646 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

I'll see it eventually. My next playthrough (finished the first a few days ago) will be the completionist one.

Let's just say they aren't as laid back about gender roles in combat as Iron Bull is.

[Aren]

Maybe we can use as reference the conversation between Female hawke and the Arishok and see his point of view, i cannot remember any female Qunari among his army.

[scruffylad]

As a practical matter, I suspect the distinction is that when Sten was introduced in DAO, the Qunari weren't well fleshed out. He was the "hulking warrior from a weird culture who's a fish out of water" character, and his lines about gender roles reflected that. I wonder how much of that was about playing off on the fact that DAO was a pseudo-medieval setting, but with clear modern sensibilities (e.g., women in your party who go butt-kicking for goodness!)

 

The Qunari have generally been portrayed as a pretty totalitarian society. Titles instead of personal names, submission to the Qun, secret police and reeducation services, etc. Sten and the Arishok reflected that rigid totalitarian background. Conversely, Tallis and Iron Bull are people who don't necessarily always fit in just right with that regimentation. But that makes them good at infiltration in the rest of Thedas, so that's the use that the Qun has for them. (Seriously, can you imagine Sten trying to "blend in" culturally and be a spy???) And those outlier characters are useful, because few real societies are Sten-like monoliths, and Tallis and Bull illustrate that. The Qun is a belief system, not a borg-tastic hive mind.

 

In DAO, the Qun wasn't very developed, and mainly just served as background for why Sten was so strange. As the world has been more developed through games, books, etc., the Qun has had bits added to it. Some of that is just questions they probably never bothered to think through back when they were writing Sten's dialogue in DAO. And some of it is that as events have happend out in our society (which BioWare is a part of, and which will be buying and playing the game) these questions have come up. Alternate genders were around five years ago, but in the last year or two you've seen that rise to a higher level of broad cultural consciousness--sort of a cultural critical mass. And so BioWare's writers are thinking of those questions more, and adjusting the game as they come up with answers. (Which is how, in ME1 m-Shep is straight and Kaidan is romancable by f-Shep only, but by ME3, m-Shep and Kaidan can have sexytimes.)

 

Is Bull's acceptance of Krem (and supposed acceptance by the Qun) a retcon? Possibly. Sten had clear views on gender roles, and there didn't seem to be much nuance or flexibility to them. (Then again, detailed answers weren't his strong suit, from what I recall.) You could argue that transgendered folks were always an unspoken exception, but I doubt they were thinking of that back when they wrote DAO ("let's have Sten's inflexible views on gender roles have an exception for transgenered people--but let's not tell anyone!")

 

Then again, real societies have variations within them, and change over time. In DAO, the Templars weren't too bad. (My best bud Alistair used to be one of them, after all.) By DA2, they were pretty much "the bad guy." In DAI, you get to pick if you side with Templars or Mages. Even then, you get layers. Vivienne's perspective on the circles is interesting, and she pretty much says that Kirkwall was the exception, not the rule. I imagine off in Par Vollen, some Qunari are firm and unwavering like Sten, while others are more like Bull - wondering if they should turn themselves in for being badthinkers, or if they should keep mouthing the correct words in public while thinking other things inside their own heads. There's also the question of the flexibility of the Qun itself - there has to be some ability to adapt it, but can it be modified as well? Can it change over time? Even if they say the Qun is eternal and unchanging, is it really? ("We've always been at war with Eastasia.")

[xnarcosysx]

How much does the Qun conflict with the belief in the maker and andraste? Opposites, a lot, just some areas? Just thought of making a qunaru warrior for my next play through and want to be the cocky "I'm the herald" attitude but does that mean my character doesnt follow the qun?

I get the just of it and looked into and don't see any glaring conflicts

[Iakus]

How much does the Qun conflict with the belief in the maker and andraste? Opposites, a lot, just some areas? Just thought of making a qunaru warrior for my next play through and want to be the cocky "I'm the herald" attitude but does that mean my character doesnt follow the qun?

I get the just of it and looked into and don't see any glaring conflicts

The Qun rejects the idea of gods of any kind.

 

That said, a qunari Inquisitor was raised Vashoth and thus isn't bound to the Qun at all

[Lenimph]

I think Tallis and Iron bull would make a really cute couple; twisting and molding the Qun for it to serve their own purposes and desires

[JimBlandings]

You can really tell a lot of things about somehow by how they talk about Krem. The ones who keep saying "she" are people to be avoided

 

Yes people who live in reality and use science and rational thought should be avoided instead of the deluded ones working on fairy dust.

[myahele]

Thing is the Qun can easily be twisted to suit the writers needs. Wasn't it said they allow for exceptions if x person is very good at x job?

[AEve1]

Just because the Qun acknowledges the existence of trans individuals doesn't make it any more progressive than the rest of Thedas, just for the record. It's perfectly possible to have a society with very strict gender roles that doesn't necessarily base those gender roles on physical sex organs.

 

There are real world precedents for this kind of strict gender role/non-binary gender identity society. Sworn Virgins can be formally recognized as male in Albania and have the right to own land and inherit, and get treated just like men socially. There are also fa'afafine in Samoa, who are societally treated as women, trained in women's work, and who often have sex with men (self-identified straight men), but not other fa'afafine. Then there are hijras in India, kathoeys in Thailand, Blackfoot ninauposkitzipxpe, even eunuchs in Ancient Greece and Rome. In all of these cases, people who identify as women are treated differently than people who identify as men, and if you leave your defined societal box you find yourself in trouble. Acceptance of one group doesn't lead to some sort of gender-neutral paradise, and we shouldn't expect it to in the case of the Qun either.

[Hair Serious Business]

Bull explains it, saying that if a woman wants to fight within the Qun and is suited for it she effectively BECOMES a man within the eyes of their society. 

 

...now you know how Sten saw your female Warden lol

(I guess this also explains why there was no romance with Sten...because he saw you as man xD)

[Applepie_Svk]

...now you know how Sten saw your female Warden lol

(I guess this also explains why there was no romance with Sten...because he saw you as man xD)

 

Nah, he was conflicted about you - as about woman trying to be man, which is implying that sex is binding you to your future role within Qun society. He had even some strange banter with Morrigan.

[daveliam]

 

This. A female Warden still acts like a female, who just happens to fight. Thus, the Qun sees the female Warden as a female who's trying to do a male's job. Krem on the other hand, acts like a guy all the way, and thus is a man under the Qun.

 

This is how I understood it as well.  You have two situations:

 

1.)  A strict follower of the Qun being presented with a biological woman who identifies as a woman and lives her life as a woman, but performs the "job" of a man (using Qun standards).  This confuses Sten because it conflicts with the Qun teachings.

 

then

 

2.)  A very liberal follower of the Qun being presented with a biological woman who identifies as a man and lives his life as a man and performs the "job" of a man.  Bull's got no conflict with this.  Krem is a man from his (and Krem's) viewpoints, so it's all good.

 

I don't see a major retcon happening here. 

[BioWareMod03]

Allan has made it clear in the Krem thread that endless pronoun debate will not be allowed to keep derailing threads. Please keep this thread on track.

[atamajakki]

Warriors are male to the Qunari, hence Sten's confusion with characters who both fought and insisted on being female. Krem is a warrior, which makes him a male in the eyes of the Qun; his biological sex has nothing to do with it. People are not wasted under the Qun, and it makes more sense to assign them the gender associated wit their skills rather than force an individual into a profession they have no skill with in the name of gender norms.

[joejoe099]

You can't use iron bull as a good source of the actual Qun either since he's so ready to just leave his qunari brothers to die for the people he went native for. Sten and the arishok, two pure, barely altered by going native sources of the Qun seem the obvious type to put their job over friendship, every time, yet Bull was ready to let a dreadnaught die to save the chargers.

[Dutch]

Bioware, the king(or queens) of retconning!

[Dutch]

Krem's a guy? You mean she's changed down there? Blood magic?

[Nightdragon8]

Why does Sten question the Wardens sexuality at all then? He is not a Temassran right? He is confused, and seeks clarification. How to do you that? by asking questions. If this is not a blatant Retcon then Sten should be very much aware of this entire concept, and not look at your Warden like she is a damn alien. 

who cares if its a retcon or not? not the first one in the DA universe to happen. and wont be the last.

[o Ventus]

Krem's a guy? You mean she's changed down there? Blood magic?

I hope, for your sake, that this is painfully unfunny sarcasm.

[joejoe099]

Krem's a guy? You mean she's changed down there? Blood magic?

 

talk like that is going to get this thread shut down, and i actually like what's being brought up here. It's off topic as well, so please stop. This isn't about krem.

[Dutch]

No. Krem "identifies" as a male, so Bioware considers Krem a male.

Any more discussion will be deleted by the mods, so just leave it at that. Here, at least.

Really? I guess I should have talked to her more.

[Jester]

There's one thing more suprising than Sten criticizing female Warden for "trying to fill man's role". 

Why does he say the same to Leliana? She is basically the human equivalent of Ben-Hassrath. A Bard. A spy. A Chantry sister.

 

Leliana is not of the Qun - but if she was, her role would be Ben-Hassrath.

 

This proves, the Sten is not very knowledgable about the Qun, about the world and his views are not flexible in the slightest. 

Which is alright - he specifically says he's not an authority on the subject.