116 réponses à ce sujet

[CreepingShadow]

I don't think she's necessarily better than Vivienne. I think Vivienne continues the Chantry as before (which I LIKED. I'm not Anders. I hate that everything has fallen apart). In addition, she provides a good example for mages. So it's not like mages totally lose. She's a living example of exemplary and what they can aspire to. Kind of like a good mage Warden. This will do good for mages in the longrun, they'll get less restrictions, and more will be able to work in the Chantry if they wish. It's radical and conservative in ways I'm happy with.

Cass preserves the Chantry as well, (which I agree with) only Leliana dismantles it and rebuilds it from the ground up, Cass also preserves the circles, but she's sympathetic to the mage's grievances, and finally she wants to ease non-humans into the Chantry hierarchy but won't do it overnight. All in all she's the compassionate (unlike Vivienne), but not reckless (Leliana) choice,

[Cat Fancy]

I think a lot of mages will be dead, if you didn't side with them to begin with. While if you do side, they're under your control. Other than that, you'll have stragglers and isolationists.. as before.

 

Well, I mean, if you didn't side with mages from the beginning, you probably aren't looking at Leliana as the Divine. If you do side with them, (as allies) you're throwing the Inquisition's weight behind their political goals. (to some extent, anyway) If you conscript them, then yes, they're under the Inquisition's control. My point is that, at the time a new Divine is chosen, a system in which mages aren't supervised by templars/the Chantry can be the reality on the ground. And that reality can be reinforced by both the new Divine and the Inquisition.

 

My point was, (not necessarily arguing against you, just repeating myself) if you actually want free mages, I'd say Leliana is your best bet. If you don't, she isn't "too much, too soon," she's just "too much." Thedas's race issues are bad, but I'm not sure admitting other races to priesthood is really too radical for the populace, even if humans don't like it much.

[frylock23]

@ Street Magic, I get that Kirkwall is an extreme example, but even in the real world, it has been shown that when you set one group up as jailors over another, they start to become abusive over time. Power corrupts and you've given them complete power. The Templars have complete power over mages, and in a lot of places, this becomes abusive. Cass will remove the policing/jailing aspect off the Templars making them an order dedicated to duties more like rogue mage hunting as their protective duty. At the very least, if the Templars are working in the Circle, it sounds like Cass will have them answering to the mages who should be governing themselves.

[Bucky]

  At any rate, I don't know how pro-mage freedom people get Vivienne, or how people opposed to that get Leliana... stop being so agreeable in companion conversations, I guess.

 

After I brought her the Wyvern heart, she introduced me to some people in her next cut scene conversation.  The implication was that she had just tricked the Inquisitor into appearing as if he supporter her candidacy.

 

At least that's how I read it.

 

(Although my Inquisitor was non-commital on mage freedom)

[Cat Fancy]

I got that scene, too. But I was openly pro-mage freedom and never talked about Vivienne as a possibility for Divine in conversation with her. I just politely dodged her questions about that. (still got a war table mission to support her, which scared me a little. I never got one for Leliana... perhaps because she was the clear frontrunner in my PT?)

[thesuperdarkone2]

Apparently a rumor in Val Royeaux told me that the clerics were apparently favoring Leliana for me. Is this a indicator of who is likely to become divine in a playthrough? Has anyone gotten other rumors about the other candidates?

[Hobbes]

Cass to me always seemed like the better option, like the best of both worlds.

Leliana became the Divine for me, I always thought her views were a little too radical.  I was waiting for an option to support Cass on the Wartable, but nothing like that ever popped up for me.  I thought I was agreeing with Viv at one point that Cass should be the Divine but I guess I must have zoned out at one point because her mission for support popped up instead lol.

[Celtic Latino]

Cassandra is probably the best conservative option and unhardened Leliana is the best liberal option. Vivienne is too ruthless and backed more by fear and power than actually caring about leadership and hardened Leliana is basically a human female Bhelen, progressive but tyrannical and bloodthirsty.

[Bucky]

"What the Chantry needs is more elves and dwarves . . . and dead people!"

[PrinceLionheart]

I'm thinking between the three, Cassandra's chantry is the more likely to last in the long term. Leiliana's changes are far to idealistic and Vivienne's changes are doomed to eventually repeat the same conflict.

[Xilizhra]

Leliana is the only option for me. The others are just retreads of the same crap.

[Cat Fancy]

All three Divines are troubled by resistance it's not clear they can handle in the long run. This problem isn't avoided by backing Cassandra. (not saying that's the only reason people choose her, but it is coming up) Myself, I don't worry about epilogues or flavor text in future games. The writers can and will capriciously change their minds about how things work out. Remember when Cullen became a serial killer after Origins? And I think Harrowmont popped up alive in Inquisition? Maybe I misread(/did not even attempt to read) the Orzammar flavor text. I must admit, I do not care about what is happening in Orzammar.

 

Follow ur hearts~

 

Back Sera for Divine. (please don't)

[King Dragonlord]

Yes, Cass has the sensible approach. It sounds good on paper. But then think of the actual day-to-day duties. That's not going to make her happy.. sitting in a chair and waving at people, doling out boons, and having people serve her. Then going to sleep. Then waking up again and repeating. She'll start getting ansty or wanting to punch people. And if she doesn't want to punch them, that means she's changed.. and stops becoming the character I wanted in the first place. What's the point of that? I want Cass. Not "Cass as she could be".

You know who actually did get antsy and left the Chantry? Lelianna. 

 

Her ideals aside, she's not stable enough to be a Divine. Seeks the chantry as a refuge then leaves because she's bored with it. Broken and jaded following the death of the last divine confiding in a prisoner she just met about how bitter she is about all the crap the Maker flings at her. She's tough enough for the spy work she's doing but not stable enough or dependable enough in a role like the Divine. Cassandra is. 

 

And the Chantry doesn't need an elitist bully like Vivienne either. Someone who pretty much gets off on tearing people down, either physically or emotionally. 

[frylock23]

Ah, but they Mages are self-governing in the Circle, and the Circles are still under the auspices of the Chantry. So the mages are not entirely free. They just have the autonomy to more or less oversee their lives as people who have a dangerous gift that needs training rather than people who are treated as guilty until ... well, guilty as soon as their gift manifests.

 

Is there some reason why the mages within the Circle shouldn't be allowed to govern their own affairs rather than be treated as if they aren't people capable of living their own lives which is what they were before? Take the children, train them, and when they prove themselves let them go home for visits. If they really prove themselves, let them go home to serve if they dedicate themselves to the Chantry or some other type of service - say being village healer.

 

But bottling them up in the Circles because you are afraid of what they might do makes no sense and only puts them under that much more pressure to crack. It also wastes a potentially very valuable resource.

[Dova]

That's normal, I guess. She's the last person to have a conversation with the Inquisitor about this, even though she and Cassandra are mentioned as mentioned as candidates first.

 

That's pretty bad. Of course I'm glad I didn't put her up anyway after hearing it.

Inquisitor: "You'd be a great divine!"

Me IRL: LOLOLOLNOPE. 

[Hornless Qunari/Human DPS]

The Chantry Needs Change Viv is the best choice.

[Xilizhra]

You know who actually did get antsy and left the Chantry? Lelianna. 

 

Her ideals aside, she's not stable enough to be a Divine. Seeks the chantry as a refuge then leaves because she's bored with it. Broken and jaded following the death of the last divine confiding in a prisoner she just met about how bitter she is about all the crap the Maker flings at her. She's tough enough for the spy work she's doing but not stable enough or dependable enough in a role like the Divine. Cassandra is. 

 

And the Chantry doesn't need an elitist bully like Vivienne either. Someone who pretty much gets off on tearing people down, either physically or emotionally. 

She's perfectly stable if unhardened, and both a better leader and better with people than Cassandra is. In addition to having actual plans for change as opposed to just painting over the same terrible system.

[King Dragonlord]

She's perfectly stable if unhardened, and both a better leader and better with people than Cassandra is. In addition to having actual plans for change as opposed to just painting over the same terrible system.

 

Better leader? Than the woman who took the initiative to start the Inquisition? Please. In theory Lelianna is in charge of people but when do we ever actually see her do anything remotely leader like.

 

Don't get me wrong. Lelianna is a strong capable woman in many respects. She's versatile. But its only in this game that she even begins to show any evidence that she's grown up enough to be in charge of a small team, let alone an entire religion.

 

Cassandra on the other hand holds to the principles of the Andrastian faith while showing constant willingness to stand up to the bullshit.

 

And actually, I gotta make one change to the previous page.

 

1) Mother Giselle

2) Cassandra

 

Because while Cassandra would be a better pick than Lelianna, they're both better in their current positions than they'd be as divine. Give Cassandra ten more years and maybe she'd be a good fit. Lelianna? More like 30. But Giselle is ready now. She's compassionate, perceptive and inspiring. Who got that song going at the camp? Who knew it was time for that while the rest of us were squabbling? And we see the evidence that she'd be a reformer too with her softer views on mages. 

 

Bioware dropped the ball on this one and the more I think about it, the worse it looks. 

[Former_Fiend]

For me, personally, I've always felt that the best option was maintaining the templar/circle system, but with significant reforms. Purging the templars of corrupt elements, insuring that their focus is on protection and not hunting and capturing. Greater liberties for the mages, to be sure, but not the measure of autonomy that Leliana grants them. 

 

If your priorities are on mage freedom, then Leliana is your best option. Personally I don't believe her policies can actually hold long term in the political climate Bioware has created, but it's their story so what's possible depends on what they write on the page. By that token, I don't see Cassandra or Vienne's reforms as any more likely to end badly than Leliana's. 

 

The aspect of Leliana's reforms that I like is the racial equality. which is the only real thing that would make me consider her. But then, Cassandra claimed to want the same thing when talking to her, so it's possible that aspect of her reforms simply went without mention in the epilogue.

 

That being said, I actually went with Vivienne. While I personally don't like the woman, I think a moderate mage-Divine is going to do more for mage rights long term than Leliana's forced changes will, and she imposes what I consider to be the appropriate changes(tighter control of the templars, more freedoms for the mages) in the most controlled manner.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

And if you hate the chantry? No option to dissolve it?

[CreepingShadow]

And if you hate the chantry? No option to dissolve it?

No the closest thing to it is electing Leliana who pretty much makes it unrecognizable. I was suprised actually, I would have thought that would be a possible ending, along with maybe cause another schism ala the Protestant Reformaton.

[wright1978]

No the closest thing to it is electing Leliana who pretty much makes it unrecognizable. I was suprised actually, I would have thought that would be a possible ending, along with maybe cause another schism ala the Protestant Reformaton.

 

Think the reason they didn't would be due to the headache it would give them doing the next installment. As it is they can have chantry, and a divine Victoria and some ambient dialogue to show differences between Viv-Cass-Soft lel and hard lel.

[King Dragonlord]

Think the reason they didn't would be due to the headache it would give them doing the next installment. As it is they can have chantry, and a divine Victoria and some ambient dialogue to show differences between Viv-Cass-Soft lel and hard lel.

 

They could solve this by leaping forward a century or two. DnD does that with its settings with each edition. And Elder Scrolls has picked it up.