646 réponses à ce sujet

[lLord Bhaal]

@ OP. Yes.

The Qun were once feared. They were like dragons amongst men!

Now they're just reskinned Nugs!

[Xiomara]

I always thought of the Qun as an oppressive, ethnocentric and closed-minded ideology, especially when it came to what roles it's followers performed. Sten didn't just tell my warden that women didn't fight in the Qun, he insisted that women who do fight must wish to be men and that cannot be because it would only lead to frustration. Even if you are unhappy with your assigned role it is your duty and you find pleasure in duty (the conversation about the farmer who wants to be a merchant). Krem's very existence seems to challenge this, and the Qunari haven't really been down with their beliefs being challenged in the past. I'm not saying that Bioware can't change their lore, or make the Qunari not such massive jerks but I'm not going to pretend that I don't think there's a bit of brushing under the carpet going on.

[kyles3]

I think labelling anyone you disagree with as a bigot is a sure fine way to ensure there is no praise and discussion about the game's approach to this sort of thing.

 

I liked Krem, and I liked the Qun in Inquisition. People's issues are with the differences between established lore and this, that isn't bigotry IMO.

 

I agree that just calling people bigots doesn't accomplish anything, but for some there's definitely more to it than preserving the integrity of the lore. Why else bring in terms like agenda and political correctness?

[Tevinter Soldier]

Ooooh, ooooh, and remember when giddy fangirls asked if there any chance the female Amell mage that you can pick as the PC could have wound up with Cullen in an alternate world type of dealie, and she heavily implied the only way he'd get involved with her was if he raped and killed her? Man, pre-DAI Cullen sure was a crazy bastard.

But yet, still all these fangirls. Someone tell me again how men are the only ones who think with their genitals so I can have a good laugh.

 

i don't even know what to say it that, i had no idea this scene existed. 

[TheRevanchist]

I agree that just calling people bigots doesn't accomplish anything, but for some there's definitely more to it than preserving the integrity of the lore. Why else bring in terms like agenda and political correctness?

 

Because to me, PC is BS. I have no issues with people being different. I think some people are stupid or weird, but it does not change anything in the long run. I will still talk to them like anyone else. Unless they are people like Sera, I don't deal with people like that. 

[TheRevanchist]

Ooooh, ooooh, and remember when giddy fangirls asked if there any chance the female Amell mage that you can pick as the PC could have wound up with Cullen in an alternate world type of dealie, and she heavily implied the only way he'd get involved with her was if he raped and killed her? Man, pre-DAI Cullen sure was a crazy bastard.

But yet, still all these fangirls. Someone tell me again how men are the only ones who think with their genitals so I can have a good laugh.

 

I always wondered this as well. I never once understood the Cullen obsession. He was a horrible, despicable, disgusting human being in DAO frankly. Yes he gets all shy and crap with a female mage, but after that? total nutjob. 

 

And like it was already said, I can bet it's entirely the hair. It's rather sad really.

[kyles3]

Because to me, PC is BS. I have no issues with people being different. I think some people are stupid or weird, but it does not change anything in the long run. I will still talk to them like anyone else. Unless they are people like Sera, I don't deal with people like that. 

 

What are you calling BS, though? What, exactly, has BioWare done that is politically correct and is thus BS?

[joejoe099]

What are you calling BS, though? What, exactly, has BioWare done that is politically correct and is thus BS?

 

Suddenly making the Qun accept nonbelievers existing, and defying its 'you were born, selected for a job, and duty will be your happiness' mentality. it'd be a lot more fun and at least interesting to interact with such a thing, since no one has the nards to make something like that.

[Rifneno]

i don't even know what to say it that, i had no idea this scene existed. 

There's no scene. It was just fangirls asking a question of Cullen's writer, and the writer giving them a rather unexpected answer.

I always wondered this as well. I never once understood the Cullen obsession. He was a horrible, despicable, disgusting human being in DAO frankly. Yes he gets all shy and crap with a female mage, but after that? total nutjob. 
 
And like it was already said, I can bet it's entirely the hair. It's rather sad really.

He's not exactly better in DA2 either. People think his display at the end with Meredith was something special, but I think it's very possible he was just protecting his own skin. He went along with the annulment as long as he only had to fight mages that he could kill easily. When Meredith asked him to throw away his life fighting Hawke, that's when he suddenly develops a conscience. Yeah, nice try templar. I'm onto your cowardice.

But anyway, you can take Alrik's paperwork to him and discuss Alrik's "Tranquil Solution". If you bring it to Elthina, she makes it clear she vehemently opposed the idea. Cullen... he skirts around saying whether he supported it, but the conversation heavily implies that he did indeed support the idea. Or at the very least, he didn't see a big problem with it. He actually whined that mages who oppose tranquility "want no safeguards on them at all". I wanted to stab him right then and there.

The Cullen in Inquisition is a completely different person than the monster that we met in Origins and 2.

[LinksOcarina]

There's no scene. It was just fangirls asking a question of Cullen's writer, and the writer giving them a rather unexpected answer.


He's not exactly better in DA2 either. People think his display at the end with Meredith was something special, but I think it's very possible he was just protecting his own skin. He went along with the annulment as long as he only had to fight mages that he could kill easily. When Meredith asked him to throw away his life fighting Hawke, that's when he suddenly develops a conscience. Yeah, nice try templar. I'm onto your cowardice.

But anyway, you can take Alrik's paperwork to him and discuss Alrik's "Tranquil Solution". If you bring it to Elthina, she makes it clear she vehemently opposed the idea. Cullen... he skirts around saying whether he supported it, but the conversation heavily implies that he did indeed support the idea. Or at the very least, he didn't see a big problem with it. He actually whined that mages who oppose tranquility "want no safeguards on them at all". I wanted to stab him right then and there.

The Cullen in Inquisition is a completely different person than the monster that we met in Origins and 2.

 

Why is this bad though? He even says in Inquisition he is trying to change. 

[Iakus]

Not really sure how Sten and Iron Bull contradict one another. Krem is able to perform tasks the Qun assigns to men purely because Krem is a man in the eyes of the Qun. A woman can't be a warrior unless she identifies as a man and lives every aspect of her life as a man (Save for if she is called upon to reproduce, I assume). Sten is perplexed because the Warden is a warrior, yet clearly identifies and acts as a woman.

It all makes sense as long as you accept that the Qunari concept of man and woman is about more than the plumbing.

Where's the contradiction?

What's confusing is that Sten also tells the Warden (and Wynne, and Leliana, I believe) that "wishing to be a man" is pointless and only leads to frustration.

 

Which suggests that to the Qunari, it seems that "dangly bits" are an important part to being male.

[kyles3]

Suddenly making the Qun accept nonbelievers existing, and defying its 'you were born, selected for a job, and duty will be your happiness' mentality. it'd be a lot more fun and at least interesting to interact with such a thing, since no one has the nards to make something like that.

 

I don't see anything as having suddenly changed. I see more qunari culture being exposed gradually as time goes by. I don't see it being treated any differently than, say, elven culture. One game shows you a little bit, the next one a little more, and by the third your picture of what that culture is has changed significantly. 

[Pewps]

I always thought of the Qun as an oppressive, ethnocentric and closed-minded ideology, especially when it came to what roles it's followers performed. Sten didn't just tell my warden that women didn't fight in the Qun, he insisted that women who do fight must wish to be men and that cannot be because it would only lead to frustration. Even if you are unhappy with your assigned role it is your duty and you find pleasure in duty (the conversation about the farmer who wants to be a merchant). Krem's very existence seems to challenge this, and the Qunari haven't really been down with their beliefs being challenged in the past. I'm not saying that Bioware can't change their lore, or make the Qunari not such massive jerks but I'm not going to pretend that I don't think there's a bit of brushing under the carpet going on.

 

This is exactly it. Don't get me wrong, Krem is a great character and I felt BioWare made him with tact and care. But they could have also done this without ruining the consistency of the Qunari. Sten puts it in black and white terms. If Iron Bull's "Aqun-Athlok" existed in DA:O, Sten would have never have brought up the topic in banter. If he had seen a woman in a combat role, he would have automatically assumed she/he was aqun-athlok and treated her/him as such, not openly challenge them. 

 

When we first talk to Iron Bull in Haven, he talks about how he doesn't think much about how the rest of the world would do under the rule of the Qun, combine that with the fact he turned himself in to the reeducators, and it's pretty clear that he has some misgivings about the Qun. I feel like BioWare could have really capitalized on this arc by having the Qun unfavorable to people who fall into the Aqun-Athlok category, with Krem as the focal point of his misgivings. 

[unclee]

This is exactly it. Don't get me wrong, Krem is a great character and I felt BioWare made him with tact and care. But they could have also done this without ruining the consistency of the Qunari. Sten puts it in black and white terms. If Iron Bull's "Aqun-Athlok" existed in DA:O, Sten would have never have brought up the topic in banter. If he had seen a woman in a combat role, he would have automatically assumed she/he was aqun-athlok and treated her/him as such, not openly challenge them. 

 

When we first talk to Iron Bull in Haven, he talks about how he doesn't think much about how the rest of the world would do under the rule of the Qun, combine that with the fact he turned himself in to the reeducators, and it's pretty clear that he has some misgivings about the Qun. I feel like BioWare could have really capitalized on this arc by having the Qun unfavorable to people who fall into the Aqun-Athlok category, with Krem as the focal point of his misgivings. 

 

All this is assuming we are meant to see Sten as a 100% factual narrator on topics of the Qun. I see a lot of people saying "Bioware changed the Qun because Sten said this!" but the problem with that is we're never told that Sten is 100% correct. The problem with taking what Sten says as law is that we just don't know enough about the Qun (even with the WoT book) to make a judgement. Perhaps Sten's role in the Qun is exactly how he said it in Origins: very black and white. We don't know enough about them to say that other roles in the Qun aren't less black and white.

 

I'm not saying one way or another that Bioware changed the Qun, but we can't really say that Sten is the be-all-end-all on the Qun.

[Applepie_Svk]

Keep in mind, Bull's Qun name is "Liar". So you could always look at it like that.

 

So in the end, when Krem went to Par Vollen or whatever is the Quanari mainland she might aswell end up in kitchen or as a seller at fish market... lol good to know that Bull is such a troll, that reminds me these muslim guys conscripting fighters for jihad and 72 virgins.

[LinksOcarina]

So....what about Tallis then?

 

Just a thought, but she is a member of the Qun, and is a woman who fights.

[KaiserShep]

All this is assuming we are meant to see Sten as a 100% factual narrator on topics of the Qun. I see a lot of people saying "Bioware changed the Qun because Sten said this!" but the problem with that is we're never told that Sten is 100% correct. The problem with taking what Sten says as law is that we just don't know enough about the Qun (even with the WoT book) to make a judgement. Perhaps Sten's role in the Qun is exactly how he said it in Origins: very black and white. We don't know enough about them to say that other roles in the Qun aren't less black and white.

 

I'm not saying one way or another that Bioware changed the Qun, but we can't really say that Sten is the be-all-end-all on the Qun.

 

I consider this the same as I would a population of believers in, say, Catholicism. Gather a bunch of Catholics together, and you're not going to get the same exact religion out of all of them. It seems sensible enough to me that even the social mores of the rigid dreadnought of philosophy that is the Qun would not be totally uniform.

[JimBlandings]

BioWare don't care a jot about their lore and they will stop at nothing to pander to their SJW and LGTBXZOPOGKSD!"% fans.

 

Listen, and understand: they can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until good writing is dead.

[Heimdall]

What's confusing is that Sten also tells the Warden (and Wynne, and Leliana, I believe) that "wishing to be a man" is pointless and only leads to frustration.
 
Which suggests that to the Qunari, it seems that "dangly bits" are an important part to being male.

Not necessarily.

"Wishing to be a man" is pointless if one still identifies as a woman, as Sten observes of the Warden and Wynne. Their problem according the Qun is that they are women trying to fill a man's role as women. That's futility in Sten's eyes. They are women wishing to be men. By contrast, Krem is a man acting and living as a man, having discarded his original gender.

[KaiserShep]

So....what about Tallis then?

 

Just a thought, but she is a member of the Qun, and is a woman who fights.

 

Something something something SJW, something something something complete!

[Applepie_Svk]

So....what about Tallis then?

 

Just a thought, but she is a member of the Qun, and is a woman who fights.

 

she was also retcon... it´s just about pushin further and further, BioWare had a chance to realize a failures in their path yet failed to do that.

 

I do remember Sarkeesian was judging DA:O based upon the one scene of alienage, despite that it was more about racism and not about misogyny at all, there is lot of SJW´s calling some games sexists, yet failing to realize that there are estabilished lore elements. It´s like to start rewriting a book of history just because you don´t like unequal treatment which happened in the past.

[TheRevanchist]

So....what about Tallis then?

 

Just a thought, but she is a member of the Qun, and is a woman who fights.

 

Tallis is Ben Hassrath, not the Antaam.

[LinksOcarina]

Something something something SJW, something something something complete!

 

Ah.

 

that clears it up I guess?

[LinksOcarina]

Tallis is Ben Hassrath, not the Antaam.

 

I know, that was kind of what I was alluding to. The Ben-Hassarath may have different views than the Antaam.

[Massadonious1]

#NotYourBenHassrath's