646 réponses à ce sujet

[robertthebard]

He is also entirely dumbfounded by seeing children outside playing and you have an entire conversation about it with him. 
 
I'm more inclined to believe the entire expose/conversation is more representative of Sten/the Qun [given he was meant to be our introduction to it] than one banter line where he claims he is helping a kitten train. Which given his mindset is quite likely to be true.

What about this inherent contradiction in one character gives us any idea about how the Qun really works to say whether it's been changed or not?

[TheRevanchist]

They certainly would.  Bull was raised from birth and yet went to the re-educators when he could no longer understand the purpose of his role.  Re-educators reinforce the Qun's teachings to those who have lost their way...whether they like it or not.

That has very little to do with the idea that children are all taught the same way.  Its merely an assumption to assume that the Tamassran's use exactly one technique to teach, and test, children.  And yes, I am also making the assumption that more than one technique could exist, because we don't know for certain one way or another.  Which is why there isn't yet a contradiction.

 

There are no individual Tamassrans, there is no identity within the Qun. EVERYTHING, every aspect of their existence is uniform, done the most logical way. logic implies they believe they have the best way. You do not deviate from the optimal path of doing something.  

[DarkSpiral]

1) Except for the fact they would have been raised the same until the priests found out Bull was good at lying and fighting.

Also an assumption on your part.  How do you know this to be fact?

 

 

 

PS: Of course, entirely possible Bull is blowing hot air about it all given his official job description/name is liar. 

 

As I've mentioned, we have exactly zero information to tell us that the way Sten was raised was the way all children are raised.  Perhaps what Sten said mean that he studied the parts of the Qun that were relevant to his role, but refused to elaborate because it isn't his job to teach bas?

 

Bull could have been blowing smoke up the Inquisitor's butt, its true.  But the envoy lied, honestly, if you recall the foreshadowing book from DA2.

[DarkSpiral]

He is also entirely dumbfounded by seeing children outside playing and you have an entire conversation about it with him. 

 

I'm more inclined to believe the entire expose/conversation is more representative of Sten/the Qun [given he was meant to be our introduction to it] than one banter line where he claims he is helping a kitten train. Which given his mindset is quite likely to be true. 

Dismissing behavior from one of the two sources we're quoting because it doesn't match up with your theory does not help your case.

[DarkSpiral]

There are no individual Tamassrans, there is no identity within the Qun. EVERYTHING, every aspect of their existence is uniform, done the most logical way. logic implies they believe they have the best way. You do not deviate from the optimal path of doing something.  

What?  Oh, complete assumption on your part.  Where is the source for this information, please?  If you have it from a reliable source, rather than making it up based your impressions of the Qun to date, then yes that would invalidate my theory.

[Lexxbomb]

Dismissing behavior from one of the two sources we're quoting because it doesn't match up with your theory does not help your case.

ok so given that we have only had the ability to learn from 4-5 characters about Qun
Sten, Arishok,Talis,  That guy with the glowing tattoos and  Bull... do we know anything else from their perspective. also we can draw from the comics. 

[Big T]

They noticed bulls gift of lying, unthinkable to Sten. Maybe the question was did you study your Qun today, they both said yes and one lied, already showing shadier sides. Next you get converts such as his elf buddy Iforgethisname, put him with all the converts so the Qun doesn't seem so bad, why re-educate someone when they are to useful themselves. Now station said rebel in a place where his interactions seem less alien than Stens, or more friendly. Hell, he got fish tacos from the locals and was warned when they were poisoned. Now he gives up and volunteers for reeducation. Seeing his use, and how much the process could change what is useful, sends him out of country as a spy so he can still be as loyal as he can be while still retaining his mannerisms. Yes a negative mark compared to positive marks is probably the only reason he didn't get reeducated.

Now back to Sten, who told the truth and got set upon the normal path of the soldier. Shows promise during studies, becomes great. Earns his way up the ranks to lead an investigative expedition of what the blight is, especially with the "fear" of darkspawn Qunari or ogres. Whole party dies and he still manages to not only find out what it is, stops it without calling for backup. Where does his path end? He is named Arishock after the last one took a whole army on a quest for revenge.

Two personalities spurned from what could possibly one decision. As far as transgendered in the military, sten doesn't realize it cause he doesn't know, his men go by men and never get "healed" by each other cause they have the Healers. Bull is trained to notice that crap and guess what...doesn't care.

[Arakat]

I didn't see any problem. If your Warden is a woman, she speaks of herself with feminine words and makes clear she's a woman (you can even answer to Sten "I am a woman"). Sten has got problems with a woman fighting, because in Qun it's a man's job. Krem behaves like a man and speaks of himself with masculine words. He makes really clear that he's a man. So he can have a man's job according to the Qun.

 

This. I honestly don't see how it would be a contradiction or a retcon (in fact, I've seen a lot of people speculating this is exactly how the Qun works long before DA:I came out). Maybe Sten and Bull contradict each other in other matters, but this really isn't one of them.

[Lexxbomb]

one question tat is off point... re darkspawn. Ogres are Quanri darkspwn... buyt there are no female warriors in the Qun... so how does the Darkspawn in Thedas have Ogres...

[Navasha]

All I can say is that the Qun has a LOT more discontent among its ranks than it believes, or the Ben-Hassreth do a LOT more re-educating frequently.    There seems to be a lot more 'free-will' in Qun followers than they believe.   Bull and Tallis were all Qun followers who don't seem to adhere to its tenets very closely.     With the kind of free-will they display, then their society must be on the brink of collapse as others surely exist as well. 

[DarkSpiral]

I'll assume you're referring to Broodmothers.  I'm not really sure why you think only warriors have been captured by darkspawn?

[Big T]

one question tat is off point... re darkspawn. Ogres are Quanri darkspwn... buyt there are no female warriors in the Qun... so how does the Darkspawn in Thedas have Ogres...

It's why there aren't as many ogres as hurlocks or genlocks. Not as many woman fighting, physically they still have the woman bits, but that's all.

[littlebrightpanda]

one question tat is off point... re darkspawn. Ogres are Quanri darkspwn... buyt there are no female warriors in the Qun... so how does the Darkspawn in Thedas have Ogres

 

Kidnapping. Women can be part of the Ben-Hasserath, meaning they do leave the homeland. The darkspawn are wide-spread, so it isn't far-fetched that they have come across a group of Qunari that happened to have a female with them. According to Sten, Qunari know what Darkspawn are, so they must have encountered them somewhere. 

 

If you think about how often Ogres actually appear and that broodmother's are supposed to produce thousands of darkspawn, there could be very well only one Qunari broodmother out there. 

 

Edit: You don't have to be a warrior to become a broodmother. Just one female prisoner, being fed darkspawn tissue and then she turns into a broodmother and produces little darkspawn babies. 

[Daerog]

It is either a retcon or a clarification. Does it really matter? If there is confusion, just go with the most recent information. It doesn't destroy previous stories or anything. It just kinda ruins Sten's dialogue, but one can just imagine he views the female warden as a man and is confused when the warden says she is a woman.

 

The Qun still leashes its mages, brain-drains its dissidents, and greatly discourages individualism (names, romantic relationships, etc.), so it still has its disagreeable features.

 

Although, if Krem was born in the Qun, then Krem would be put in other roles instead of soldiering unless Krem showed a stronger gift in being a soldier instead of a craftsman, priest, or farmer. Krem can not choose, and if made a soldier would have to accept being considered a man, and personal opinion must conform with the Qun and not developed outside it, or it needs re-education.

[Daerog]

While not all qunari follow the Qun very well (Cole points this out when talking about a Qunari baker who folds extra sugar into her bread or something, which she knows is against the Qun), Sten possibly becomes the Arishok and The Iron Bull is a part of the religious secret police... so they should have a good understanding on their religion that is their law and way of life.

 

Still, it's not like they are changing how they deal with mages or suddenly making it a monarchy.

[DarkSpiral]

Looks like the debate hit a lull.  I was enjoying myself, ah well.

[Rifneno]

Bull has always been Tal-Vashoth. He's just the last to find out.

The Qun has not changed. The Qun is still nothing but a disease to be purged in fire. Bull is just not a real part of the Qun.

[TheRevanchist]

I got caught up in listening to party banters on youtube, since I cant ever hear them in the freaking game lol.

[Ogillardetta]

I got caught up in listening to party banters on youtube, since I cant ever hear them in the freaking game lol.

I found out a trick to that, just leave your console or pc running with the game on and loud volume on while you and your party are stadning somewhere on the map and do something else while you wait for banter. It will take time but it'll come.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Long story short there's been a retcon to make the Qun ........ less undesirable, Sten was quite clear since then bioware backed away from it, but being a good retcon they made it work within the context of the Qun without ignoring the issue and pretending it didn't happen.

 

It's a retcon......but its a good retcon. 

[Samahl na Revas]

I would believe Sten more than a Hissrad. Let's no forget that Iron Bull by his own people is seen as a liar. For all I know he could be making up somethings if not everything he is saying.

 

However, after reading a lot of the comments I can not find pure evidence of a retcon. Rather, at least to me it seemed as though Sten was simply questioning why a female warden was allowed to fight which is the role of a man. Furthermore, since Sten viewed her as female he simply did not question if she thought herself as a man. As for Bull the idea that Sten did not question whether the female warden saw herself as a man allowed for leeway to build up on or wiggle some other ideas in the Qun. Nothing is wasted, and there is no doubt what Krem believes of himself.

[Wulfram]

I think it fits well enough with prior stuff.  Though it's not as enlightened as it seems, because it only really works for people whose gender identity and role fit together in Qunari thought.

[Rifneno]

While we're on the topic of the qun, did anyone else lol when they saw the "dreadnought?" That was a glorified skiff. A handful of mages destroyed it. Dreadnought my ass.

[Jackal19851111]

Bull is Tal'Vashoth, he just doesn't know it yet when you first meet him. Heck his whole speech doesn't even come across as Qunari, he's assimilated into Thedas' culture. That's what happens when you spend too much time in foreign lands.