We know there are people assigned to be sex workers. I wonder just how willing they are. Perhaps Isabella should've converted when she had the chance
If anything it's Qun-phobia.
Yeep. Thread became "stick fork in eyes fun" about a couple posts in.
Yeep.
Sigh.....
No. just no.
My stance has never been about transgender people and what they are or aren't. You don't need to keep trying to educate me, I already understand how it works.
My stance has everything to do with the Qun and what it is or isn't.
You keep hearing transgender and negativity in the same sentence and assuming it's transphobia. If anything it's Qun-phobia.
You wrote a lot. You never answer the key question the other poster asked:
It's been asked before; what nakes you think the Qunari associate sex with gender?
Krem was inclusive. Iron Bull accepting Krem as a man was inclusive.
The Qun is not supposed to be a Utopian Society. Inclusivness doesn't mean every character in a work of fiction has to react overwhelmingly positive about the thing you are trying to increase awareness about. Thedas wasn't supposed to be a wish-fulfillment setting of Perfect Social Justice. It's a DARK FANTASY world, full of violence, racism, and bigotry. If inclusiveness NECESSITATES puppies-and-rainbows unilateral positvity even from the "Bad Guys", then the setting turns into something else.
And yes, I get that some people were always here for the LGBT content, and aren't actually interested in the Dark Fantasy. That's fair, I guess.
Ah...I'm not really sure why you think that the Qun is becoming a utopian society. Or is it that you're annoyed that some others might begin seeing the Qun this way? They still have all the same negative points they did in DA:O. The idea that they view gender very differently than any society in the real world does doesn't make them utopian in my view; it just makes them even more alien.
That's... not a thing. Even a little bit. The Tamassrans pair individuals up for reproduction, but nobody's role in the Qun is to be a breeding stud or to pump out babies.
Yes it is. Iron Bull explains to the PC that the Qunari don't have relationships, but that they do have sex. That a Tamassran will "pop your cork" when you need it.
He even goes on to explain that sometimes it's a quickie and sometimes it's an all day thing.
Sigh.....
No. just no.
My stance has never been about transgender people and what they are or aren't. You don't need to keep trying to educate me, I already understand how it works.
My stance has everything to do with the Qun and what it is or isn't.
You keep hearing transgender and negativity in the same sentence and assuming it's transphobia. If anything it's Qun-phobia.
What is the Qun?
This isn't a rhetorical question. What do you base your ''the Qun is X'' assumptions on? As others have said, the fact that Sten is confused about the Warden's gender does not mean that transgenders are not a thing in Qunari society. It's very possible that, if faced with Krem, Sten wouldn't even bother to question his gender. Looks like a man, talks like a man, fights like a man, is a man, period. The Warden on the other hand couldn't be played as a transgender and was clearly a woman and a fighter both, which is what confuses Sten.
Let's also remember Sten has limited knowledge of both the world and the Qun. As a member of the Antaam, he only knows what the Antaam needs to know to get by. As far as they are concerned, fighters are men who are married to their swords. Ben-Hassrath, however, have a forcibly very different outlook. Sten outright says in a banter that we shouldn't judge the entire Qun based on him, since he's just one soldier. He is the first Qunari we meet, but in no way is he mean to be the be-all and end-all of Qunari lore.
I'm also not seeing how this sanitizes the Qun in any way. They still brainwash people. They still want to conquer Thedas. They still send assassins all over the place. They still wage war over Seheron. They still have strict gender roles with very limited personal freedoms. They just aren't seen as a society of robots anymore which is good to me.
Ah...I'm not really sure why you think that the Qun is becoming a utopian society. Or is it that you're annoyed that some others might begin seeing the Qun this way? They still have all the same negative points they did in DA:O. The idea that they view gender very differently than any society in the real world does doesn't make them utopian in my view; it just makes them even more alien.
The view Iron Bull is espousing is not supposed to be alien to us living in the modern world in 2014. Educated members of modern society are supposed to understand that a transgendered man is a man regardless of their biology. But we're (ostensibly) a series of societies that care about individual people's rights and ability to lead happy lives. Also the path to that undertstanding was paved by decades of scientific study, and social progress fighting related issues, like (as a totally random explample) Gender Roles and Sexism.
Everything we know about the Qun says that an individual has no rights, and that happiness comes from doing what you're told. Why would it matter to them? It's not a matter of efficiency, a cisgendered female never gets assigned by the Qun to a man's role outside of a disaster situation, no matter how good she would be at the role. But the Qun is sensitive enough of a society to analyze and respect the fact that that same individual with a women's body may have the neurobiology of a man?
I don't see it.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
uh huh.
I need more weed for this to make sense.
Just read Plato. Or a small synopsis on it.. plenty of booklets out there. No weed required. 
The view Iron Bull is espousing is not supposed to be alien to us living in the modern world in 2014. Educated members of modern society are supposed to understand that a transgendered man is a man regardless of their biology. But we're (ostensibly) a series of societies that care about individual people's rights and ability to lead happy lives. Also the path to that undertstanding was paved by decades of scientific study, and social progress fighting related issues, like (as a totally random explample) Gender Roles and Sexism.
Everything we know about the Qun says that an individual has no rights, and that happiness comes from doing what you're told. Why would it matter to them? It's not a matter of efficiency, a cisgendered female never gets assigned by the Qun to a man's role outside of a disaster situation, no matter how good she would be at the role. But the Qun is sensitive enough of a society to analyze and respect the fact that that same individual with a women's body may have the neurobiology of a man?
I don't see it.
You are the gender you identify as, so long as you perform the expected roles of that gender. That's our understanding of Qunari gender roles currently. Where does biology factor in at all?
It factors into the understanding that you don't actually get to choose your role. Your role is chosen for you. If you don't like it, tough luck. THAT is something we do, in fact, know about Qunari society.
The counter to this fact by people working with just as little information assumes the Tamassrans can catch all the transgendered children before the age of 12 (which is when roles are assigned) and assign them their appropriate gender, and that the transgendered person doesn't actually get to choose that either.
Assuming that is a realistic scenario (which assumes children in a conformist society aren't compelled to conceal any internal differences where they deviate from their peers. Which, well... have you ever met children?), again... why? Why does a society that responds to atypicality with brainwashing and mind-control drugs not just use the brainwashing and mind-control drugs? Because they don't equate sex and gender? Why wouldn't they when (assuming percentages are the same between Earth and Thedas) for over 99% of their population, Sex would equate to gender?
Again, I'm not talking Should. Should is not in question and never has been. I'm talking Would.
Why does everyone default to "they're acting different? TIME TO BUST OUT THE QAMEK" approach to the Qun? Bull himself mentions going to the re-educators and saying "yeah, none of this is working out for me, I'm really not digging the Qun anymore." Did they bury him in a labor camp or make him a zombie? No, they put him to work elsewhere.
The Qun is not "fall in line or you lose your brain privileges."
Well, I'm sure they start with brainwashing first. supposedly very effective brainwashing.
Bull was a Hisraad. A spy. infiltrating the Bas under cover as a Tal-Vashoth is totally within his role. No doubt a valuable resource like a Ben-Hassreth veteran merits more extensive attempts to re-habilitate.
I doubt unhappy toilet cleaners get the same treatment.
Everything we know about the Qun says that an individual has no rights, and that happiness comes from doing what you're told. Why would it matter to them? It's not a matter of efficiency, a cisgendered female never gets assigned by the Qun to a man's role outside of a disaster situation, no matter how good she would be at the role. But the Qun is sensitive enough of a society to analyze and respect the fact that that same individual with a women's body may have the neurobiology of a man?
I don't see it.
You still haven't answered the crucial question: What makes you think that the Qunari view biological sex and gender as the same thing? What have you seen in lore that suggests this? Isn't this coming from outside the game itself, from a current-day, common view of how gender works (that then must be reconciled with "modern society" PC education to show that we should be sensitive to other views, but only because we had such a particular view in the first place - a particular view that does not need to be developed, is not true in every society in human history IRL, and certainly doesn't have to be true to the Qunari).
I'm not talking about PC sensitivity. Why can't they view someone as innately a particular gender based on a variety of factors? Since they look so intently for where someone is best used? The whole notion of gender roles under the Qun is about putting each person to their absolute best use. That's a huge Qun principle mentioned over and over again - Waste nothing, best use, be who you are, nothing more and nothing less.
I underlined a part of your post because I find it incorrect. Sten's happiness may come from doing what he's told - because he is a soldier, and that is part of his nature. But what we actually see in Codex entries and throughout is that the Qunari happiness comes from being who you are, from recognizing and accepting your true nature and place in society under the Qun. This means playing your role, yes, but it should be a role that you are placed in not simply because you are "told" or it is needed but because it suits you perfectly. ("Perfectly" is likely hard to do for everyone. That is merely the ideal, I'm sure.) Those two concepts may not seem different, but I think they are.
Now the Qunari do not believe that all people are essentially good at knowing what they are, and thus it does not have people place themselves, because that would lead to scheming and such. So, no it's not about choice. Because they don't think people are good at choosing, and they want what's best and everyone in the suitable role. Now, practically, maybe the Qunari do re-educate people to keep them doing as-told sometimes. But I don't believe that's the idealistic goal according to their theocratic society. I believe the goal is to keep them in the role that suits them. Now, from our perspective it's all "You didn't pick your job?" but Bull addresses this perfectly. No, he didn't pick his job. But it was arrived at based on preferences and inclinations that he truly had. He wasn't just placed in it because someone needed to fill a quota. It suited his true nature.
It factors into the understanding that you don't actually get to choose your role. Your role is chosen for you. If you don't like it, tough luck. THAT is something we do, in fact, know about Qunari society.
The counter to this fact by people working with just as little information assumes the Tamassrans can catch all the transgendered children before the age of 12 (which is when roles are assigned) and assign them their appropriate gender, and that the transgendered person doesn't actually get to choose that either.
1.) You've said this "Age of 12" thing a few time, as have others. I cannot find this in any Codex, in the World of Thedas, or in any game dialogue references. I see it in the Wiki, but it only links to conversations with a dev, and it's a rather cheeky response that includes a comment about a #2 pencil. Am I meant to take that as canon? Why is it not in WoT or any codices then? It still doesn't really change the point - as I don't see why they wouldn't have identified it by then - but I find it hard to believe we have absolute canon on that.
2.) I've never really seen the Qunari view as "tough luck." I can see how it'd be viewed that way when Sten is talking about the people in Ferelden, but in the lands of the Qun, the people are in roles that they are carefully assigned. They're not just assigned haphazardly. There is some basis in need, of course, but they seem to take great care in breeding what they need, raising what they need, and identifying where people fit in. It's not "This is what we need - tough luck." It's more like "This is what you are, this is what you can be best at and best serve the Qun as, and why would you want any different?" I see no reason to believe someone like Krem wouldn't best serve the Qun as a man and a warrior.
Assuming that is a realistic scenario (which assumes children in a conformist society aren't compelled to conceal any internal differences where they deviate from their peers.
Why would they be compelled to conceal internal differences at a time where they're specifically being observed for temperament, aptitude, and personality so they can be placed into a role? It seems like they'd be less conformist as children. They would be taught the Qun, to some degree, perhaps, though based on Sten, it suggests that they are actually taught parts of the Qun based on their roles later, maybe. But the Qun does not suggest every member should be the same. It suggests that individuality is not as important as the collective, but not that diversity is not an important part of the collective (in fact, even Sten is very clear that every role is vital and diversity is crucial).
Which, well... have you ever met children?), again... why?
Yes. I have met children in many societies, as a teacher in several countries, and not all countries are conformist are equally so, and thus not all children are conformist or equally so. And that's just in our little world. I feel like a lot of people are having trouble not applying the rules of our culture to the Qunari.
Why does a society that responds to atypicality with brainwashing and mind-control drugs not just use the brainwashing and mind-control drugs? Because they don't equate sex and gender? Why wouldn't they when (assuming percentages are the same between Earth and Thedas) for over 99% of their population, Sex would equate to gender?
Why does that percentage matter if you're looking for someone's essential nature very carefully as part of your religious doctrine? I don't think they'd even consider it that way.
Again: Why would they equate sex with gender? I can find no logical reason for arguing this except "Because we do, as a society." (And we do, even if we live in a theoretical world where transgender-ed people are accepted.) And that reason doesn't work.
As to the mind-control drugs, they are to break a rebellious mind, but if being trans is not something that breaks the Qun, then why would it be necessary. Gamek is not used widely (it is applied sparingly, and not as a first resort even by the people who utilize it). And their form of brainwashing is supposedly aligning you with your essential nature, but why is it you believe they cannot accept that Krem's essential nature would be masculine?
This Thread has become a Bleak Quagmire
It's more like a dog chasing its tail.
It's more like a dog chasing its tail.
Nah that's actually kind of cute.
This is just annoying.
I had a response ready. Then I read berriah's post, and I realized someone had already posted everything I was going to say.
Especially this:
I feel like a lot of people are having trouble not applying the rules of our culture to the Qunari.
Or worse, not applying their own ideals of what RL societies ought to be doing.
Guest_Puddi III_*
I take it Bull is probably more knowledgeable about the intricacies of the Qun since he is ben-hassreth and Sten is a warrior. Also, all people of a religion or philosophy don't understand it the same way. Obnoxious as Mother Giselle can be, she makes a fair point about that.
Even so, they're not necessarily out of accord with each other, if Sten just doesn't understand why someone who identifies as a woman is performing a man's role. That's not what Krem is.
BW retconned the Qun, as they retconned the templars not needing lyrium. They don't care about their lore. This was apparent with both ME3, and the last ME novel. If they find something they can't work around because they want to add something interesting (usually it's just fanservice) they will butcher their lore in an instant. This isn't new news.
I stayed around to see where this would go, and after this post, i've realized something.
This might be a retcon of a retcon..... Sten In DAO has an attitude that sends the message of that the qunari are 'Builders, craftsman and conquerors'.
Then in DA2, they suddenly get the attitude of 'qunari waste nothing'.
Why would a society that wanted things their way, to work a certain way, want anything to do with a proven failure? They are not scavengers, they do not have a lack of supplies and have no need for it seeing as how they conquered half of thedas with ease in less than only two years, why would they reuse things? the placement system set up is 'this is your role, it is your name, it is your life, it is your being.' we see this by how the qunari are named after their positions, and how sten had such an affinity for his sword, calling it his life. An unarmed warrior missing his selected weapon is a failure and useless to everyone.
I had a response ready. Then I read berriah's post, and I realized someone had already posted everything I was going to say.
Especially this:
I feel like a lot of people are having trouble not applying the rules of our culture to the Qunari.
Or worse, not applying their own ideals of what RL societies ought to be doing.
What. We are miles more humane and left wing than the Qunari. Even George Bush is.
If anything it's the opposite, where real life social justice agendas are causing retcons like this.
Daaaang Berrieh! Hit em with the logic.
I was gunna write a whole dissertation about this but read your post and I'm like. Yup. You gotta this.
Imma gunna sip this wine and boot up Inqusition.
You... you.. bring in contemporary human culture throughout your posts. Talk about choosing sides when convenient
I stayed around to see where this would go, and after this post, i've realized something.
This might be a retcon of a retcon..... Sten In DAO has an attitude that sends the message of that the qunari are 'Builders, craftsman and conquerors'.
Then in DA2, they suddenly get the attitude of 'qunari waste nothing'.
Why would a society that wanted things their way, to work a certain way, want anything to do with a proven failure? They are not scavengers, they do not have a lack of supplies and have no need for it seeing as how they conquered half of thedas with ease in less than only two years, why would they reuse things? the placement system set up is 'this is your role, it is your name, it is your life, it is your being.' we see this by how the qunari are named after their positions, and how sten had such an affinity for his sword, calling it his life. An unarmed warrior missing his selected weapon is a failure and useless to everyone.
You are pondering why Sten was accepted back into the Qunari, after losing his weapon?
If not, I'm not sure what you are confused over.
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