646 réponses à ce sujet

[joejoe099]

You are pondering why Sten was accepted back into the Qunari, after losing his weapon?

 

If not, I'm not sure what you are confused over.

 

Sten wasn't really kicked from the Qun since they never knew of it until he came back until he did get his sword. He might have had a tough and rough time, but in the end he succeeded in his mission, therefor his purpose.

 

I'm confused as per why the Qun would even allow Bull to change his location now, and why the Arishok would even reference converts. The converts the arishok took in were not their mission, their mission was to only retrieve the Tome of Koslun, nothing more. Sten focuses on his mission, to study and find out what the blight is. He simply figures to follow the last grey wardens, those who have taken it upon themselves to study all things Blight related, to find a proper answer. Why would the Arishok allow converts in his compound then?

[Heimdall]

Sten wasn't really kicked from the Qun since they never knew of it until he came back until he did get his sword. He might have had a tough and rough time, but in the end he succeeded in his mission, therefor his purpose.
 
I'm confused as per why the Qun would even allow Bull to change his location now, and why the Arishok would even reference converts. The converts the arishok took in were not their mission, their mission was to only retrieve the Tome of Koslun, nothing more. Sten focuses on his mission, to study and find out what the blight is. He simply figures to follow the last grey wardens, those who have taken it upon themselves to study all things Blight related, to find a proper answer. Why would the Arishok allow converts in his compound then?

Well, I think there's something to the idea that he needed to replenish his ranks and may have been open to the idea as a means to complete his mission.

[Bod02]

Nah, man. My side is 'there is no retcon.' With a dose of 'makes sense to me.' It's just nice to see Berriah lay it out comprehensively. Saves me the trouble

I really hope you're being deliberately obtuse but Berriah wasn't talking about retcons they were talking comparing real life with the game.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

BW retconned the Qun, as they retconned the templars not needing lyrium. They don't care about their lore. This was apparent with both ME3, and the last ME novel. If they find something they can't work around because they want to add something interesting (usually it's just fanservice) they will butcher their lore in an instant. This isn't new news.

 

They could have avoided this whole discussion by having a non Qun character bring it up, like in Elven society blah blah, rather than forcing this concept into the Qun.

 

People keep saying "Where in the lore does it say the Qun see sex and gender as the same concept". Where in the lore does it say they don't? This 'cic/trans' thing is a very modern concept in the real world. In a fantasy world it seems shoehorned in. it certainly appears nowhere in the DA lore Some people like it placed into the Qun? Great, you got it. Enjoy! But different people, different opinions, right?

[joejoe099]

Well, I think there's something to the idea that he needed to replenish his ranks and may have been open to the idea as a means to complete his mission.

 

But he didn't need those numbers, considering the fact he took over the entire city in less than a goddamn hour. The arishok even knows who stole the tome, and stayed so long in the city because she did, it's why isabella never comes into the compound with us, because he'd point her out right away.

[berrieh]

Sten wasn't really kicked from the Qun since they never knew of it until he came back until he did get his sword. He might have had a tough and rough time, but in the end he succeeded in his mission, therefor his purpose.

 

I'm confused as per why the Qun would even allow Bull to change his location now, and why the Arishok would even reference converts. The converts the arishok took in were not their mission, their mission was to only retrieve the Tome of Koslun, nothing more. Sten focuses on his mission, to study and find out what the blight is. He simply figures to follow the last grey wardens, those who have taken it upon themselves to study all things Blight related, to find a proper answer. Why would the Arishok allow converts in his compound then?

 

Bull's job is to change his location - his current "role" is to blend into human society and spy where he can best gather information. He does that as a mercenary. It's also basically stated he that the Qunari are very concerned about the Inquisition and the Breach you're reacting to, and thus he has basically been told to get as close to the Inquisition as he can. So, he's not just "allowed" to change his location but actually supposed to. It's his gig. 

 

The Qunari accept everyone to the Qun. In DA2, they were not actively attempting to convert and conquer (until the end of Act 2) but it was likely not an overreach to accept willing converts who came to them, which is the story with the converts we see. It seems like it would go against their philosophy to turn anyone away from the Qun. As to the Arishok's overreach in Kirkwall, that is made clear in the lore; it's why he's no longer the Arishok. Dude was, at least, demoted for it. But not likely for the converts who came willingly. I think it is the duty of all Qunari leaders to accept converts in such circumstances. 

 

They could have avoided this whole discussion by having a non Qun character bring it up, like in Elven society blah blah, rather than forcing this concept into the Qun.

 

People keep saying "Where in the lore does it say the Qun see sex and gender as the same concept". Where in the lore does it say they don't? This 'cic/trans' thing is a very modern concept in the real world. In a fantasy world it seems shoehorned in. it certainly appears nowhere in the DA lore Some people like it placed into the Qun? Great, you got it. Enjoy! But different people, different opinions, right?

 

Where does it say they don't? Well, Iron Bull's explanation of the concept they have for Krem suggests he can easily be a man in a man's role. He even gives a fancy Qunari word I can't spell yet for it. And it fits nicely into everything we've seen so far, unless you go around insisting that we see Krem as a woman and that the Qunari would (when Bull says they wouldn't). 

 

That's where in the lore it says that they don't, and it doesn't contradict anything already said, since Krem would still have to fulfill a man's role as a man. Did they tell us this sooner? No. We have learned more about the Qun with each exposure to it. That's usually how things work. We likely still know just the tip of the iceberg of the Qun. As long as they do not contradict themselves, it is not a retcon, and my argument and reason for asking the question is because without that assumption (biological sex = gender), there is no reason this is a retcon. Disliking this aspect of the Qun is fine, if you do, but that is not the same as saying it's a retcon. 

 

Personally, I don't worry about "like" or "dislike" when it comes to the Qun. I can't get down with the philosophy personally because they cut mage's tongue's out, and that's the end. (Everything else, I can actually work with, including the gamek because the gamek is such a last resort.) But that doesn't mean it makes it any less fascinating a philosophy. The whole thing that makes it fascinating though, besides it's alienness, is that it's not just evil grey conquerors who mind-control everyone and treat people like ****; it's a society that is actually very good for a lot of people. This was true even from the Codex entries in DA:O (and some of Sten's dialogue, though he's not good at explaining the positive aspects of the Qun and I can see why they didn't put him in PR). I don't know why people are acting like it was "softened" for Krem when really they've shown us various sides, throughout various games and comics and codices, and it's been clear that the Qun is a complicated religious doctrine that we only understand pieces of for a long time now. 

[celestialfury]

 

 

 

You still haven't answered the crucial question: What makes you think that the Qunari view biological sex and gender as the same thing?

 

 

Because unless you're too deep in post-modernist queer theory tumblr invention, gender doesn't mean ''gender identity'',  but this:

 

 

sex is different than gender, as in one is the physical reality of being male or female and the other are the behaviors and roles associated with it, but it's not different as in ''I see this person is male but I wonder what their gender is!''.  

[atamajakki]

This 'cic/trans' thing is a very modern concept in the real world. In a fantasy world it seems shoehorned in. it certainly appears nowhere in the DA lore Some people like it placed into the Qun? Great, you got it. Enjoy! But different people, different opinions, right?

First things first; many cultures have concepts beyond the gender binary (hijra, two-spirit, etc), so writing off anything other than cis as modern and unrealistic is simply ignorant. Beyond that, I have to ask why you think a fantasy world should somehow have /less/ social concepts than the real world, when the purpose of fantasy by definition is to explore new ideas?

As for non-cis individuals "certainly appearing nowhere in DA lore," Maevaris is a canon trans individual who debuted in a comic almost three years ago. You're behind the times.

[Wittand25]

Everything we know about the Qun says that an individual has no rights, and that happiness comes from doing what you're told. Why would it matter to them? It's not a matter of efficiency, a cisgendered female never gets assigned by the Qun to a man's role outside of a disaster situation, no matter how good she would be at the role. But the Qun is sensitive enough of a society to analyze and respect the fact that that same individual with a women's body may have the neurobiology of a man?

 

I don't see it.

Not all societies develop along the same lines. And so a society can be very accepting in one area and completely intolerant in another.

To bring up a real world example:

The nation of Iran is more than happy accepting transgender persons (provided they undergo sex reassignment surgery) and even pays  partly for the required operations.

Apostasy on the other hand can still end with the death penalty.

[atamajakki]

Not all societies develop along the same lines. And so a society can be very accepting in one area and completely intolerant in another.
To bring up a real world example:
The nation of Iran is more than happy accepting transgender persons (provided they undergo sex reassignment surgery) and even pays  partly for the required operations.
Apostasy on the other hand can still end with the death penalty.

Hell, we even see this in Thedas. Tevinter has no apparently problem with a trans person in a position of political authority yet intensely frowns upon homoromanticism (yet not with homosexuality).

[Heimdall]

Hell, we even see this in Thedas. Tevinter has no apparently problem with a trans person in a position of political authority yet intensely frowns upon homoromanticism (yet not with homosexuality).

Well, they only seem to have a problem with it if it gets in the way of breeding better mages.

[Angloassassin]

I've read through all of this in the past hour or two between dinner - and I can honestly say, half of you would burn my likes to nothing. The other half leave me shaking my head in a moment of silence for beings both real and fictional.

 

 

My two cents.

 

Krem would fit the Qun fine.

 

Sten was a grunt only given enough of the Qun to fulfill his role to the best of his ability. He even states multiple times that he's not a good gauge or authority, and that people can't be easily described for reference.

 

Bull - while eventually becoming Tal-Vashoth, was still slated for Ben Hassarath at a young age, and has been ever since. Even if his interactions make him a bit more 'native' towards the end. He'd still know a much more substantial amount of the Qun. Since they are technically under the Ariqun, they would likely be 2nd only to their priests in Education.

 

A lot of this argument is circular, and is filled with real-world comparisons to a Fictional-world setting. It may be Bioware's social commentary, but it is using a religion/belief system that is entirely fictional, and subject to whatever changes/Additions Bioware chooses. Since it is *Their* product.

 

With each member of the Qun we're given, we're given a much greater insight into it as a whole. First, a Grunt, The Arishok, A Loyal Ben Hassarath Convert, and a Less-than-loyal, but still educated *Born and Raised* Ben Hassarath.

 

And that's not counting Novels/Comics - which I'm sorely lacking in, and am making an effort to rectify.

 

I think it goes without saying: They cannot retconn*, that which hasn't been fully explained in the first place.

 

 

 

                          (*) Read as, enforce a change on established material.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Not all societies develop along the same lines. And so a society can be very accepting in one area and completely intolerant in another.

To bring up a real world example:

The nation of Iran is more than happy accepting transgender persons (provided they undergo sex reassignment surgery) and even pays  partly for the required operations.

Apostasy on the other hand can still end with the death penalty.

 

Yes. And for all about how people think tolerating homosexuality is so anachronic and politically correct, the ancient Greeks were far more OK with homosexuality more than two millenia ago than most countries are today. Including the much-beloved Sparta in all their manliness. Granted, it was mostly accepted for men and not for women, but still.

 

And anyway, it makes me laugh that people think a fantasy setting is too accepting. Dragons, magic, demons, elves, dwarves, horned humanoids, 100% fine and dandy. Societies developping along different lines than ours in a fictional setting that has an entirely different history and religions? Call the police, that SO unrealistic, right?

[Bod02]

And anyway, it makes me laugh that people think a fantasy setting is too accepting. Dragons, magic, demons, elves, dwarves, horned humanoids, 100% fine and dandy. Societies developping along different lines than ours in a fictional setting that has an entirely different history and religions? Call the police, that SO unrealistic, right?

No it's the other way round. People want it to be different and/or consistent with that Sten said. Thedas feels like tumblrland atm. Elves are bronies, men's right activists and pro-lifers because it's ok to hate those.

 

Yes. And for all about how people think tolerating homosexuality is so anachronic and politically correct, the ancient Greeks were far more OK with homosexuality more than two millenia ago than most countries are today. Including the much-beloved Sparta in all their manliness. Granted, it was mostly accepted for men and not for women, but still.

Yeah the greeks were so gay. Maybe that's why they liked small penises

[joejoe099]

No it's the other way round. People want it to be different and/or consistent with that Sten said. Thedas feels like tumblrland atm. Elves are bronies, men's right activists and pro-lifers because it's ok to hate those.

 

Yeah the greeks were so gay. Maybe that's why they liked small penises

 

The first bit, i'd describe tevinter as the bronies, men's rights and pro-lifers since everything 'evil' has been coming from there, and they're the only people that let's men be in position of religious power.

 

the second bit, let's not also forget that the greeks also liked screwing little kiddies all the time.

[Shimmer_Gloom]

Ug. Gross.

Angloassassin is right though. I'm glad other people got this cuz I don't have the patience.

[Myusha123]

At first I dismissed this topic. Because I figured it wasn't that bad of a leap for their SJ campaign which I relatively enjoyed. 

Playing through that conversation again though was just...Sten basically said women had their duty in the Qun.
Cue DA2 with Tallis and Ben-Hasserathetkrkr and it's a bit questionable. 
Now it's just completely backpedaling somewhat. 

I like Krem. I like transsexual representation. I don't like shoving it into lore where it might cause discrepancy. Iron Bull could've still appreciated Krem and his gender without making a comment about how the Qun calls transsexuals 'Aqun-blahblah'. Or could've spent a moment defining that gender is a concept one can identify themselves as. With Sten he didn't even make the assumption your gender was male. He simply stated, that you must be female and that your qualities cannot consist of fighting according to the Qun. 

Do adore Bioware's pushes for equal representation in games, but do wish they were far more careful so they don't retcon themselves. Now Sten might think some of my female Wardens are male, instead of proving that women can have the quality to fight.  xD

[atamajakki]

At first I dismissed this topic. Because I figured it wasn't that bad of a leap for their SJ campaign which I relatively enjoyed. 

Playing through that conversation again though was just...Sten basically said women had their duty in the Qun.
Cue DA2 with Tallis and Ben-Hasserathetkrkr and it's a bit questionable. 
Now it's just completely backpedaling somewhat. 

I like Krem. I like transsexual representation. I don't like shoving it into lore where it might cause discrepancy. Iron Bull could've still appreciated Krem and his gender without making a comment about how the Qun calls transsexuals 'Aqun-blahblah'. Or could've spent a moment defining that gender is a concept one can identify themselves as. With Sten he didn't even make the assumption your gender was male. He simply stated, that you must be female and that your qualities cannot consist of fighting according to the Qun. 

Do adore Bioware's pushes for equal representation in games, but do wish they were far more careful so they don't retcon themselves. Now Sten might think some of my female Wardens are male, instead of proving that women can have the quality to fight.  xD

 

You're coming into a thread where it's been pretty thoroughly explained how there's no retcon anywhere and complaining about it anyway. We don't need a retread.

 

And why are you complaining about adding to the lore? Would you prefer the Qun be nothing beyond Sten's dialogue? I don't get why anyone would be upset about the Ben-Hassreth existing.

[Myusha123]

You're coming into a thread where it's been pretty thoroughly explained how there's no retcon anywhere and complaining about it anyway. We don't need a retread.

 

And why are you complaining about adding to the lore? Would you prefer the Qun be nothing beyond Sten's dialogue? I don't get why anyone would be upset about the Ben-Hassreth existing.

Yes. Yes. I get the whole silly notion of Sten is a soldier. Must not know Qun at all or as well as Tallis or Iron Bull.  

Kind of implies to me that the Qun is bad at teaching the concept of transsexuals and is more of a disservice to that demographic of people if you interpret this way. Basically soldiers, the military might you're supposed to be patriotic and appreciate if you're in the Qun. Acknowledging their sacrifice fighting Fog Warriors, Tal-Vashoth, or Tevinters? They don't comprehend the idea of transexuals when they come home.

I'm also stating I believe there were many more believable methods of implementing this. It wouldn't be a problem if it fit in perfectly without a sense of being forced. 

[joejoe099]

You're coming into a thread where it's been pretty thoroughly explained how there's no retcon anywhere and complaining about it anyway. We don't need a retread.

 

And why are you complaining about adding to the lore? Would you prefer the Qun be nothing beyond Sten's dialogue? I don't get why anyone would be upset about the Ben-Hassreth existing.

 

Because if there is even a shred of doubt created by information given prior, then it is indeed a retcon. That is the literal definition.

 

ret·con

ˈretkän/

noun

 

1. 1.

   (in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.

 

People don't like retcon's because it makes things either stupidly over complicated, or goes against their original meaning.

 

I personally enjoy the idea of a totalitarian religion being to the far north that had nearly conquered the entire continent in less than two years. I liked the idea of every person getting set in a special place chosen for them and they were content with it. I liked the idea that men get their select spots, and women get their own. I liked this entire idea because it seemed entirely alien to the real world. It was entirely different, yet at the same time mildly the same. Personally, i'd rather not live in a world where my position is chosen for me and I can't better myself, but the idea of it, I can't deny, has its charm.

[Solar1101]

The Qunari are quite literally The Clans from the Battletech Universe.  They are raised in birthing groups (sibkos - short for sibling company) without parents and are trained for very specific roles from birth in a communo-fascist nature.  On top of that sex is freely available (in the Clans and under the Qun) and looked at as a recreational necessity since all births in the Qun/Clans are arranged.

 

Iron Bull should be driving a Warhawk into battle...Timber Wolf is too puny for him.

 

They even have a higher standard of tech than the rest of Thedas, fought the entire continent to a stand still and pulled back to a consolidated position that is constantly raided...yes Seheron is Tukayyid.

[Myusha123]

Adding more to the original stance, giving small review to a page or two ago. 

I suppose maybe I was wrong. It bordered on retcon but...if you go deep into gender and sex then you get the heart of the issue. 

The definition of gender and biological sex differing. Krem is biologically female, even identifies this through a line of conversion, however by all means and purposes is a male otherwise. 

The line of conversation with Sten showed this society that had gender roles.  It seemed Krem in respect to that would be controversial to the Qun because it would present an issue of actual gender over biological sex and how roles can be defined. Would a Qunari who fit a role better suited for a woman consider themselves a woman in order to best benefit the Qun?  It's an oddity of sorts and myriad of hornets waiting to burst. 

But seems they basically jumped the shark and declared that gender is identified in the Qun and respected, acknowledged. Biological sex has no role to play in their community outside of breeding and the statistics of what biological sex leans to what gender. They are engineering a society here. 

But I don't mind people crying out retcon here (unless we get into transphobia. But that's varied and more by individual by individual cases). It's a very weird transition for a sexist society to suddenly be revealed as gung-ho about transsexuals. Out of all the places on Thedas, I don't think the majority of people believed Par Vollen would be the best place for them to receive recognition. 

But given that we have so many "retcons" available in so many forms already in Dragon Age like Leliana resurrection (Or just unexplained for now. I blame Lyrium.)
or what happens if the Warden sends Anders back to the Templars and kills Justice only for them to emerge in Kirkwall as a Grey Warden preaching Mage Rebellion. 

Also a  fun quote from Mary Kirby. They say gender here, so I suppose they were clear on the issue for a while.  (http://forum.bioware...nari/?bioware=1)

Qunari believe the genders are inherently better at certain tasks: No matter how much aptitude a male shows for management, he'd never be as good at it as a female, therefore, it would never be considered efficient to put him into a role where a woman would serve better.  The Tamassrans would find something else he showed aptitude for, and have him do that instead.