Screwed up? What Fiona did is the DA equivalent of Castro selling out to the USSR after the Cuban Revolution. It was a betrayal.
The choice of recruiting the Templars or Mages... it really isn't a statement on Mage freedom. It's about whom you think can help you close the breach. And also, there is a strong impetus to go to the Mages if you care about Ferelden, because you'd want to kick Tevinter out of there ASAP regardless of how much you care about the portion of mages at Redcliffe that decided to let them in.
Also. Time travel with Dorian. It's fun stuff.
As far as the side-topic of Mages goes, I'm of the mind that any reformed Circle system will once again degrade to abuses within the century, and more violent terrorist attacks, Tevinter incursions, blood magic and rampant abominations will follow. A few more Chantries will blow up. Another Uldred will rise. Another mother will keep their child hidden from the Templars instead of allowing them to be properly trained, and another situation like Redcliffe will happen.
So long as you attempt to impose that kind of forced re-location and restrict basic human things like being in relationships, where you can live, what your profession is, how you live out your days as a grown adult in control of your magic... those violent and extreme things will continue. The Circle system is a house of cards. It's blow down. You can put it back up again, but the winds of change are more like an oscillating fan. It'll spin right back around and blow things again and again. And far more often, now that the rebellion already came so far once.
Trying to forcefully defend the world from mages and protect the mages from the world causes more problems, more possessions and more death. More violence. Not less.
The only system that can last in the long-term is one where a mage can learn how to not become possessed, how not to blow people up accidentally. And then, go living in a little house with a wife and two kids near Denerim's market, working their trade as a cobbler like their father taught them.. They're just people, and if they can control themselves then they've a right to their own lives no matter what it is they do.
#LelianaIsRight
Not really. There has never been a (realistic) threat of the United States invading Cuba and killing every single Cuban. The mages in Redcliff on the other hand were fighting a battle for survival against an enemy who most of the time doesn't even accept surrender.
yeah, Vivienne'e Circle mages were slaughtered to a man........
Cassandra as Divine + Templars = Golden Age of Reform for Chantry.
Leliana as Divine + Mages = Circles with Autonomy, Things going great.
Easy Peasy, Lemon Squeasy.
Haven't gotten Cassandra as divine yet, but both Leliana and Vivienne result in a bloodbath. But I suspect that even with Cassandra, there will be violence. This is Thedas, after all, lol.
No it doesn't, because it's referencing an event that hasn't happened yet by the time you reach Redcliffe, and doesn't happen at all if you choose to do In Hushed Whispers.
Again, you're trying to make a statement no less asinine than "Clearly, all those who remain at Therinfal are there because they have no problems with corrupted Lyrium or serving ancient Magisters".
There's not a single person in that prison that was placed there for anything else.
The mages at Redcliff have an option. Stay and serve Tevinter or leave. Are there dangers in leaving, certainly, but it's still an option.
Therefore, if those who remain are not mages who decided working for Tevinter is preferable to the alternative, then what are they?
At least the Templars at Therinfal had no knowledge of the Red Lyrium and Corypheus and they did mount an organized resistance.
We don't know the reasons for everyone who is there. We know why the members of the Inquisition were these and we know there's a priest there for renouncing Corypheus but there are other prisioners such as that elven mage or the one sacrificed.
yeah freed mages worked absolute wonders in Tevinter
forgive the skepticism
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
yeah, Vivienne'e Circle mages were slaughtered to a man........
LOL
The choice of recruiting the Templars or Mages... it really isn't a statement on Mage freedom. It's about whom you think can help you close the breach. And also, there is a strong impetus to go to the Mages if you care about Ferelden, because you'd want to kick Tevinter out of their ASAP regardless of how much you care about the portion of mages at Redcliffe that decided to let them in.
Also. Time travel with Dorian. It's fun stuff.
As far as the side-topic of Mages goes, I'm of the mind that any reformed Circle system will once again degrade to abuses within the century, and more violent terrorist attacks, Tevinter incursions, blood magic and rampant abominations will follow. A few more Chantries will blow up. Another Uldred will rise. Another mother will keep their child hidden from the Templars instead of allowing them to be properly trained, and another situation like Redcliffe will happen.
So long as you attempt to impose that kind of forced re-location and restrict basic human things like being in relationships, where you can live, what your profession is, how you live out your days as a grown adult in control of your magic... those violent and extreme things will continue. The Circle system is a house of cards. It's blow down. You can put it back up again, but the winds of change are more like an oscillating fan. It'll spin right back around and blow things again and again. And far more often, now that the rebellion already came so far once.
Trying to forcefully defend the world from mages and protect the mages from the world causes more problems, more possessions and more death. More violence. Not less.
The only system that can last in the long-term is one where a mage can learn how to not become possessed, how not to blow people up accidentally. And then, go living in a little house with a wife and two kids near Denerim's market, working their trade as a cobbler. They're just people, and if they can control themselves then they've a right to their own lives no matter what it is they do.
#LelianaIsRight
This, plus Leliana lets other races become part of the chantry.
then why comment? Tp get a "rise out of people"
Because I pay the internet bill to speak my mind? I don't need the approval of others to do that.
In all honesty, a Chantry-Supervised Circle was *Always* going to lead to the whole powder-keg war.
Everything leads to war. The fact it took 1000+ years is a feat to brag about.
Most First/Senior Enchanters were Aequitarians anyways for pete's sake!
What does this have to do with anything?
Give Mages the Circles, sure. But Aequitarian's (The majority ruler of the Mage Fraternities) should govern them, Mages looking over other mages - so you don't get the Enchanter Orsino's covering up dangerous mages for fear of sparking Templar/Chantry ire.
That's what the Circles already were before everyone thought it'd be the best time to be stupid.
Think of someone like Irving, who was an exemplary Mage - whom Knight-Commander Gregior trusted the fate of the Entire Circle to, even he had to stoop to using you politically so that you guys could say "Nu uh, you Chantry
Pricksguys screwed up too", when he could have directly intervened before things got out of hand.
Irving already lead the Circle. Hell, he even could order Templars around. I seriously doubt you actually looked at any of this before writing this rant, no offense.
The Aequitarian's foremost beliefs are using Magic to help man - with or without Chantry supervision. (Such as Anders running his clinic Pre-Chant-Splosion.)
Lol, Aequitarians believe in cooperation. Anders is not an Aequitarian. They do not believe in ignoring the Chantry anymore than say, a Loyalist, which is why they are traditionally allied with them.
There are always going to be mages who default to Blood Magic and using their powers to harm people. But putting those ticking timebombs under the control of (More often than not) abusers, only makes things start to deteriorate faster, and generally to the point where the only intervention is Tranquility or death.
That's why they are traditionally put to death. For endangering literally everyone around them. Just like there will always be people who try to murder each other. We don't remove the federal government because of that.
Hell, Tranquility was a punishment developed *By* Mages, *For* Mages, to keep themselves and other's safe from the same people who'd readily side with Coryphi-fish.
Not really. It was a system designed to nutter mages. That's about it really. It also has some really cool side-effects for mundanes, but mages can go ahead and leave this claim to fame behind.
When you get Circles (Like Kirkwall) using it illegally to silence naysayers, on harrowed mages, and frankly having bad form of imprinting them with Chantry Sun brands on their foreheads. You know something is wrong.
Kirkwall is definitely a representative of the Circle system, despite all evidence and claims to the contrary.
Templars like Cullen, Bariss, and Gregoir are amazing examples of what their duty *Should* Be - but for every Cullen, Bariss and Gregoir, there seem to be ten Meredith's, Ser Alrik's, and Ser Kerass'.
ower corrupts, but absolute power (Divine right under the Chantry), corrupts Absolutely.
Not really. I also like how you pulled from only one group of people. By the way, Meredith was pretty ignorant of the Order, ruling the City and all, up until she went insane. That's an entirely different issue that has next to nothing with her view of mages.
Good thing neither actually have this power, if you spent the time to actually read the Navarran Accord codex.
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
yeah freed mages worked absolute wonders in Tevinter
forgive the skepticism
My opinion on Tevinter is "I'll reserve judgment". I really hope they're not the boogeyman Orlais and the southern Chantry make them out to be.
yeah freed mages worked absolute wonders in Tevinter
forgive the skepticism
And treating mages like prisoners worked so well in Kirkwall /s
forgive the skepticism
And treating mages like prisoners worked so well in Kirkwall /s
forgive the skepticism
A. Circle mages didn't start the uprising in Kirkwall, an abomination did
B. It can be put down
I see both positions.
In both cases, you have the leadership selling out their underlings. Fiona orchestrates the original vote more or less and does the Tevinter deal on her own, and the head of the Templar order is equally corrupted and pulls the underlings along in similar fashion.
Either way you jump, you wind up screwing the innocents who got pulled along by the course of events.
The way it winds up being presented in game, it falls to you to decide which is basically the best way to deal with the Tevinter problem at Redcliffe: Are there enough mages there sympathetic to make the large Templar force necessary, or are the mages largely unwilling thus making Leliana's route viable (i.e. cut off the head of the snake and all that)?
It falls to you to decide how your PC would play it, and in the end, you are going to screw over a LOT of innocents no matter how you go. It basically sucks! And it does make me wonder why you don't get to judge Fiona along with Alexius for her disastrous decisions. I'm sure there is a similar person on the Templar side although I haven't run it yet.
This, plus Leliana lets other races become part of the chantry.
I actually think this is a more important choice to the future of Thedas than the mage freedom one.
I think, given the ending of Inquisition, and the political situation across Thedas... an Elven uprising is coming. A big one. Human dominance is about to get kicked in the balls.
If the new Divine extends an olive branch to the Elven people now, maybe makes some extreme steps torwards ending the Alienage system, then perhaps the Chantry won't get caught in the cross-hairs during that oncoming war. Perhaps instead they will be seen as a newly reformed ally, if the elven side can look past the second Exalted March.
It also might attract more moderate city Elves to a calmer side of things, instead of encouraging them to side with blood-lusted folk.
And I'm sure all the scumbag Templars that liked abusing mages are suddenly going to change and I'm sure none of the issues that caused the rebellion are suddenly going to disappear /s
The ending states otherwise but some people don't want to listen to reason.
No, they won't.
And a group of people with the power to harm and control others who also happen to be susceptible to the whisperings of demons and whom everyone else dislikes being treated as if they are the same as everyone else is also not going to lead to peace and love and harmony.
My opinion on Tevinter is "I'll reserve judgment". I really hope they're not the boogeyman Orlais and the southern Chantry make them out to be.
well they certainly aren't a shining example of what free mages can do regardless.
We know blood magic abounds along with abuses by the ruling class, composed entirely of mages
I actually think this is a more important choice to the future of Thedas than the mage freedom one.
I think, given the ending of Inquisition, and the political situation across Thedas... an Elven uprising is coming. A big one. Humans are about to get kicked in the balls.
If the new Divine extends an olive branch to the Elven people now, maybe makes some extreme steps torwards ending the Alienage system, then perhaps the Chantry won't get caught in the cross-hairs during that oncoming war. Perhaps instead they will be seen as a newly reformed ally, if the elven side can look past the second Exalted March.
Elves? The weapons of the elven rebellion in Halamshiral consisted of tables being used as shields with knives tied to sticks to serve as spears.
Elves are powerless.
Elves? The weapons of the elven rebellion in Halamshiral consisted of tables being used as shields with knives tied to sticks to serve as spears.
Elves are powerless.
the Dalish are regarded as good sport by Orlesians, not even a danger more than a bear or boar
well they certainly aren't a shining example of what free mages can do regardless.
We know blood magic abounds along with abuses by the ruling class, composed entirely of mages
True, but the Imperium's original circumstances were still far different than the Southern Thedas mages. So yes, I agree that a Tevinter outcome is possible, but I don't think that it's a guarantee that it'd happen.
Guest_TheDarkKnightReturns_*
I actually think this is a more important choice to the future of Thedas than the mage freedom one.
I think, given the ending of Inquisition, and the political situation across Thedas... an Elven uprising is coming. A big one. Human dominance is about to get kicked in the balls.
If the new Divine extends an olive branch to the Elven people now, maybe makes some extreme steps torwards ending the Alienage system, then perhaps the Chantry won't get caught in the cross-hairs during that oncoming war. Perhaps instead they will be seen as a newly reformed ally, if the elven side can look past the second Exalted March.
It also might attract more moderate city Elves to a calmer side of things, instead of encouraging them to side with blood-lusted folk.
Have your heard Cassandra's views about other races and Andrastianism? She gets visibly pissed off Varric doesn't go to a Chantry because he won't be accepted.
Elves? The weapons of the elven rebellion in Halamshiral consisted of tables being used as shields with knives tied to sticks to serve as spears.
Elves are powerless.
I think the Dread Wolf is going to organize them. And break out some ancient Elvish artifacts on the same level as that orb. And maybe a floating magical fortress. Some crazy, plot-related ****. Like giving oppressed people nuclear weapons and laser guns.
True, but the Imperium's original circumstances were still far different than the Southern Thedas mages. So yes, I agree that a Tevinter outcome is possible, but I don't think that it's a guarantee that it'd happen.
well the rest of White Thedas was also Tevinter lands at one point, they share a history from before the Chantry existed in many cases
combined with Leliana's reforms such as reforming the College of Enchanters being eerily similar to what Dorian describes in Tevinter
Elves? The weapons of the elven rebellion in Halamshiral consisted of tables being used as shields with knives tied to sticks to serve as spears.
Elves are powerless.
Except they serve food and drink that can be easily poisoned (City Elf Warden poisoning Guard Beers), They work and live alongside nobles who they probably have access to their quarters. (Mister Sandman style), And they can mob as effectively as most humans can. Not to mention those sympathetic to their cause.
I think the Dread Wolf is going to organize them. And break out some ancient Elvish artifacts on the same level as that orb. And maybe a floating magical fortress. Some crazy, plot-related ****. Like giving oppressed people nuclear weapons and laser guns.
And things like this, More elven artifacts and shite .
Everything leads to war. The fact it took 1000+ years is a feat to brag about.
Exactly. Human history is war with some periods of peace inbetween where we use words and Money and influence to wage conflict.
There is never going to be a solution that will achieve eternal peace. If the new Circle System leads to another thousand years where normal people remain the rulers of everything outsider of Tevinter and aren't being harmed by mages and abominations, I'll say "Mission Accomplished".
Except they serve food and drink that can be easily poisoned (City Elf Warden poisoning Guard Beers), They work and live alongside nobles who they probably have access to their quarters. (Mister Sandman style), And they can mob as effectively as most humans can. Not to mention those sympathetic to their cause.
Halamshiral speaks to the effectiveness of these tactics
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