzureAardvark]

Hardly thought crime, the Qunari can't read your thoughts after all.

 

That's what secret police are for, traditionally.

[Lumix19]

That's what secret police are for, traditionally.

Indeed but the Qun is not all-seeing, Solas even tells you of the Qunari baker who baked sugar into her bread as a little rebellion against the Qun. Thought crime is too insubstantial and widespread to manage anyway.

[Super Drone]

The Qunari are evil because of qamek. Okay.

Making mages Tranquil is the same damn thing, so I guess all of southern Thedas is evil, too. And Tevinter has actual regular slaves. Orzammar has the dusters, who are potentially worse than slaves.

Who do you think of as /good/, exactly? Dragon Age is a morally grey setting by design.

 

No one is good. All societies have flaws. That doesn't justify Qamek. Nothing does.

[AzureAardvark]

Thought crime is too insubstantial and widespread to manage anyway.

 

And yet the Qun has secret police, reeducation, and (apparently) zombification if all else fails.

[Super Drone]

Indeed but the Qun is not all-seeing, Solas even tells you of the Qunari baker who baked sugar into her bread as a little rebellion against the Qun. Thought crime is too insubstantial and widespread to manage anyway.

 

 

You do know that Thought-Crime has nothing to do with mind-reading, right? It's from 1984. The Goverment of Oceania didn't have the ability to read minds either.

 

Didn't mean they didn't kill or lobotomize people they thought were guilty of thought-crime.

[atamajakki]

No one is good. All societies have flaws. That doesn't justify Qamek. Nothing does.

The Rite of Tranquility is the exact same thing.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

No Qunari has painted the Qun as a utopia. It is simply 'the nation that must be.' Sten even seems to show reluctance to fight you when the Qunari eventually return to Ferelden to conquer it.

Nearly every Qunari character we've met has been well aware of darker aspects of a society that has 'total certainty.'

But nobody would join if it didn't have some upsides. One of the few upsides is inclusivism. Everyone has a place in Qun. That's kinda cool.

But the Qun is far from a wacky Progressive utopia. Are you a man who wants to be a soldier? Or a woman who want a to be a priest? Great! Welcome aboard! Want to be a man who teaches? Well, tough luck. You're a soldier now. Don't like it? Visit the re-educators!

The Qun isn't a distopia or a utopia or anything other than what it appears-- a theocratic empire that MUST wrangle a diverse set of peoples and nations and that values the empire and comunity over individuals.

It's also unlike any society that exists in the real world. Bull's acceptance of Krem doesn't somehow change this.

[Lumix19]

And yet the Qun has secret police, reeducation, and (apparently) zombification if all else fails.

Ben-Hassrath are more like city guard then secret police I believe. Reeducation and qamek are necessary evils under the Qun. It's part of the exchanging free will for utopia deal.

You do know that Thought-Crime has nothing to do with mind-reading, right? It's from 1984. The Goverment of Oceania didn't have the ability to read minds either.
 
Didn't mean they didn't kill or lobotomize people they thought were guilty of thought-crime.

I am aware. But Oceania had already established thought crime and the secret police. But can you imagine having to introduce such a concept to any society? There is a reason the Qunari allow sex with Tammasrans and that's that they are relatively practical. Besides 1984 has an atmosphere of fear because of thought crime that doesn't seem to be a part of Qunari society.

[AzureAardvark]

Ben-Hassrath are more like city guard then secret police I believe. Reeducation and qamek are necessary evils under the Qun. It's part of the exchanging free will for utopia deal.

 

So, "happy camps" then?

 

I have less issue with the Qun as the thing it started out as, and more with the "softening" of the qun over time.

[Lumix19]

So, "happy camps" then?
 
I have less issue with the Qun as the thing it started out as, and more with the "softening" of the qun over time.

I hardly think it's being "softened" just that we're learning more about it. Nothing had been changed as far as I'm aware.

[atamajakki]

So, "happy camps" then?
 
I have less issue with the Qun as the thing it started out as, and more with the "softening" of the qun over time.

How has it softened, exactly?