154 réponses à ce sujet

[Mathias]

I'm not sure if anyone's tested this, but if you reload your game before the final battle, could you have different results as to who's the new Divine? I pretty much did almost everything I could to make sure Cass wouldn't be Divine, and she ended up accepting anyway. 

[MaxQuartiroli]

I'm not sure if anyone's tested this, but if you reload your game before the final battle, could you have different results as to who's the new Divine? I pretty much did almost everything I could to make sure Cass wouldn't be Divine, and she ended up accepting anyway. 

 

I suppose that the outcome is already locked way before the final battle.

[X Equestris]

I'm not sure if anyone's tested this, but if you reload your game before the final battle, could you have different results as to who's the new Divine? I pretty much did almost everything I could to make sure Cass wouldn't be Divine, and she ended up accepting anyway.

Unless there are war table missions or conversations you haven't done, I don't think anything will change.

[Mathias]

So then at what point does the decision become locked?

[X Equestris]

So then at what point does the decision become locked?

Completing Doom upon the World, most likely, since that triggers the epilogue.

[Mathias]

But from what I understand the decisions you make don't guarantee who gets chosen to become the next divine. All it does is it increases the chances of them to become the next divine. So what I'm saying is, if before the final mission Cassandra has an 80% chance to refuse and she still accepts during the epilogue, can I reload before the final mission and hope I get the other result?

[dixophilia]

Not as far as I know. It's not just decisions that decide who will be Divine, but dialogue options as well. Especially early game dialogue options in regard to how you view mages, templars and the chantry.

[X Equestris]

But from what I understand the decisions you make don't guarantee who gets chosen to become the next divine. All it does is it increases the chances of them to become the next divine. So what I'm saying is, if before the final mission Cassandra has an 80% chance to refuse and she still accepts during the epilogue, can I reload before the final mission and hope I get the other result?

It's not a percent based chance. Whoever has the most points based on your decisions and dialogue becomes Divine. The only thing you can do to change the result is to get more points to another candidate, via conversations or war table missions you haven't done.

[Mathias]

It's not a percent based chance. Whoever has the most points based on your decisions and dialogue becomes Divine. The only thing you can do to change the result is to get more points to another candidate, via conversations or war table missions you haven't done.

 

I don't believe that's correct. In my playthrough I strongly supported Leliana and strongly disapproved of Cassandra. I even romanced Cass. In my first couple of playthroughs I did pretty much the same thing and Leliana ended up Divine both times. Yet in my Nightmare playthrough it was Cass.

[X Equestris]

I don't believe that's correct. In my playthrough I strongly supported Leliana and strongly disapproved of Cassandra. I even romanced Cass. In my first couple of playthroughs I did pretty much the same thing and Leliana ended up Divine both times. Yet in my Nightmare playthrough it was Cass.

http://dragonage.wik...Divine_election

It's not just about your expressed support. There are a lot of little dialogues that factor in.

[Mathias]

http://dragonage.wik...Divine_election

It's not just about your expressed support. There are a lot of little dialogues that factor in.

 

Alright I'll have to look into this, thanks!

[TexasToast712]

Vivienne is the best choice for Divine. Cassandra watches the Templars for corruption. Templars watch the mages, and Vivienne ensures mages get better freedoms while still part of the Circles.
Cassandra wants to let the mages rule themselves and is way better suited to rebuilding the Seekers. Leliana is a hippy anarchist who wants to tear down the Chantry and let the mages run all willy nilly.

[sorentoft]

Vivienne is the best choice for Divine. Cassandra watches the Templars for corruption. Templars watch the mages, and Vivienne ensures mages get better freedoms while still part of the Circles.
Cassandra wants to let the mages rule themselves and is way better suited to rebuilding the Seekers. Leliana is a hippy anarchist who wants to tear down the Chantry and let the mages run all willy nilly.

I disagree. Vivienne as the Divine is just asking for trouble. She wants power for the sake of power and will use any means necessary to keep it and expand upon it. She is basically a pope during the Middle Ages when they behaved like petty lords in Italy. Other than that she rules with an iron fist, which should be better for stability, but it obviously is not - without the Inquisition she cannot keep hold onto her power due to sheer rebellion. That is not even to mention the controversy of having a mage(!) as Divine. She is the most unstable choice you could possibly pick and her path is filled with blood and suffering, not to mention it does not serve to learn from the mistakes of the past, but merely to restore it - thus making the past likely to repeat itself.

 

Benevolent Leliana on the other hand is a far better choice, she is the exact Divine that Thedas needs. She is able to push reform without more bloodshed and create peace while pushing the chantry towards a more noble purpose. And her skills in diplomacy and subterfuge would be especially useful in keeping the mages under control despite their independence. And let us not forget the asset Vivienne will be if Leliana is Divine, she will likely be the traditionalist/chantry loyalist push among the College of Enchanters. In the College of Enchanters Viv is useful, as a Divine she is a disaster. You want Viv in charge of the College as while she will push for more power for herself, then she also knows the dangers of magic and is loyal to the Chantry.

 

And Cassandra? You want her as the Lord Seeker. She has plenty of motivation and the ability to remake that order into something better than what it was.

[9TailsFox]

But from what I understand the decisions you make don't guarantee who gets chosen to become the next divine. All it does is it increases the chances of them to become the next divine. So what I'm saying is, if before the final mission Cassandra has an 80% chance to refuse and she still accepts during the epilogue, can I reload before the final mission and hope I get the other result?

It's not chance it's points.

Example You made alliance with mages Leliana +5 points Cass +2 points Vivi +0points and etc templars i think cas get most then Vivi and Leliana 0 If you conscripted mages Vivi get most 5 points. and so on and on. i think who rule Orlais affect to. War table only gives 5 points for who you support. And dialog what you say affect if you say pro mage stuff freedom, no chantry.. Leliana get points. Leliana extreme reform freedom for everyone. Cass small reform, give some freedom for mages. Vivi keep everything the same.

[Boost32]

I disagree. Vivienne as the Divine is just asking for trouble. She wants power for the sake of power and will use any means necessary to keep it and expand upon it. She is basically a pope during the Middle Ages when they behaved like petty lords in Italy. Other than that she rules with an iron fist, which should be better for stability, but it obviously is not - without the Inquisition she cannot keep hold onto her power due to sheer rebellion. That is not even to mention the controversy of having a mage(!) as Divine. She is the most unstable choice you could possibly pick and her path is filled with blood and suffering, not to mention it does not serve to learn from the mistakes of the past, but merely to restore it - thus making the past likely to repeat itself.
 
Benevolent Leliana on the other hand is a far better choice, she is the exact Divine that Thedas needs. She is able to push reform without more bloodshed and create peace while pushing the chantry towards a more noble purpose. And her skills in diplomacy and subterfuge would be especially useful in keeping the mages under control despite their independence. And let us not forget the asset Vivienne will be if Leliana is Divine, she will likely be the traditionalist/chantry loyalist push among the College of Enchanters. In the College of Enchanters Viv is useful, as a Divine she is a disaster. You want Viv in charge of the College as while she will push for more power for herself, then she also knows the dangers of magic and is loyal to the Chantry.
 
And Cassandra? You want her as the Lord Seeker. She has plenty of motivation and the ability to remake that order into something better than what it was.

And I disagree with you, Leliana as Divine is asking for trouble. Leliana is someone who clings to tight into others to find her way of life (Majorlaine, Warden, Justinia and the Inquisitor), she is unfit to lead. She has mental problems, she let 3 experiences determine if she is a angel or if she is a honicidal, how do can people trust someone who can make a change of 180° in a short time? How do you know it will not happen again?
If she is not hardened, how she will face the voices against her? Words cant appeal everyone, when she faces a rebellion, she will have a hard time.
She disbanding the Circles is not learning with history, every society with mages without supervision went bad, Tevinter (unleashed the Blight, blood magic sacrifices,etc) and Dalish (werewolf curse, Ishmael, Audacity) are prime exemples of how bad magic can go when you let mages on the loose, and look how well the rebel mages did, they allied with Tevinter and if they are not saved, they start following Corypheus willingly. And what will happen when a mage becomes a abomination? She has no response against them, its ridiculous to think bad things will never happen.

Vivienne makes the mages go back to the Circles, protecting the people of Thedas against magic, she give them more freedom and responsabilities, and leash the templars to prevent the abuses against mages.
And she can hold the throne without the Inquisition, the difference is that with the Inquisitor things goes more smoothly.

[Jaison1986]

And I disagree with you, Leliana as Divine is asking for trouble. Leliana is someone who clings to tight into others to find her way of life (Majorlaine, Warden, Justinia and the Inquisitor), she is unfit to lead. She has mental problems, she let 3 experiences determine if she is a angel or if she is a honicidal, how do can people trust someone who can make a change of 180° in a short time? How do you know it will not happen again?
If she is not hardened, how she will face the voices against her? Words cant appeal everyone, when she faces a rebellion, she will have a hard time.
She disbanding the Circles is not learning with history, every society with mages without supervision went bad, Tevinter (unleashed the Blight, blood magic sacrifices,etc) and Dalish (werewolf curse, Ishmael, Audacity) are prime exemples of how bad magic can go when you let mages on the loose, and look how well the rebel mages did, they allied with Tevinter and if they are not saved, they start following Corypheus willingly. And what will happen when a mage becomes a abomination? She has no response against them, its ridiculous to think bad things will never happen.

Vivienne makes the mages go back to the Circles, protecting the people of Thedas against magic, she give them more freedom and responsabilities, and leash the templars to prevent the abuses against mages.
And she can hold the throne without the Inquisition, the difference is that with the Inquisitor things goes more smoothly.

 

You are making one fatal mistake though. You're forgetting that Vivienne can only keep templars on a leash and prevent abuses while she is still alive. She kept the statue quo, she made things go back to exactly as they were. Now you tell me, what exactly do you think will happen once she dies? What stops the abuses from the past from coming back all over again?

[Dai Grepher]

Not really a fair argument. I don't think you can blame Vivienne for dying, can you? The point is that she's setting up a system that works best, pleases most, and crushes problems quickly. Ideally, any successor the clerics choose (remember, it's up to them) will follow in Vivienne's footsteps and maintain that working system.

 

I think the point against Leliana is a good one though. What happens if she suffers another faith shattering event, like her Hero love dying or something similar? Will that destroy her emotionally as well? She's a risk, and her plans aren't good to begin with. Vivienne is thinking about the future, and I mean 100s of years into the future. Leliana is thinking about the here and now, and a Divine has to have better foresight than that.

[Jaison1986]

Not really a fair argument. I don't think you can blame Vivienne for dying, can you? The point is that she's setting up a system that works best, pleases most, and crushes problems quickly. Ideally, any successor the clerics choose (remember, it's up to them) will follow in Vivienne's footsteps and maintain that working system.

 

I think the point against Leliana is a good one though. What happens if she suffers another faith shattering event, like her Hero love dying or something similar? Will that destroy her emotionally as well? She's a risk, and her plans aren't good to begin with. Vivienne is thinking about the future, and I mean 100s of years into the future. Leliana is thinking about the here and now, and a Divine has to have better foresight than that.

 

I'm not blaming Vivienne for dying, but question people if they are thinking in the far future. Well, in the Qunari, they would also say their way of life works best, but most of us here still condemn their way of life. What makes one better then the other?

[Boost32]

You are making one fatal mistake though. You're forgetting that Vivienne can only keep templars on a leash and prevent abuses while she is still alive. She kept the statue quo, she made things go back to exactly as they were. Now you tell me, what exactly do you think will happen once she dies? What stops the abuses from the past from coming back all over again?

I'm making no fatal mistake, things could go the way they were? Yes, but I don't believe it will, for a few reasons:

 

First- Because the Templar Order is now leashed into her, she will root out the mage-haters templars and I doubt the new recruits will join the templars with intent to harm mages, if they dont like mages why follow one? So in my opinion she will lead a new Templar Order, free from the bad apples who abused their power over mages.

 

Second- She alone can chage the public view on mages, and as trustworth mages are more integrated into society it will only improve this new vision. In the future less people will hate mages and they will fear them less because of her example, the future templars will not have the same vision on mages that the current templars have.

 

Third- I doubt she will let fate determine her sucessor. She is a master of The Game, she will move things for the Chantry elect someone who shares her vision.

[Jaison1986]

I'm making no fatal mistake, things could go the way they were? Yes, but I don't believe it will, for a few reasons:

 

First- Because the Templar Order is now leashed into her, she will root out the mage-haters templars and I doubt the new recruits will join the templars with intent to harm mages, if they dont like mages why follow one? So in my opinion she will lead a new Templar Order, free from the bad apples who abused their power over mages.

 

Second- She alone can chage the public view on mages, and as trustworth mages are more integrated into society it will only improve this new vision. In the future less people will hate mages and they will fear them less because of her example, the future templars will not have the same vision on mages that the current templars have.

 

Third- I doubt she will let fate determine her sucessor. She is a master of The Game, she will move things for the Chantry elect someone who shares her vision.

 

Very interesting, but since when Vivienne stated at any point that she would change the valors of the templar order? I'm pretty sure you're making this up. Vivienne doesn't care about changing things for the better, so long as the templars do their jobs, she doesn't care if they are fanatics or not. She only leashes the templars because she doesn't want to risk rebellion from either side.

 

Again, I don't remember Vivienne having plans to make society more accepting to the mages. When she ever stated she wanted to improve relations? It's more likely she will keep mages locked up more then ever, were they can remain forgotten.

[Boost32]

Very interesting, but since when Vivienne stated at any point that she would change the valors of the templar order? I'm pretty sure you're making this up. Vivienne doesn't care about changing things for the better, so long as the templars do their jobs, she doesn't care if they are fanatics or not. She only leashes the templars because she doesn't want to risk rebellion from either side.

 

Again, I don't remember Vivienne having plans to make society more accepting to the mages. When she ever stated she wanted to improve relations? It's more likely she will keep mages locked up more then ever, were they can remain forgotten.

Never said she would change the valors of the Templar Order, I said she would root out the mage-haters templars (do you really think she will allow someone who hates her on her Templar Order? Someone who can cause ddisent in the templars ranks?), and it would change the Order.  And I'm pretty sure you are making up the part where you said she doesnt care, have you ever talked to her? I mean talked to her without going all mage freedom and having high approval with her? She know they are flawed, but knows they are necessary, there is nothing implying she doesnt care;

 

 

Well the epilogue goes directly against what you have written. I'm going to post it here: "Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before - even if all true power lies with her."

[TexasToast712]

I just feel confident that with Vivienne on the throne , Cassandra, watching with the Seekers, and Ser Barris and the new non lyrium dependent Templars watching the mages, things will go smoothly. Vivienne's skill at the game and politics in general also will help her.

[sorentoft]

And I disagree with you, Leliana as Divine is asking for trouble. Leliana is someone who clings to tight into others to find her way of life (Majorlaine, Warden, Justinia and the Inquisitor), she is unfit to lead. She has mental problems, she let 3 experiences determine if she is a angel or if she is a honicidal, how do can people trust someone who can make a change of 180° in a short time? How do you know it will not happen again?
If she is not hardened, how she will face the voices against her? Words cant appeal everyone, when she faces a rebellion, she will have a hard time.
She disbanding the Circles is not learning with history, every society with mages without supervision went bad, Tevinter (unleashed the Blight, blood magic sacrifices,etc) and Dalish (werewolf curse, Ishmael, Audacity) are prime exemples of how bad magic can go when you let mages on the loose, and look how well the rebel mages did, they allied with Tevinter and if they are not saved, they start following Corypheus willingly. And what will happen when a mage becomes a abomination? She has no response against them, its ridiculous to think bad things will never happen.

Vivienne makes the mages go back to the Circles, protecting the people of Thedas against magic, she give them more freedom and responsabilities, and leash the templars to prevent the abuses against mages.
And she can hold the throne without the Inquisition, the difference is that with the Inquisitor things goes more smoothly.

First of all, she does by no means cling tight to anyone in Inquisition to find her way in life. The only thing the Inquisitor does is to talk her out of grief and encourage her to use less lethal force. If that is not done then it is obvious that her grief puts her on a dark path, it is not a 180 in a short time. The Inquisition lasts a long time and this is an issue she has struggled with all her life. At the end of the game, as a Divine, it is obvious that she finally settles on one approach or the other. It is also made abundantly clear that she does sway most of the Chantry with her voice, and let's not forget that just because she is benevolent she does not suddenly forget years of being a spymaster and years of being a bard. She plays the game far better than any other in the Chantry.

 

It is also ridiculous to think that Leliana just lets the mages go without supervision. You do realise how she is, right? Information is her stock and trade. That is not even to mention Vivienne being there. Simply thinking that mages going free means terror abound is not consistent with the many instances of free mages that have not turned into blood mages. Many people forget the Mages' Collective who have operated for a long time without turning corrupt, and they forget that the Magisterium is just a continuation of the old Tevinter. There is no reason why the College of Enchanters could not succeed at creating a good institution for mages, especially not with Vivienne at the helm.

 

As for no one being able to hunt down abominations, are you forgetting the Seekers? Forgetting the possibility of just training new templars? Forgetting that mages themselves could hunt them down? It is a non-issue and has happened regardless of the Circles. The Circles do not protect Thedas from magic, never have. If anything all they have done is to build up pressure to a point where it exploded into a war.

[Urzon]

Well the epilogue goes directly against what you have written. I'm going to post it here: "Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before - even if all true power lies with her."

It doesn't really specify what sort of freedoms they're getting though. Are they simply getting more freedoms in the Circles to act and practice their magic how they would like, or are they getting more freedoms like Vivienne herself did in that she was able to become a member in the royal court?

But even then, in that statement itself, it says that Vivienne is the one that is still holding all the true power in the situation. As stated above, what is going to happen when Vivienne either has to step or passes on and all that power she has garnered for the mages is gone? Unless the next Divine elected is mage friendly, all those changes she made for the mages can be undone with a swish of a pen/quill.

~

On a side of Leliana's supposed murder happiness as Divine, people seemed to have forgotten that Justinia used her for the same exact purposes when she was her Left Hand, and Justinia was seemingly one of the most sensibly well meaning pragmatists in Thedas.