1029 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

Saying that Isolde is proof of the system not working, is like saying that criminals are proof that prisons are defunct...

[thesuperdarkone2]

of course with lelainna's plot armor she says "PEACE EVERYONE" and everyone goes "alright, we will never fight again. mages will be happy and all our prejducies and hatred is now gone." and thus overnight everything became perfect

Why is it surprising. People thought the dark ritual would come back to bite them and it turns out to be completely irrelevant. Everyone thought sparing the Architect would come back to bite them and nothing happened. Turns out that the choices you expect to bite you wind up not doing that but wind up being beneficial in the end.

[GipsyDangeresque]

Lol, we'll see how that works in the long run...
 

This is a really cute scenario, but it's very unlikely. A brief little revolution can't erase beliefs, superstitions and fears millenia old. Of course everyone can kill, but mages are potentially a walking WMD.
 

Except that it wouldn't work. Sending a tutor to every single mage child, ensuring it hasn't suffered any bad inffluence and making sure it's strong enough to not get posessed outside of the Circle would be impossible. And what if the parents object a la Isolde and hundreds of people die? Your proposal is too idealistic to actually work and quite unnecessary on top of it.

 

"We'll see," "yeah but" "how cute!" is all you've got. Denial of reality.

 

It's not impossible. It's happening right now. And you failed to take into account the whole "just send your child to a college to be taught" part.

 

If you doubt the ability of college Enchanters to raise Mages responsibly, why do you trust the ability of those same Enchanters when they're in a circle instead?

 

No mother is going to want their child to be unable to control their gift or be possessed by a demon, unless they hate them and send them away... in which case the child is free to be taken into a College where they can live and be taught. And the mother should probably face justice for her actions.

 

 

I'll have you know, any time someone argues against me with the accusation of ignorant idealism, I consider if an absolute victory.

[TheJediSaint]

Saying that Isolde is proof of the system not working, is like saying that criminals are proof that prisons are defunct...

Or that laws shouldn't exist because people keep breaking them.

[Steelcan]

Some objectivity please. A crazy person sold them into slavery against their will and a time travelling Magister took it from there.

Said crazy person was the one in charge of the entire rebellion. That she entertained the notion at all is worrying

[GipsyDangeresque]

Or that laws shouldn't exist because people keep breaking them.

 

That's hardly the point of the argument. The argument is that every child needs to recieve a proper magical education, and that the freedom Leliana gives them will ensure more children are educated by proper teachers than the Circle will, because people will gladly go willingly into the towers instead of being forced to them.

[The Baconer]

Said crazy person was the one in charge of the entire rebellion. That she entertained the notion at all is worrying

 

Worrying in regards to what?

[GipsyDangeresque]

Just highlighting that she did it without their consent and pretty much all the mages that you run into after meeting with Alexius is begging the Inquisitor to save them from Fiona's idiocy.

 

Admittedly, Fiona is one of those mages that thinks all of the anti-Tevinter messaging from the Chantry is "propaganda" and when Alexius smooth-talks his way into sounding like a noble savior, she's just desperate enough that she's willing to believe it.

 

As soon as Alexius starts driving home his Vader-esque "I have altered the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further," Fiona is ALSO immediately looking to the Inquisitor like "Please help I fucked up bad."

 

I'd also point out that Hawke and his sibling entered into indentured servitude to gain their family entry to Kirkwall. Dorian also defends such practices, when they're entered into willingly. I disagree with such justifications, but I've seen otherwise reasonable people enter into such a deal in the past.

 

Also, in the timeline in which Alexius never reached Fiona first, she reached out to the Inquisition to lend it aid against the Breach. It might be self-serving, but it's a fair sight better than the Templar's rejection.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Admittedly, Fiona is one of those mages that thinks all of the anti-Tevinter messaging from the Chantry is "propaganda" and when Alexius smooth-talks his way into sounding like a noble savior, she's just desperate enough that she's willing to believe it.

 

As soon as Alexius starts driving home his Vader-esque "I have altered the deal. Pray I do not alter it any further," Fiona is ALSO immediately looking to the Inquisitor like "Please help I fucked up bad."

 

I'd also point out that Hawke and his sibling entered into indentured servitude to gain their family entry to Kirkwall. Dorian also defends such practices, when they're entered into willingly. I disagree with such justifications, but I've seen reasonable people enter into such a deal in the past.

 

Also, in the timeline in which Alexius never reached Fiona first, she reached out to the Inquisition to lend it aid against the Breach. It might be self-serving, but it's a fair sight better than the Templar's rejection.

Don't forget how apparently Alexius planted Tevinter spies into the mages so that it would appear that a majority of the mages wanted an alliance with Tevinter, so Fiona was forced to acquiesce to what she considered the wants of the majority at the time.

[GipsyDangeresque]

Don't forget how apparently Alexius planted Tevinter spies into the mages so that it would appear that a majority of the mages wanted an alliance with Tevinter, so Fiona was forced to acquiesce to what she considered the wants of the majority at the time.

 

Said spies also spread anti-Chantry propaganda and rumors among the uncertain and scared rebels, fueling the "they're not so bad" mentality.

[Barquiel]

Considering there are atrocities like the right of annulment and tranquility I can't really blame Isolde or any other (well informed) parent in Thedas for not wanting to send their children to a circle.

[MisterJB]

Funny that you jump to the hyberbole that all free mages will inevitably create a Mageocracy and create a new Imperium. Fenris was quite close minded, just like you. On the contrary, good Mages would know to take that example as a cautionary tale, just as Dorian explains.

 

Funny that you would bring up Uldred.

 

It is this same Circle system and climate of fear that encouraged and created Uldred. If there was Mage freedom, Uldred would not seek power for the sake of liberation and never become an abomination.

 

The harrowings also pervert the fade and turn spirits into demons, just as Solas has mentioned. It's all one self-fulfilling prophecy that needs to be broken.

 

It's not hyperbole. It's merely the logical conclusion.

Life is, ultimately, a competition. Individuals compete for prestige within societies and groups compete for resources and territory.

Mages and non-mages are two different groups who have been in competition since the dawn of mankind in Thedas. For a long time, mages ruled, but non-mages fought back and now they rule.

If mages are permitted the same freedoms as every one else, they will, obviously, set out to compete again. This is understandable, after all, it's only logical to use magic to advance themselves.

 Unfortunately, given the advantage that magic gives them, it is thus inevitable that non-mages will, little by little, lose influence and power to mages. Both politically and economically.

The mages will justify this as merely defending themselves. After all, non-mages have proven they will opress mages if given power over them. We can't allow another Circle to ocurr.

 

It is the very same arguments non-mages use and, ultimately, the result will be the same only with the roles reversed. Mages ruling and non-mages as second class citizens.

Such is life.

 

It is far more likely Uldred would have sought power for its own sake. Mages do not abuse their powers only if they are being "opressed". Mages abuse their power because they are people.

 

 

[GipsyDangeresque]

Considering there are atrocities like the right of annulment and tranquility I can't really blame Isolde or any other (well informed) parent in Thedas for not wanting to send their children to a circle.

 

There still needs to be some form of education.

 

But anything would be better than propping a similar Circle system back up, as if the world's mages and loved ones of said mages can just shut their eyes, jam their fingers in their ears and pretend things couldn't have changed.

[Steelcan]

Worrying in regards to what?

I'm gonna borrow a bit from Dean the Young's argument here

 

The mage rebellion also doubles as a sort of referendum on whether mages can be trusted to look after themselves outside of Chantry support while under pressure.  The fact that they turned to the living embodiment of why the Circles exist for support proves that they cannot be trusted to look after themselves with no oversight.

 

"But they were desperate"

 

Then they shouldn't have gone to Tevinter, appealing to the local monarchy would have been better suited, Ferelden may be weakened but I'm sure they can hold off fractious branches of the templars.  Instead they betrayed that trust and joined up with the sworn enemy of all southern Thedas

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Don't forget how apparently Alexius planted Tevinter spies into the mages

 

... which makes the prospect of allying with them that much less appealing.

[Steelcan]

Considering there are atrocities like the right of annulment and tranquility I can't really blame Isolde or any other (well informed) parent in Thedas for not wanting to send their children to a circle.

tranquility isn't an atrocity, hell some mages request it.

 

It has certainly been mishandled, as have the Annulments, but having no way counter mages who cannot control their powers, or who desire to lose them is a worse alternative

[GipsyDangeresque]

Yeah, the Hawke's were indentured to known quantities by choice. All of the the mages south of Nevarra were indentured against their will to an unknown quantity. An unknown quantity that was a cultist extremist and Lt. of the Magister that unleashed the Blights on Thedas.

 

Totally the same thing.

 

Ey.

 

The Magister was a known quantity. He had a very trustworthy smile. And he cared about his son so! And it's a small price to pay for having your life saved...

 

 

...God, why is every faction's leader in Inquisition so gullible?

[RobRam10]

I really can't blame the mages for joining with Alexius I mean look at the guy's smile

Perfection.

[Steelcan]

Said spies also spread anti-Chantry propaganda and rumors among the uncertain and scared rebels, fueling the "they're not so bad" mentality.

damn since when does Fiona care about majorities?

[GipsyDangeresque]

tranquility isn't an atrocity, hell some mages request it.

 

It has certainly been mishandled, as have the Annulments, but having no way counter mages who cannot control their powers, or who desire to lose them is a worse alternative

 

Choosing to be tranquil is fine. I don't think Mage freedom rules out that option?

[errantknight]

Why is it surprising. People thought the dark ritual would come back to bite them and it turns out to be completely irrelevant. Everyone thought sparing the Architect would come back to bite them and nothing happened. Turns out that the choices you expect to bite you wind up not doing that but wind up being beneficial in the end.

Pretty early to decide what will or won't come back to bite. There's still plenty of time for disaster.

Now that they have the Keep, there can be repercussions that wouldn't have been worth the effort before, since many more people will see them.

[Hellion Rex]

Again you're using the actions of one retarded person to judge the whole, who were very much against this retarded person, but were trapped inside a city because the gates to hell were keeping them inside...

They weren't trapped though. They could have joined Vivienne, and they would have been perfectly safe.