646 réponses à ce sujet

[Joseph Warrick]

Qunari women with the ability and will to be warriors are pressured and brainwashed into believing they are men. The Qun takes gender very very seriously and will go that far to enforce it.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The Qun is a philosophy that is driven by a very odd sense of equality. 

 

The issue here is Iron Bull's interpretation of transgender which goes against the interpretation of Sten.

 

Additionally, Bull is or was, depending on your actions in game, a Ben-Hassarath. They are like the Seekers, only worse. 

 

In my opinion, Bull's view on Qunari and sexuality is a advertiser-style view, it is view that is focused on promoting, not on fact because he was or is part of a covert religious enforcement organization. Whereas, Sten's view on this is a black-and-white, militaristic view because he is part of a very strict military organization.  

 

Which means we need to take their views with a pinch of salt, perhaps more than a pinch.

 

Until we meet Tamassrans or the Ariqun and can converse with them one-on-one regarding this matter, Qunari's viewpoint on transgender is up for debate. That is very polite way of saying, it can be retconned by Bioware, which they will do since they have become more and more pro-political correctness. 

[DarkSpiral]

Until we meet Tamassrans or the Ariqun and can converse with them one-on-one regarding this matter, Qunari's viewpoint on transgender is up for debate. That is very polite way of saying, it can be retconned by Bioware, which they will do since they have become more and more pro-political correctness. 

I agree with the first sentence wholeheartedly, and the second is probably correct.

[Trickshaw]

People are over thinking this to a ridiculous degree.

It's a simple re-evaluation of the Qun by Bioware. You're talking about a product and concept when DA was in it's infancy Vs. the same product/concept 5 years later. There's a reason so little information was given out about it. Writers do this all the time. You have an idea. You know the general concept of the idea but haven't worked out specifics. So you only reveal certain information until that idea is fully fleshed out.

That idea can change radically over the years into something better than you originally envisioned. So it's a good thing you didn't lock yourself down earlier when it was still a young concept. You see it ALLL the time in fantasy/scifi writing/movies/games.

[wolfsite]

Honestly it is probably best to hold on this type of discussion, there just isn't enough information available aside from what two characters have said (plus we still have no evidence that either was being completely truthful as even in the most strict philosophies you can have people interpreting things differently or fail to explain it properly, is there even any evidence that Sten has encountered a transgendered person?).

 

Plus keep in mind that Qunari in DA2 got very dismissive of people who questioned there beliefs or even asked to learn more about it claiming "It is not there place to educate".  Most cases the only way to learn about the Qun is to submit to the Qun. 

 

Please note I personally just feel there isn't enough information available to say if anything has been changed.

 

 

Again some people have brought of good discussion but I have seen the use of the same phrase re-interpreted to fit both sides of this discussion.

[kyles3]

The complaints about political correctness will never not be hilarious. Including people, ooh, what a crime.

[Iakus]

I chalk it up to Iron Bull lying not just to the Inquisitor, but to himself.  

 

He's been away from the Qun for years, and was having doubts even before then.  Despite this, he wants to remain loyal to his people.  And can't accept the fact that there are those among the Charger:  friends, comrades-in-arms, who would find their roles dramatically changed if they ever fell under the Qun.

 

I mean, would the Ariqun really accept that Dalish had a crystal-topped bow?

[Rifneno]

The complaints about political correctness will never not be hilarious. Including people, ooh, what a crime.

Not doing everything you can to make SJWs feel as bad as they actually are is indeed a crime.

[DarkSpiral]

Um...is SJW a poster on the forums with a bad rep?

 

<-confused

[Ogillardetta]

Um...is SJW a poster on the forums with a bad rep?

 

<-confused

SJW = Social Justice Warriors

[Jester]

So then why does Sten not ask your Warden if she considers herself such a thing? He should know what this is, and it would be familiar to him.  

Does your Warden look and behaves like a man? Of course not. 

The Bull even says there is a term for transgender people. 

 

Many people seem to misunderstand the Qun - and no wonder, it's a pretty complicated concept.

The Qun is not a reference to communism. At least not directly. It rather references utopian societies, like Utopia by Moore or The City of the Sun by Campanella. With it's own twist on it.

 

Now, what is the Qun's most important ground rule - a head principle?

Purpose. Everyone has a purpose. 

 

Now, the growing child's purpose is determined based on what they turn out to be good at, their attitude and behavior. After that, they're assigned a job. And for that, gender is important. Gender. Not sex, but gender. Because Qunari would never assign woman to a man's job* and vice-versa, they CANNOT assign a woman, who is psychologically a man, to a woman's job. Because it's not her purpose. Therefore, such a woman must be treated differently by the Qun. 

 

Now, why Sten is suprised and confused by female Warden fighting to stop the Blight? Because she looks like a woman. Behaves like a woman. A female Warden would be assigned a woman's job under the Qun. However, if Sten met Krem, he would not be suprised by him being a warrior - because in his case the Qun would assign him a man's job. 

As to other things - Sten is not really a good man to explain the Qun, which he admits himself. People under the Qun are not prepared to debate philosophy, unless it's their purpose - job. Arishok says it's not his role to educate people of Kirkwall, or even Hawke himself on that matter. The elven viddathari, who appears in Bull's personal quest says the same. Bull is probably more prepared than most, with him being a high-ranking Ben-Hassrath - but he still doesn't know everything. 

 

So no, BioWare has not changed the Qun, they're just revealing more facts about it. But it's a very coherent ideology.

[LinksOcarina]

I think there is also something missing in this conversation, and that is how belief is interpreted.

 

The Qun is a philosophical way of life, we all know that. But does everyone follow it the same way in the end, from the same position in the society? The impression I got from Iron Bull is that his views on his people are similar to Sten's, but different in it's point of view of the society. Bull was much more "world savvy" if that makes sense, hes been away from Par Vollen and Seheron for a long time, while Sten was a literal fish out of water. 

 

And that is just one aspect that separates them. I think people are too married to the concept of 'lore' being ironclad in this case. When someone talks about their people, their culture, it's always subjective and can change, because that is just the one persons interpretation and point of view. It's not even a complete picture in the end, and Sten and Iron Bull are both misleading in how it's represented. 

 

And as an side, Krem is a man for the record. I am not sure why the gender is coming up at all due to his status as being transgender.

[Rifneno]

Um...is SJW a poster on the forums with a bad rep?
 
<-confused

You ever see those idiots going around using made-up words like "pansexual" or "cis"? SJWs. The ones going around demanding games include plantkin (that's a person who identifies as a plant and I'm not kidding) and that the villain be TEH PATRIACHY? SJWs. They're a fun bunch (to lynch).

[Applepie_Svk]

just Social Justice Warriors crussade in changing the lore... 

[LinksOcarina]

just Social Justice Warriors crussade in changing the lore... 

 

Lore is never set in stone though, people who think it is really need to learn that fact. 

 

and I don't think it has anything to do with this in the end. 

[Rifneno]

I don't know, I think it's pretty silly that the Qun of all people have an enlightened philosophy on a matter that's still pretty taboo in the western world. I mean, I don't have any problem with Krem or his story. But it does worry me that BW may go more down the idiotic PC/SJW path. I mean. look at what that moron Anthony Burch is doing with Borderlands. That's what I'm afraid of. If this was the trans community is as far as this goes, that's great. They deserve some support. If we start reaching out to the otherkin community, I may toss my cookies.

But anyway, yeah. The Qun being understanding about this is more than bizarre.

[Draining Dragon]

They retconned it because it wasn't progressive enough.

[LinksOcarina]

I don't know, I think it's pretty silly that the Qun of all people have an enlightened philosophy on a matter that's still pretty taboo in the western world. I mean, I don't have any problem with Krem or his story. But it does worry me that BW may go more down the idiotic PC/SJW path. I mean. look at what that moron Anthony Burch is doing with Borderlands. That's what I'm afraid of. If this was the trans community is as far as this goes, that's great. They deserve some support. If we start reaching out to the otherkin community, I may toss my cookies.

But anyway, yeah. The Qun being understanding about this is more than bizarre.

 

i didn't even hear of otherkin until very recently.

 

That's all bullshit and I doubt people will take that seriously. 

[joejoe099]

Lore is never set in stone though, people who think it is really need to learn that fact. 

 

and I don't think it has anything to do with this in the end. 

 

lore¹

lôr/

noun

 

1. a body of traditions and knowledge on a subject or held by a particular group, typically passed from person to person by word of mouth.

 

Lore, by very definition, is history passed down by the mouth. You should not be able to simply change history because it tastes sour in yours. Of course, this only implies to what people write for OTHER people to say, not the character themselves.

[LinksOcarina]

 

lore¹

lôr/

noun

 

1. a body of traditions and knowledge on a subject or held by a particular group, typically passed from person to person by word of mouth.

 

Lore, by very definition, is history passed down by the mouth. You should not be able to simply change history because it tastes sour in yours. Of course, this only implies to what people write for OTHER people to say, not the character themselves.

 

 

History changes all the time though. What is passed down by word of mouth is part of that too. The telephone process causes changes to stories, anecdotes, traditions, and so forth into something else, something new.

 

When you actually study history, the trick is not to take it at face value, but to look at what is said, what is written, and the context of it. This is a more natural, realistic approach in the end.

[OHB MajorV]

Since sten is the new Arishok maybe his time with your world saving female warden influenced his view of women and the Qun. Congrats you helped shape the world into a more accepting place.

[Applepie_Svk]

Lore is never set in stone though, people who think it is really need to learn that fact. 

 

and I don't think it has anything to do with this in the end. 

 

Sten´s view of the Qun was simple, there was a natural order in which was society under the Qun working, there was only society as a whole and not an individuals within society. Everyone has its role and was working under this role without being able to choose, because everything was already choosen for him, but by granting to Krem right to choose something different than what she was meant to be she is breaking a lore. Joke is that story is telling you thru Krem, that she does not understand of what is to be a man, she thinks that by killing and doing a soldier´s work she´ll somehow became a man or she is somehow equal to man, but she could do the same in Thedas as a woman and she did not need to join to Qun for that.

 

Yet whole DA:I is kind of destroying mystery of the Qun by each second and it starts by the character creator when you can choose Quanari mage.

After what was shown and told by DA2, you wouldn´t step a 10 meters out of Haven without Qun-mage hunting comando in your ass...

 

But back to the Iron Bull, I found most of those conversations with him just so out of character, on the one hand he is spy of the Qun, full of how great Qun is and on the other he is full of how great is to live here - let´s drink, kill and f*ck.

[Rifneno]

Yet whole DA:I is kind of destroying mystery of the Qun by each second and it starts by the character creator when you can choose Quanari mage.
After what was shown and told by DA2, you wouldn´t step a 10 meters out of Haven without Qun-mage hunting comando in your ass...

The qunari mage we play has been tal-vashoth his/her enitre life. Never a follower of the qun, thus no handler. Stuff like this is why it was a brainmeltingly stupid idea to get rid of the word "kossith."

[Iakus]

 

But back to the Iron Bull, I found most of those conversations with him just so out of character, one the one hand he is spy of the Qun, full of how great Qun is and on the other he is full of how great is to live here - let´s drink, kill and f*ck.

Which is why I suspect iron Bull has "gone native" even more than he may realize.  He's been out of contact with Qunari society for a long timeand is starting to identify more with the rest of Thedas than his own society.

 

As for Sten, he had never ventured into southern lands before, and everything was still strange to him.

 

Also, just to throw something else out there, the Warden isn't the only one to whom he questions gender roles:

 

Sten: Why are you here?
Wynne: I beg your pardon?
Sten: Women are artisans, or merchants.  Or farmers, though you don't seem particularly... earthy.  They have no place in war.
Wynne: I can't even begin to tell you what's wrong with that idea.
Sten: It is not done.  There is no more to it.
Wynne: I do not understand.  Do the Qunari have no female mages?  No female warriors?
Sten: Of course not.  Why would our women wish to be men?
Wynne: Do you believe I wish to be a man?
Sten: You cannot wish to be a man.  It will lead you only to frustration.
Wynne: Hmm.  I believe this discussion does the same.  Let us speak no more of it, Sten.
Sten: As you wish.