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[Shimmer_Gloom]

"Softening the Qun," just sounds like "I don't don't like complexity."

Sten introduced us to the Qunari. But we've since met half a dozen more Qunari after him. Did you know Sten was ALWAYS supposed to have horns but they nixed the idea because they couldn't figure out how to make him wear a hat?

Is the fact that Qunari have horns now a better reproduction of Bioware's vision for how Qunari look? Or should they all look exactly like In DAO? Basically just Sten in different sets of armor.

What I'm saying is each Qunari we've met has given is new information about the Qun. Is that 'softening' or are we finally just starting to what the Qun is finally?

I'd bet the latter.

[Super Drone]

The Rite of Tranquility is the exact same thing.

 

The Rite of Tranquility was a misguided attempt to give Mages an option other than death when it was determined that they were a grave danger to others. It also was supposed to be voluntary, essentially the Mages choice other than The Harrowing (whether or not corrupt Templars were sticking to that is another matter).

 

Even at that, it's awful and there's actually very few people who aren't Templar zealots who aren't basically of the opinion that it's use needs to be discontinued.

 

Qamek is used involuntarily against people who can't be brainwashed into doing what the Tamassrans want them to do.

 

So no, I don't think they are exactly the same thing.

[AzureAardvark]

What I'm saying is each Qunari we've met has given is new information about the Qun. Is that 'softening' or are we finally just starting to what the Qun is finally?

I'd bet the latter.

 

You say "new information", I say "retcon".  /shrug

 

"Softening the Qun," just sounds like "I don't don't like complexity."

 

 

[atamajakki]

You say "new information", I say "retcon".  /shrug
 
"Softening the Qun," just sounds like "I don't don't like complexity."
 
 

You point to where there's a definite retcon of Qunari gender politics and I'll stop thinking this thread is a transphobic trash heap. The idea of aqun-athlok doesn't invalidate anything Sten told us.

[AzureAardvark]

You point to where there's a definite retcon of Qunari gender politics and I'll stop thinking this thread is a transphobic trash heap.

 

I sincerely doubt that.

[atamajakki]

I sincerely doubt that.

Sounds an awful lot like you have no evidence for your claim and just want to keep complaining about a retcon that doesn't exist.

[AzureAardvark]

Sounds an awful lot like you have no evidence for your claim and just want to keep complaining about a retcon that doesn't exist.

 

Well, there's the entire Sten vs Tallis dialogues, but you'll dismiss that as "Sten was just a grunt."

 

Sten describes a rigid structure in which your life path is decided for you; Tallis keeps implying it's somehow more flexible, without elaboration.

 

Come to think of it, hasn't everything Sten said been dismissed as "he was just a grunt"?

[Shimmer_Gloom]

You say "new information", I say "retcon". /shrug

The reason for Sten not having horns (he's a special Qunari) is a clear retcon. But it was a retcon to address why he doesn't fit Bioware's vision for what the Qunari look like.

Let's say that the term Aqun Athlock is a retcon too (I don't think it is but bear with me). It was obviously made to better illustrate something about the Qunari.

Why is the Qun 'the dozen or so sentences Sten says about his home in DAO' and not 'whatever Bioware has in it's bible on the Qun plus whatever the writers decide to add to it?'

[atamajakki]

Well, there's the entire Sten vs Tallis dialogues, but you'll dismiss that as "Sten was just a grunt."
 
Sten describes a rigid structure in which your life path is decided for you; Tallis keeps implying it's somehow more flexible, without elaboration.
 
Come to think of it, hasn't everything Sten said been dismissed as "he was just a grunt"?

The primary foundation for why I think aqun-athlok isn't a retcon is because Sten's gender confusion arises when a female insists on being both female and a warrior, which does not exist under the Qun. Trans individuals would fit the Qun just fine, so long as they performed the task for their gender; this is why Krem (afab but identifies as male) who is a warrior (a male role) would be male in the eyes of Qunari, because there's no gender/role dissonance.

There. No slander on Sten whatsoever.

[AzureAardvark]

Why is the Qun 'the dozen or so sentences Sten says about his home in DAO' and not 'whatever Bioware has in it's bible on the Qun plus whatever the writers decide to add to it?'

 

That's ... kinda the definition of recon, isn't it?

Based on a couple of quotes from Gaider, canon isn't something they're going to be terribly strong at enforcing.

 

Sten paints the portrait of a strict authoritarian theocracy, with a strong expansionist bent and strict roles decided by the various ruling entities (who are apparently infallible, a fact that annoys me more than anything else).  Worked for me; sounded kinda bad ass.  Convert or perish, etc etc.

 

DA2 rolls in and we've got various and sundry saying, fairly vaguely, "the qun isn't like that!" and start tacking on some fairly forced (at least, that's how it seemed to me) "Why the qun is better" elements.

 

DAI does much the same.

[Super Drone]

Why is the Qun 'the dozen or so sentences Sten says about his home in DAO' and not 'whatever Bioware has in it's bible on the Qun plus whatever the writers decide to add to it?'

 

It's not. The Qun is, in fact, whatever the writers want it to be, but it's fiction. People aren't disputing that, they are disputing whether or not it's been retconned from game to game, whether the notion that they are both a sexist society and accepting of transgender individiduals simultaneuously is one of those retcons, and wheither or not it is an attempt to white-wash or "soften" the Qun.

 

The writers can do what the want. All we can do is decide whether what they did is dumb or not.

[atamajakki]

That's ... kinda the definition of recon, isn't it?
Based on a couple of quotes from Gaider, canon isn't something they're going to be terribly strong at enforcing.
 
Sten paints the portrait of a strict authoritarian theocracy, with a strong expansionist bent and strict roles decided by the various ruling entities (who are apparently infallible, a fact that annoys me more than anything else).  Worked for me; sounded kinda bad ass.  Convert or perish.
 
DA2 rolls in and we've got various and sundry saying, fairly vaguely, "the qun isn't like that!".
 
DAI says much the same.

Doesn't Sten have dialogue where he says it feels wrong for him to speak of the Qun beyond the Antaam, as it's all he knows? Stands to figure this look a lot more rigid to a soldier in the military.

[AzureAardvark]

Doesn't Sten have dialogue where he says it feels wrong for him to speak of the Qun beyond the Antaam, as it's all he knows? Stands to figure this look a lot more rigid to a soldier in the military.

 

So ... Sten is a stupid grunt?

[atamajakki]

So ... Sten is a stupid grunt?

Nope. Sten is an individual with a specific view of the Qun, an inherent bias that he admits to. Which doesn't mean that he's wrong, bur rather that what he says shouldn't be taken as gospel. He's not going have the objective truth of Qunari society.

I'm not seeing retcons anywhere,

[AzureAardvark]

It's not. The Qun is, in fact, whatever the writers want it to be, but it's fiction. People aren't disputing that, they are disputing whether or not it's been retconned from game to game, whether the notion that they are both a sexist society and accepting of transgender individiduals simultaneuously is one of those retcons, and wheither or not it is an attempt to white-wash or "soften" the Qun.

 

The writers can do what the want. All we can do is decide whether what they did is dumb or not.

 

Actually, I'm mostly talking about how the whole "rigid roles" has been whitewashed over time.

 

There seems to be a "you can be whomever you want in the qun!" theme going on, when if we actually stare the tenets it's more like, "yes, everyone can join; no, you can't be whomever you want to be, you'll go and do what we bloody well tell you or you can visit the happy camps".

 

The qun is inclusive if you only look at "anyone can join", but everyone (including BW's writers) seems to ignore the follow-on "...but you damn well better do what you're told."

[Shimmer_Gloom]

That's ... kinda the definition of recon, isn't it?
Based on a couple of quotes from Gaider, canon isn't something they're going to be terribly strong at enforcing.

Sten paints the portrait of a strict authoritarian theocracy, with a strong expansionist bent and strict roles decided by the various ruling entities (who are apparently infallible, a fact that annoys me more than anything else). Worked for me; sounded kinda bad ass. Convert or perish, etc etc.

DA2 rolls in and we've got various and sundry saying, fairly vaguely, "the qun isn't like that!".

DAI says much the same.

Except what you've described seems to be EXACTLY what they still are, for one. Strict Authoritarian Theocracy fits the Qun to a T. But it's also always been more complex than that.

Also, why do YOU get to define what is canon. Why doesn't Bioware get to define what is cannon. Why isn't the Qun whatever Bioware says it is.

Also, I agree that Sten's 'are you a woman' talk lines up with this conversation a 100%. Sten OBVIOUSLY knows what breasts are. Sten is a VERY sophisticated person (if a little naive to life outside the Qun). The very fact that he is confused about a female Warden's gender impies that gender and sex are seperate in Qunari society.

I'd say don't fault the Qun for no making sense. I'd say fault yourself for not being able to make sense of the Qun because it makes perfect sense to me.

[AzureAardvark]

I'd say don't fault the Qun for no making sense. I'd say fault yourself for not being able to make sense of the Qun because it makes perfect sense to me.

 

Welp, just keep it right on up, then.

[atamajakki]

Actually, I'm mostly talking about how the whole "rigid roles" has been whitewashed over time.
 
There seems to be a "you can be whomever you want in the qun!" theme going on, when if we actually stare at what the tenets are, "no, you can't be whomever you want to be, you'll go and do what we bloody well tell you or you can visit the happy camps".
 
The qun is inclusive if you only look at "anyone can join", but everyone (including BW's writers) seems to ignore the follow-on "...but you damn well better do what you're told."

I'm really not seeing the "you can be whoever you want!" thing that has you so riled up. Krem is a man. The Qun treats him as a man because he confines to their traditional male roles.

This is nothing new; in essence, the Qun will treat you as male or female so long as you perform as the gender you identify as. The Qun would still drop the hammer on a Qunari who identified as female but wanted to be a warrior, but has no reason to deny a trans individual their place.

Gender is where the Qunari place their roles, and gender has nothing to do with what you've got between your legs.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

It's not. The Qun is, in fact, whatever the writers want it to be, but it's fiction. People aren't disputing that, they are disputing whether or not it's been retconned from game to game, whether the notion that they are both a sexist society and accepting of transgender individiduals simultaneuously is one of those retcons, and wheither or not it is an attempt to white-wash or "soften" the Qun.

The writers can do what the want. All we can do is decide whether what they did is dumb or not.

I don't think 'sexist' as we conceive of the notion applies very much in the world of Thedas. This is a place where all standing militaries are gender inclusive (bar Qunari) and most kingdoms have eqigender lines of succession. This is a world that has different rules.

But we definately were supposed to get that the Qunari have VERY clearly defined gender roles. Krem has a very clear Gender. What is the problem?

[Super Drone]

I don't think 'sexist' as we conceive of the notion applies very much in the world of Thedas. This is a place where all standing militaries are gender inclusive (bar Qunari) and most kingdoms have eqigender lines of succession. This is a world that has different rules.

But we definately were supposed to get that the Qunari have VERY clearly defined gender roles. Krem has a very clear Gender. What is the problem?

 

From Merriam-Webster.com

 

[sexism:  behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex .]

 

I get that we've been using the term "gender roles" because some of the people in this argument are both sensitive to gender issues / transgender issues and  Qun apologists, but by definition, Qunari society is sexist.

 

If they are both sexist and utterly accepting of transgender people.... okay, I guess? It still strikes me as a touch tone-deaf in a society that doesn't as a rule make exceptions for individual people's differences or needs, but...

[atamajakki]

From Merriam-Webster.com
 
[sexism:  behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex .]
 
I get that we've been using the term "gender roles" because some of the people in this argument are both sensitive to gender issues / transgender issues and  Qun apologists, but by definition, Qunari society is sexist.
 
If they are both sexist and utterly accepting of transgender people.... okay, I guess? It still strikes me as a touch tone-deaf in a society that doesn't as a rule make exceptions for individual people's differences or needs, but...

It's been asked before; what nakes you think the Qunari associate sex with gender? Krem makes more sense as a man than the Warden does as a woman, at least in the eyes of the Qun.

As it stands, we're debating in circles around a bit of canon we don't have a hard answer to yet, but your stance carries a cissexist note of "what people REALLY are" or otherwise implying that being trans is a desire.

The Qunari sort by gender. Transgender individuals who act in accordance with the Qun's dictated roles for their genders shouldn't be an issue, unless you can explain why it would be.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

From Merriam-Webster.com

[sexism: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex .]

I get that we've been using the term "gender roles" because some of the people in this argument are both sensitive to gender issues / transgender issues and Qun apologists, but by definition, Qunari society is sexist.

If they are both sexist and utterly accepting of transgender people.... okay, I guess? It still strikes me as a touch tone-deaf in a society that doesn't as a rule make exceptions for individual people's differences or needs, but...

Fair. But in my understanding sexism is so closely tied to society irl that I have a hard time understanding where it fits in this fantasy world. Also. I'm a man. So I often overlook sexism without even meaning to.

But if I remember correctly some of the things Isabella said in DA2 and some of the things in the Cousland origin lead me to be leave that even the greater world of Thedas still has some sexism issues.

But Thedas does have a leg up on IRL when it comes to sexuality and gender in the military and ruling elite. Barring the Qunari.

Qunari society is absolutely sexist. But sexism is a separate thing from transphobia. And if we take Krem at his word that he 'always knew.' There shouldn't be any reason that a Tamassaran couldn't identify who Krem is at an early age and place him in a male role.

Nothing Sten or the Arishock or the Talis have said contradict the existence of Aqun Atlock. And only Sten says anything that even comes close.

In fact, Sten seemingly waiting for a female Warden to announce she is a man supports the existence of Aqun Athlock. Sten is not an idiot. If he hadn't seen men that looked like a female Warden, where would be the confusion for him? He even says that he isn't sure that the Warden IS a female.

If everyone is as they apear to be in the Qun (warriors are big and muscly) then why even HAVE Priests or Tamassarans. Why even have somebody who decides what your role is if it wasn't something that required an entire life of professional training to master.

The existence of Aqun Athlock may be new information. But it seems to fit with what we know, quite easily. And helps us get a better picture of what Qunari society is like.

I see no 'retroactive continuity'. Just continuity.

[myahele]

We know there are people assigned to be sex workers. I wonder just how willing they are. Perhaps Isabella should've converted when she had the chance

[berrieh]

Krem was inclusive. Iron Bull accepting Krem as a man was inclusive.

 

The Qun is not supposed to be a Utopian Society. Inclusivness doesn't mean every character in a work of fiction has to react overwhelmingly positive about the thing you are trying to increase awareness about. Thedas wasn't supposed to be a wish-fulfillment setting of Perfect Social Justice. It's a DARK FANTASY world, full of violence, racism, and bigotry. If inclusiveness NECESSITATES puppies-and-rainbows unilateral positvity even from the "Bad Guys", then the setting turns into something else.

 

The Qun has good and bad qualities. It has to be appealing in some ways - and it has always been shown as inclusive and appreciative of people for who they are, so this way fits. It's not Utopian (it's actually closer to dystopian, but it's not really that either) - it's simply theocratic. And it's plenty dark fantasy. They have gamek. They have re-educators. They're basically big, scary communists. They don't need to force trans people not to be trans in order to be rigid, dark, and scary just like they don't need to hate and demean elves for it. They've got it covered already, so inclusiveness in those ways doesn't make them some magical ideal because you still have to be a cog in the wheel of the Qun, and some people aren't down with that. 

 

Actually, I'm mostly talking about how the whole "rigid roles" has been whitewashed over time.

 

There seems to be a "you can be whomever you want in the qun!" theme going on, when if we actually stare the tenets it's more like, "yes, everyone can join; no, you can't be whomever you want to be, you'll go and do what we bloody well tell you or you can visit the happy camps".

 

The qun is inclusive if you only look at "anyone can join", but everyone (including BW's writers) seems to ignore the follow-on "...but you damn well better do what you're told."

 

There are still rigid roles. It's just that you initially had a poor understanding of their origin, based on your assumptions about gender. (Totally natural assumptions based on what we knew, but nothing has changed with the Qun - just with our understanding of it.) Sten never discusses this issue - he merely says women can't be warriors and so forth. Krem is not a woman. 

 

The Qun is inclusive in lots of ways. It is also very rigid. And it's not really into letting you leave or carve your own path, if you're not into it. You can't be whomever you want to be, but you can be who you are.

[Super Drone]

It's been asked before; what nakes you think the Qunari associate sex with gender? Krem makes more sense as a man than the Warden does as a woman, at least in the eyes of the Qun.

As it stands, we're debating in circles around a bit of canon we don't have a hard answer to yet, but your stance carries a cissexist note of "what people REALLY are" or otherwise implying that being trans is a desire.

The Qunari sort by gender. Transgender individuals who act in accordance with the Qun's dictated roles for their genders shouldn't be an issue, unless you can explain why it would be.

 

Sigh.....

 

 

No. just no.

 

 

My stance has never been about transgender people and what they are or aren't.  You don't need to keep trying to educate me, I already understand how it works.

 

 

My stance has everything to do with the Qun and what it is or isn't.

 

 

You keep hearing transgender and negativity in the same sentence and assuming it's transphobia. If anything it's Qun-phobia.