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[Tevinter Soldier]

yes things have been retconned, 

leliana is alive no matter what you do.

Qunari were supposed to be "bronze giants" in gold armour.

Cullen's murderous rampage being erased

 

there's probably more, i'm not sure why people are so afraid that the Qun has undergone a retcon to not be as sexist, when it clearly has.

the Qun will go under many retcons in the future if they ever want to display them as anything other than the enemy.

as will the tevinter Imperium.

 

it's a basic trope that everyone uses, the fact is if the Qun was presented in the same way it originally was then the Qun has no redeeming factors.

as such there is a softening of the Qun up until now and there will be a continuing retcon's to make them more palatable in the future.

 

if its done right then you won't notice it will be tonal shifts that fit within the framework of the idea of the Qun rather than say ignore the fact that a third shock disintegrates you. 

 

we shouldn't be afraid of retcons, we should be afraid of ****** poor retcons that attempt no justification for the alteration, There's no point fighting retcon's they're going to happen, the Qunari were designed as an hostile, enemies with a militant expansionist outlook that would crush all opposition.

 

basically they were borg without the hive mind and electronics, they were the opposition of free will and self determination and that's it.

as such to understand the Qun to consider the "virtues" of the Qun the qun has to become less alien, less hostile and less cuntish.

 

hell we even have the Qunari offering an alliance, despite the fact that supposedly anybody who's not a Qunari is a dumb "Bas" that needs to be "taught" at sword point. suggesting the Qun can see other ways of life as equals, undermines the point of the Qun. (which teaches there's only one way to do things, anything that isn't the Qun is wrong and backwards) 

 

So yes women being allowed to fight is a retcon just like leliana being alive just like the Qunari doing away with their heavy armour and any other retcon in the game. if its a good retcon then like armour issue it's addressed with good logic like adjusting to their environment.

 

If its half assed it will be lelianas alive cause .... magic ashes/the maker/just a flesh wound reasons! 

[Rifneno]

OMG, I forgot all about Cullen's murderous rampage.

[Draining Dragon]

History changes all the time though. What is passed down by word of mouth is part of that too. The telephone process causes changes to stories, anecdotes, traditions, and so forth into something else, something new.
 
When you actually study history, the trick is not to take it at face value, but to look at what is said, what is written, and the context of it. This is a more natural, realistic approach in the end.

History doesn't change. It's always constant.

What changes is what people say about history.

There's an important distinction.

[joejoe099]

wait, Cullen had a rampage? When?

[LinksOcarina]

History doesn't change. It's always constant.

What changes is what people say about history.

There's an important distinction.

 

That's what I essentially said, dude.

 

But history also changes as well at times because in the end, we don't know everything either.

 

For example, why do we focus on Athens or Sparta for the Greeks all the time? 

[Draining Dragon]

That's what I said, dude.

No, you said

History changes all the time

.

[Rifneno]

wait, Cullen had a rampage? When?

Back in vanilla DAO, if you saved the Circle and the PC was a mage so you could free the Circle at the end, Cullen would lose the few marbles he had left and start murdering random folk. He was just roaming the countryside killing people, was never caught. When DA2 was further along in development, that epilogue slide was quietly taken out in a patch.

[LinksOcarina]

No, you said.

 

Let me explain this once.

 

You are right essentially, but there is always something out there that changes history, and it's not just who is writing it.

 

The answer to my question above, why we focus on Athens or Sparta the most, is due to the fact that we found the most information about it, through archaeology, documentation, carbon-dating, and so forth. 

 

Now, if we find something that contradicts what we learn about Athens as being the exemplar of Greek culture, then our perceptions would change. We would have historians, philosophers talking about a different place in the end over Athens because of their importance in what they teach us.

 

That is how history changes, it's because what is set in stone is not necessarily in stone. It is always interpretation, even
"facts" like dates sometimes. 

[chomesoon74]

Sten from DA:O - That was before Bioware's official policy of pushing "alternative" lifestyles and making a big issue out of it.

 

It was just a matter of they wanted a transgender character like Krem and so they built Bull around the storyline they wanted. I was looking forward to a Qunari being in the inquisition. A Sten or a Arishok would bring a bad ass warrior to the team.  Very serious, stern, fierce, very loyal and intimidating warrior. Instead we got an unserious college bro type of character who hangs out with a "diverse" crowd of so-called warriors instead of bad ass warriors like Sten and the Arishok. Bull himself is supposed to be this tough warrior from the Qun and yet he has no discipline and really believes in nothing.  It was a major letdown.

 

Heaven forbid we would have had a character which look, spoke, and acted like the Arishok from DA2. It would have brought an interesting dialogue between the characters. But no, you cannot have anyone or any character dissent from the propaganda that was being pushed so therefore you get changed storylines that make no sense and a very boring and bland Qunari on your team.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Back in vanilla DAO, if you saved the Circle and the PC was a mage so you could free the Circle at the end, Cullen would lose the few marbles he had left and start murdering random folk. He was just roaming the countryside killing people, was never caught. When DA2 was further along in development, that epilogue slide was quietly taken out in a patch.

 

and the other side was he went nuts killing younglings but got caught and shipped to mage prison. either way he went nuts.

[KaiserShep]

I don't see what the big deal is. Contradiction and religion are not exactly strangers.

[Rifneno]

Heaven forbid we would have had a character which look, spoke, and acted like the Arishok from DA2.

Heaven forbid that indeed. I'd sooner team up with Hitler's ghost than a true qunari.

[Iakus]

 

It was just a matter of they wanted a transgender character like Krem and so they built Bull around the storyline they wanted. I was looking forward to a Qunari being in the inquisition. A Sten or a Arishok would bring a bad ass warrior to the team.  Very serious, stern, fierce, very loyal and intimidating warrior. Instead we got an unserious college bro type of character who hangs out with a "diverse" crowd of so-called warriors instead of bad ass warriors like Sten and the Arishok. Bull himself is supposed to be this tough warrior from the Qun and yet he has no discipline and really believes in nothing.  It was a major letdown.

 

The issue isn't Iron Bull's personality.  He's a burned-out Ben Hassrath with one foot out the door as far the Qun goes.  The issue is his belief that Krem would be accepted as a man under the Qun.

[TMA LIVE]

Keep in mind, Bull's Qun name is "Liar". So you could always look at it like that.

[Draining Dragon]

Let me explain this once.
 
You are right essentially, but there is always something out there that changes history, and it's not just who is writing it.
 
The answer to my question above, why we focus on Athens or Sparta the most, is due to the fact that we found the most information about it, through archaeology, documentation, carbon-dating, and so forth. 
 
Now, if we find something that contradicts what we learn about Athens as being the exemplar of Greek culture, then our perceptions would change. We would have historians, philosophers talking about a different place in the end over Athens because of their importance in what they teach us.
 
That is how history changes, it's because what is set in stone is not necessarily in stone. It is always interpretation, even
"facts" like dates sometimes.

Our perception of history changes. History itself never changes.

If we find out that we had a date wrong, then we aren't changing history by correcting it. History was always the new date, we just were wrong about it.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

IMO it's simple, under the Qun Krem, is seen as a man. Bull says so "He IS a man." So that tells me the Qunari look at the person, not the body. So a F to M trans is a man to them, same as a M to F would be a woman despite being in a male body. They are treated as thier mental gender, not thier physical one.

[o Ventus]

The "need" of the Temassrans is no longer clear. Sten said it was to teach them their place in the world, Bull implies it is to basically be the Nannies and sex "healers"

The Tamassrans have more than one function. They are priests, nannies, and "healers". Bull says the same thing of the Ben-Hassrath. The BH's are both city guards and spies.

[Rifneno]

and the other side was he went nuts killing younglings but got caught and shipped to mage prison. either way he went nuts.

Ooooh, ooooh, and remember when giddy fangirls asked if there any chance the female Amell mage that you can pick as the PC could have wound up with Cullen in an alternate world type of dealie, and she heavily implied the only way he'd get involved with her was if he raped and killed her? Man, pre-DAI Cullen sure was a crazy bastard.

But yet, still all these fangirls. Someone tell me again how men are the only ones who think with their genitals so I can have a good laugh.

[kyles3]

Sten from DA:O - That was before Bioware's official policy of pushing "alternative" lifestyles and making a big issue out of it.

 

How are they pushing anything on anyone? You don't have to talk to Krem even once if you don't want to.

[LinksOcarina]

Our perception of history changes. History itself never changes.

If we find out that we had a date wrong, then we aren't changing history by correcting it. History was always the new date, we just were wrong about it.

 

That is semantic though. It's like asking "if a tree falls into the woods does it make a sound." 

 

It doesn't matter if it does, the fact is we didn't hear it which is why it changes our perception, because the sound itself can change depending on how it falls.

 

We only make the best guess in the end regarding that sound if we don't hear it, and even if we have it confirmed, that sound can still change. 

 

Still, the point I make I feel still stands, and in relation to Dragon Age, the lore is not set in stone either. 

[Heimdall]

Not really sure how Sten and Iron Bull contradict one another. Krem is able to perform tasks the Qun assigns to men purely because Krem is a man in the eyes of the Qun. A woman can't be a warrior unless she identifies as a man and lives every aspect of her life as a man (Save for if she is called upon to reproduce, I assume). Sten is perplexed because the Warden is a warrior, yet clearly identifies and acts as a woman.

It all makes sense as long as you accept that the Qunari concept of man and woman is about more than the plumbing.

Where's the contradiction?

[joejoe099]

Ooooh, ooooh, and remember when giddy fangirls asked if there any chance the female Amell mage that you can pick as the PC could have wound up with Cullen in an alternate world type of dealie, and she heavily implied the only way he'd get involved with her was if he raped and killed her? Man, pre-DAI Cullen sure was a crazy bastard.

But yet, still all these fangirls. Someone tell me again how men are the only ones who think with their genitals so I can have a good laugh.

 

The worst part is, it's all the hair. Nothing else about the guy.

[Kantr]

Bioware does have every right to change the Qun if they want to. But I dont see any inconsitencies between what Sten says and Bull says.

[Massadonious1]

All of this discussion of the Qun is fascinating, but some of you really just need to stop masking it as such and admit you're a bigot already.

[CIA]

All of this discussion of the Qun is fascinating, but some of you really just need to stop masking it as such and admit you're a bigot already.

I think labelling anyone you disagree with as a bigot is a sure fine way to ensure there is no praise and discussion about the game's approach to this sort of thing.

 

I liked Krem, and I liked the Qun in Inquisition. People's issues are with the differences between established lore and this, that isn't bigotry IMO.