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[Lumix19]

It doesn't really specify what sort of freedoms they're getting though. Are they simply getting more freedoms in the Circles to act and practice their magic how they would like, or are they getting more freedoms like Vivienne herself did in that she was able to become a member in the royal court?

But even then, in that statement itself, it says that Vivienne is the one that is still holding all the true power in the situation. As stated above, what is going to happen when Vivienne either has to step or passes on and all that power she has garnered for the mages is gone? Unless the next Divine elected is mage friendly, all those changes she made for the mages can be undone with a swish of a pen/quill.

Exactly. Having more freedoms than ever before is not exactly saying much. Are mages allowed to leave the Circle? Is she going to take Cullen's suggestion and allow them to help out in clinics? Are mages who "don't make the cut" still going to be forced to go through Tranquility? Will the Chantry still be allowed to dictate how magic is used and what forms of magic are and aren't allowed? How will she treat the Rite of Annulment? What are the powers of the Templars under her rule? Generic "freedoms!" is all well and good but if it's not actually addressing the grievances of the mages and easing tensions it's all rather worthless.

 

Something I'm also interested in is whether mages will be allowed to become Templars (or even Seekers). It would certainly ease tensions if mages didn't see Templars as a faceless jailor.

[Boost32]

First of all, she does by no means cling tight to anyone in Inquisition to find her way in life. The only thing the Inquisitor does is to talk her out of grief and encourage her to use less lethal force. If that is not done then it is obvious that her grief puts her on a dark path, it is not a 180 in a short time. The Inquisition lasts a long time and this is an issue she has struggled with all her life. At the end of the game, as a Divine, it is obvious that she finally settles on one approach or the other. It is also made abundantly clear that she does sway most of the Chantry with her voice, and let's not forget that just because she is benevolent she does not suddenly forget years of being a spymaster and years of being a bard. She plays the game far better than any other in the Chantry.

 

It is also ridiculous to think that Leliana just lets the mages go without supervision. You do realise how she is, right? Information is her stock and trade. That is not even to mention Vivienne being there. Simply thinking that mages going free means terror abound is not consistent with the many instances of free mages that have not turned into blood mages. Many people forget the Mages' Collective who have operated for a long time without turning corrupt, and they forget that the Magisterium is just a continuation of the old Tevinter. There is no reason why the College of Enchanters could not succeed at creating a good institution for mages, especially not with Vivienne at the helm.

 

As for no one being able to hunt down abominations, are you forgetting the Seekers? Forgetting the possibility of just training new templars? Forgetting that mages themselves could hunt them down? It is a non-issue and has happened regardless of the Circles. The Circles do not protect Thedas from magic, never have. If anything all they have done is to build up pressure to a point where it exploded into a war.

Yes she does, she  cant know if she a murder or a saint, she looks up to the Inquisitor to know what to do because its what she have always done, she always look for someone to be her role model, it was like that for Majorlaine, Warden, Justinia and now the Inquisitor, she cant know who she trully is withouth someone telling her. she is unfit to lead.

How its not a 180º in a short time? If you tell her to kill Natalie she becomes a murderer (even if your previous actions were softening her) if you tell her to spare she becomes a saint, she is mentally unstable. She "finally settled" others times in her life too, just to begin the process to know who she tully is again, there is no guarantee she will not do it again, because she has done it several times.

Her ending is absolute crap, "miraculously her words take roots" is ridiculous, she want to change so much and no one is against? Tell me when it happened in history? And when she faces detractors who cant be convinced with words?

Saying she is a good is spymaster is funny, because she is one of the worst. She was fooled by Blackwall and Solas, assassins and spies (House of Repose, Qunari, Venatori) runs amok in Skyhold and she doesnt even know, she pulled her scouts and it allowed Corypheus to take Haven by surprise. And please remember me how well she plays the Game, because the only achievements I remember is being almost killed by Majorlaine.

 

She just disband the Circles, she does nothing to supervise them. If you have any proof of her doing it, please show me. Free mages have killed innocents in Hintherlands, free mages have allied with Tevinter, free mages can follow Corypheus willingly if the Inquisitor don't save them from their stupidity, not counting the several apostates in the game who are completely insane.

How do you know the Mages Collective never did anything wrong? Even if thye dont, they are the exception, not the rule. And if I remember the magister are mages withouth any supervision, and what they do? Kill their slaves for blood magic or do Lyrium marks on them, what a good example of free mages society! About the College of Enchanter, I don't trust any organization with Fiona as it leader, she fuc*ed to much (even attack the Inquisitor if you go with the templars) for me to believe she will not do it again.

 

The Seekers will only be rebuilded if you tell Cassandra to do it, if you dont Laliana doesnt do anything. Leliana doesnt train any templars and sending mages against a abomination did so well in Ferelden Circle, its not like Uldred made more abominations with the mages, thats a excellent idea.

Please remember how many mages who were in the Circle destroyed a Chantry and killed hundreds of people, helped to open the Breach, made the Werewolf Curse, Summoned one of the Forbidden Ones, etc...

 

 

It doesn't really specify what sort of freedoms they're getting though. Are they simply getting more freedoms in the Circles to act and practice their magic how they would like, or are they getting more freedoms like Vivienne herself did in that she was able to become a member in the royal court?

But even then, in that statement itself, it says that Vivienne is the one that is still holding all the true power in the situation. As stated above, what is going to happen when Vivienne either has to step or passes on and all that power she has garnered for the mages is gone? Unless the next Divine elected is mage friendly, all those changes she made for the mages can be undone with a swish of a pen/quill.

~

On a side of Leliana's supposed murder happiness as Divine, people seemed to have forgotten that Justinia used her for the same exact purposes when she was her Left Hand, and Justinia was seemingly one of the most sensibly well meaning pragmatists in Thedas.

Its said they have more freedom than ever, lets remember how the most permissive Circles acted: Rhys could go to the Val Royeaux market without supervision, Vivienne tell us how every noble family had at least one mage in their house, trustworth mages could leave to do research, Circle Business or to go to nobles party, Finn, Wynne, Vivienne, Ines, Rhys and his Teacher, hell even Bethany could leave the Kirk wall Circle to investigate the attacks on her or to go to Prosper's Hunt Party, and now mages have more than that.

 

About the second point you can go back and read a previous post of mine,where I adress this issue, I'm not going to repeat myself;

And its funny how Vivienne can go back but Leliana can't, please remember me what is stopping the next Divine from declaring a Exalted March on mages and putting them back to the Circles? If we are going to make wild speculation on the future, this can happen too.

[Lumix19]

Yes she does, she  cant know if she a murder or a saint, she looks up to the Inquisitor to know what to do because its what she have always done, she always look for someone to be her role model, it was like that for Majorlaine, Warden, Justinia and now the Inquisitor, she cant know who she trully is withouth someone telling her. she is unfit to lead.
How its not a 180º in a short time? If you tell her to kill Natalie she becomes a murderer (even if your previous actions were softening her) if you tell her to spare she becomes a saint, she is mentally unstable. She "finally settled" others times in her life too, just to begin the process to know who she tully is again, there is no guarantee she will not do it again, because she has done it several times.
Her ending is absolute crap, "miraculously her words take roots" is ridiculous, she want to change so much and no one is against? Tell me when it happened in history? And when she faces detractors who cant be convinced with words?
Saying she is a good is spymaster is funny, because she is one of the worst. She was fooled by Blackwall and Solas, assassins and spies (House of Repose, Qunari, Venatori) runs amok in Skyhold and she doesnt even know, she pulled her scouts and it allowed Corypheus to take Haven by surprise. And please remember me how well she plays the Game, because the only achievements I remember is being almost killed by Majorlaine.
 
She just disband the Circles, she does nothing to supervise them. If you have any proof of her doing it, please show me. Free mages have killed innocents in Hintherlands, free mages have allied with Tevinter, free mages can follow Corypheus willingly if the Inquisitor don't save them from their stupidity, not counting the several apostates in the game who are completely insane.
How do you know the Mages Collective never did anything wrong? Even if thye dont, they are the exception, not the rule. And if I remember the magister are mages withouth any supervision, and what they do? Kill their slaves for blood magic or do Lyrium marks on them, what a good example of free mages society! About the College of Enchanter, I don't trust any organization with Fiona as it leader, she fuc*ed to much (even attack the Inquisitor if you go with the templars) for me to believe she will not do it again.
 
The Seekers will only be rebuilded if you tell Cassandra to do it, if you dont Laliana doesnt do anything. Leliana doesnt train any templars and sending mages against a abomination did so well in Ferelden Circle, its not like Uldred made more abominations with the mages, thats a excellent idea.
Please remember how many mages who were in the Circle destroyed a Chantry and killed hundreds of people, helped to open the Breach, made the Werewolf Curse, Summoned one of the Forbidden Ones, etc...
 
 

Its said they have more freedom than ever, lets remember how the most permissive Circles acted: Rhys could go to the Val Royeaux market without supervision, Vivienne tell us how every noble family had at least one mage in their house, trustworth mages could leave to do research, Circle Business or to go to nobles party, Finn, Wynne, Vivienne, Ines, Rhys and his Teacher, hell even Bethany could leave the Kirk wall Circle to investigate the attacks on her or to go to Prosper's Hunt Party, and now mages have more than that.
 
About the second point you can go back and read a previous post of mine,where I adress this issue, I'm not going to repeat myself;
And its funny how Vivienne can go back but Leliana can't, please remember me what is stopping the next Divine from declaring a Exalted March on mages and putting them back to the Circles? If we are going to make wild speculation on the future, this can happen too.

To be fair of the people you've listed people like Wynne, Rhys, Vivienne (and possibly Ines) were all Senior Enchanters and high-ranking members of the Circle, and didn't Wynne even have to ask to be allowed to leave? Only Finn and Bethany serve to show that the common Mage is allowed to leave the Circle and that's under extenuating circumstances, the first because of the Warden and the second because of Hawke.

The difference I think between Vivienne and Leliana is that Vivienne concentrates her power into the position of the Divine, extending her authority to greater heights, something that can be abused by the next Divine. For a future Divine in her scenario it's a matter of changing a few laws and giving new orders to the Templars. Leliana's dissolution of the Circles actually means the Chantry now lacks any authority to control them. A future Divine who changes that would not only look inconsistent with the previous Divine's wishes but would have to literally force mages back into Circles, starting another war.

[Urzon]

Its said they have more freedom than ever, lets remember how the most permissive Circles acted: Rhys could go to the Val Royeaux market without supervision, Vivienne tell us how every noble family had at least one mage in their house, trustworth mages could leave to do research, Circle Business or to go to nobles party, Finn, Wynne, Vivienne, Ines, Rhys and his Teacher, hell even Bethany could leave the Kirk wall Circle to investigate the attacks on her or to go to Prosper's Hunt Party, and now mages have more than that.
 
About the second point you can go back and read a previous post of mine,where I adress this issue, I'm not going to repeat myself;
And its funny how Vivienne can go back but Leliana can't, please remember me what is stopping the next Divine from declaring a Exalted March on mages and putting them back to the Circles? If we are going to make wild speculation on the future, this can happen too.

Vague and undefined "freedoms and responsibilities" are still vague and undefined at the end of the day. We all can make "wild speculation on the future" of the matter, but both sides are going to be neither right or wrong unless we get a WoG.

That being said, I'm sure that the rule that mages need the express permission of either the FE or the KC before they could leave the Circle would still be in effect. Other than Finn and Bethany who got really a handwave excuse since it related to the PC, all the mages you listed are older, well experienced, and trustworthy Senior Enchanters. Under Vivienne's systems, how much do you really think that's going to change in the end for those lower down the totem pole?

That's why I usually say under Vivienne's system the mages only get more freedoms and responsibilities IN the Circles. Anything related to magical affairs outside the Circles is probably same old same old still.
 
As for the second topic, are we allowed to wildly speculate then? I guess I'll try my hand at it. I will say it's entirely possible for the Divine after Leliana to try and call an Exalted March to try and re-encircle the mages, but it would steadily become a greater uphill battle the longer Leliana's reign as Divine was. This is because of the few different things Leliana does right when she becomes Divine that will have a greater impact of the Chantry at large.
 
First and foremost, the Templars are either independent from the Chantry and already monitoring the mages for public safety, or they are outright disbanded when Leliana becomes Divine. The Divine after her might be able to easily call an Exalted March, but she would need to either try and reabsorb the Templar Order back into Chantry ranks after they've been working independently for so many years or remake the Templar Order herself. Without some sort of Templar Order under thumb, the Circles would never be able to work under Chantry control again.   
 
Secondly, the longer the College of Enchanters is allowed to continue the more integrated into the general population and the inner working of the different governments they become. Vivienne might try and change people's perception of mages with her own imagine, but the mages integrating themselves into the population will give mages' a face quicker than Vivienne's distant representation ever could. Like most desegregations, this process is going to be volatile, probably doubly so given the power of the mages, but given the right efforts and after a certain amount of time this will settle. The Divine will be hard pressed trying to extract mages from communities where they are seen as people's loved ones, friends, neighbors, or an excellent resource to be used (the government's possible view).
 
Thirdly, Leliana rededicates the Chantry's principle to being a charity. This is a big change since with the combination of the mages and Templars previously, the larger Chantry was a political organization as well as a religion one in Thedas. With the mages and Templars gone, and changing the course of the Chantry to be a charitable organization, Leliana would have to change the entire political standing the Chantry has with each nation, the financial means since they no longer have to fund the Templars or their lyrium addiction to keep them in control, the mage Circles upkeep and money possibly gained from the selling of magical goods, and the general social standing the Chantry has with the community.

Any Divine after her wanting to re-enCircle the mages is going to have to undo all of that. She is going to have to reabsorb the independent Templars or remake the Order itself, restart the trade with the dwarves for lyrium to be able to control them again, gather enough fund to be able to launch an Exalted March, possibly reconquer the Circle since the College of Enchanters might be using them as schools and bases, deal with any and all backlash from the general populace for snatching their mage members, and last but not least deal with any political backlash now that the Chantry has their own personal army of Templars and mages and once again a force to be reckoned with.

[Boost32]

Vague and undefined "freedoms and responsibilities" are still vague and undefined at the end of the day. We all can make "wild speculation on the future" of the matter, but both sides are going to be neither right or wrong unless we get a WoG.
That being said, I'm sure that the rule that mages need the express permission of either the FE or the KC before they could leave the Circle would still be in effect. Other than Finn and Bethany who got really a handwave excuse since it related to the PC, all the mages you listed are older, well experienced, and trustworthy Senior Enchanters. Under Vivienne's systems, how much do you really think that's going to change in the end for those lower down the totem pole?
That's why I usually say under Vivienne's system the mages only get more freedoms and responsibilities IN the Circles. Anything related to magical affairs outside the Circles is probably same old same old still.

Have you read the Epilogue? "Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before". The"tthan ever before part" means they have more freedom in the history of the Circle.
Ofc they would need the permission of the FE, Vmages are dangerous, they shouldnt be roaming the street unleash they prove they are trustworth. And its funny how you desregrardes Finn and Bethany, "if they go against my PoV, I'm going to ignore canon information, because reasons", and its funny how you forget the piece of dialogue with Vivienne where when she was young she went to a Orlesian ball.
You say it because you want to find some fault on her, not because you have any proof.

About your second part:
Thank you to prove my point on the while "the next Divine can change things back to how it was before" is very diffculty but can happen, thats doesnt mean it wil happen and those who use it as argument doesnt have any proof of it and are just speculation.

[sorentoft]

Yes she does, she  cant know if she a murder or a saint, she looks up to the Inquisitor to know what to do because its what she have always done, she always look for someone to be her role model, it was like that for Majorlaine, Warden, Justinia and now the Inquisitor, she cant know who she trully is withouth someone telling her. she is unfit to lead.

How its not a 180º in a short time? If you tell her to kill Natalie she becomes a murderer (even if your previous actions were softening her) if you tell her to spare she becomes a saint, she is mentally unstable. She "finally settled" others times in her life too, just to begin the process to know who she tully is again, there is no guarantee she will not do it again, because she has done it several times.

Her ending is absolute crap, "miraculously her words take roots" is ridiculous, she want to change so much and no one is against? Tell me when it happened in history? And when she faces detractors who cant be convinced with words?

Saying she is a good is spymaster is funny, because she is one of the worst. She was fooled by Blackwall and Solas, assassins and spies (House of Repose, Qunari, Venatori) runs amok in Skyhold and she doesnt even know, she pulled her scouts and it allowed Corypheus to take Haven by surprise. And please remember me how well she plays the Game, because the only achievements I remember is being almost killed by Majorlaine.

 

She just disband the Circles, she does nothing to supervise them. If you have any proof of her doing it, please show me. Free mages have killed innocents in Hintherlands, free mages have allied with Tevinter, free mages can follow Corypheus willingly if the Inquisitor don't save them from their stupidity, not counting the several apostates in the game who are completely insane.

How do you know the Mages Collective never did anything wrong? Even if thye dont, they are the exception, not the rule. And if I remember the magister are mages withouth any supervision, and what they do? Kill their slaves for blood magic or do Lyrium marks on them, what a good example of free mages society! About the College of Enchanter, I don't trust any organization with Fiona as it leader, she fuc*ed to much (even attack the Inquisitor if you go with the templars) for me to believe she will not do it again.

 

The Seekers will only be rebuilded if you tell Cassandra to do it, if you dont Laliana doesnt do anything. Leliana doesnt train any templars and sending mages against a abomination did so well in Ferelden Circle, its not like Uldred made more abominations with the mages, thats a excellent idea.

Please remember how many mages who were in the Circle destroyed a Chantry and killed hundreds of people, helped to open the Breach, made the Werewolf Curse, Summoned one of the Forbidden Ones, etc...

I already addressed most of your points in my previous post, just because you repeat the false things you already said then they do not somehow become true. No, Leliana is not mentally unstable, you have absolutely no basis for that argument. She does not do a 180 either as the change to her character happens during the length of the game, it does not suddenly just happen at Natalie. The source for what happens with Natalie is at the very start where the Inquisitor suggests Leliana take a different approach than killing her traitorous agent. During no point in the game is she using the Inquisitor as a role model, she simply takes the advise. Your opinion on the ending really has no bearing on this either.

 

And then you think she is somehow a bad spymaster because she let the real identity of Blackwall and Solas slip through her fingers? Are you missing that absolutely everyone else did as well? You are holding her to an unreasonable standard when not even the grey wardens can point out that "Blackwall" is not Blackwall. Aside of that then no one expected Corypheus either. And finally then it is impossible for her to keep out enemy agents when the Inquisition is the organization it is. They will find their way in and trying to keep track of every one of them would essentially occupy all her resources to just watch Skyhold. Your entire argument is silly.

 

As for the free mages then you conveniently forget that they were hunted by insane templars. Everyone can do terrible things if properly motivated and a threat to someone's life is often a very good source of motivation. As for the magisters, read my previous post. I am not going to bother refuting that drivel again. The key thing I think you are missing is that mages are just people like everyone else. I'm not arguing that a mage or even the Mage's Collective never did anything wrong, but I am arguing that you cannot just treat all of them a wide brush. Just because one group of mages turned out awful then it does not mean another one will.

 

Anyway, I am done. If that response from you showed me anything then it is that this will be a pointless endeavour.

[Boost32]

I already addressed most of your points in my previous post, just because you repeat the false things you already said then they do not somehow become true. No, Leliana is not mentally unstable, you have absolutely no basis for that argument. She does not do a 180 either as the change to her character happens during the length of the game, it does not suddenly just happen at Natalie. The source for what happens with Natalie is at the very start where the Inquisitor suggests Leliana take a different approach than killing her traitorous agent. During no point in the game is she using the Inquisitor as a role model, she simply takes the advise. Your opinion on the ending really has no bearing on this either.

 

And then you think she is somehow a bad spymaster because she let the real identity of Blackwall and Solas slip through her fingers? Are you missing that absolutely everyone else did as well? You are holding her to an unreasonable standard when not even the grey wardens can point out that "Blackwall" is not Blackwall. Aside of that then no one expected Corypheus either. And finally then it is impossible for her to keep out enemy agents when the Inquisition is the organization it is. They will find their way in and trying to keep track of every one of them would essentially occupy all her resources to just watch Skyhold. Your entire argument is silly.

 

As for the free mages then you conveniently forget that they were hunted by insane templars. Everyone can do terrible things if properly motivated and a threat to someone's life is often a very good source of motivation. As for the magisters, read my previous post. I am not going to bother refuting that drivel again. The key thing I think you are missing is that mages are just people like everyone else. I'm not arguing that a mage or even the Mage's Collective never did anything wrong, but I am arguing that you cannot just treat all of them a wide brush. Just because one group of mages turned out awful then it does not mean another one will.

 

Anyway, I am done. If that response from you showed me anything then it is that this will be a pointless endeavour.

 

And you did not do dispprove the fact she is a mentally unstable person who clings on others to be her role model.

 

Wait, you want to tell me she is not a bad spymaster because others did not know Solas and Blackwall were lying? They dont have a spynetwork, its not their job to investigate someones backgorund and wasnt them who pointed the Inquisitor to Blackwall wihout verifying if he is really who he claims to be. Ofc no one was expecting Corypheus, thats because Leliana pulled the scouts back, its was one of the most horrible decision I ever saw in Dragon Age, if your scouts start missing you dont pull them back without knowing what is happening. LOL, you are trying to tell me thats its ok if assassins and spy infiltrate the very heart of the Inquisition? LOL you cant be serious, ans its her job to check the background of people who comes to Skyhold, and it wasnt one spy/assassin, there are several factions infiltrating Skyhold because of her incompetence.

 

Mages arent people like everyone else, they have power that no mudane person has, you cant treat them like everyone else. The damage they did cannot be comparable for what a mudane damage can do.

 

OK, see ya.

[Urzon]

Have you read the Epilogue? "Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before". The"tthan ever before part" means they have more freedom in the history of the Circle.
Ofc they would need the permission of the FE, Vmages are dangerous, they shouldnt be roaming the street unleash they prove they are trustworth. And its funny how you desregrardes Finn and Bethany, "if they go against my PoV, I'm going to ignore canon information, because reasons", and its funny how you forget the piece of dialogue with Vivienne where when she was young she went to a Orlesian ball.

 
Yes, the epilogue specifically states that "Mages rise quickly in the new Circle...". They may have more freedom and responsibility, but it never specifies on whether those freedoms and responsibilities extend to any possible positions the mages could have outside the Circles though. That's why I said that that argument is basically a moot point. We know that they get more freedoms and responsibilities in the Circles, but that slide is so vague, in that it doesn't give any information for what that actually entails, that both sides could use it for their arguments and can't be proven wrong unless we get a WoG on the matter. No amount of repeating it changes that state of vagueness.
 
I didn't really disregard Finn and Bethany either. They would have to have gotten permission to leave the Circles (even though it was never mentioned or seen in-game), but they were both working with or under the command of either someone in a powerful position or a honorable high ranking member of the community (the Warden-Commander or noble/champion Hawke). The same applies to Vivienne's dialogue about going to the ball when she was younger. The nobles rented out the mages of the Circle chain gang style (because you can almost guarantee there were Templars watching over the mages' actions like prison wardens) to entertain the guests at the party with their magic.
 
 

You say it because you want to find some fault on her, not because you have any proof.

To the surprise of many, she reinstates the Circle of Magi and creates a Templar Order firmly leashed to her hand.

Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before - even if all true power lies with her.

My fault with her is her decision to consolidate, once again, all of her changes regarding the re-enCircled mages and the leashing of the Templar Order to herself and her position as Divine. My proof that she has done so is in the epilogue slide itself. Vivienne might turn out to be an excellent Divine, but she opened the door for future Divines after her to more easily abuse their position and the positions of the mages, and their newly found additional freedoms and responsibilities, and the Templars by strictly leashing their orders to whoever is the Divine at the time.

 

Other than the mages getting more freedoms in the Circle, we wind up exactly in the same position right before the Mage/Templar War. The mages are stuck in the Circles, the Templars are chained to the Chantry with their lyrium addiction, and the Divine holds all the power, if not more so in Vivienne's situation, in the relationship. Unless Vivienne or some future Divine makes some reforms on the matter, there is a high probability that we'll have another rebellion on our hands.

[Boost32]

 
Yes, the epilogue specifically states that "Mages rise quickly in the new Circle...". They may have more freedom and responsibility, but it never specifies on whether those freedoms and responsibilities extend to any possible positions the mages could have outside the Circles though. That's why I said that that argument is basically a moot point. We know that they get more freedoms and responsibilities in the Circles, but that slide is so vague, in that it doesn't give any information for what that actually entails, that both sides could use it for their arguments and can't be proven wrong unless we get a WoG on the matter. No amount of repeating it changes that state of vagueness.
 
I didn't really disregard Finn and Bethany either. They would have to have gotten permission to leave the Circles (even though it was never mentioned or seen in-game), but they were both working with or under the command of either someone in a powerful position or a honorable high ranking member of the community (the Warden-Commander or noble/champion Hawke). The same applies to Vivienne's dialogue about going to the ball when she was younger. The nobles rented out the mages of the Circle chain gang style (because you can almost guarantee there were Templars watching over the mages' actions like prison wardens) to entertain the guests at the party with their magic.
 
 

To the surprise of many, she reinstates the Circle of Magi and creates a Templar Order firmly leashed to her hand.

Mages rise quickly in the new Circle, having more freedom and responsibility then ever before - even if all true power lies with her.

My fault with her is her decision to consolidate, once again, all of her changes regarding the re-enCircled mages and the leashing of the Templar Order to herself and her position as Divine. My proof that she has done so is in the epilogue slide itself. Vivienne might turn out to be an excellent Divine, but she opened the door for future Divines after her to more easily abuse their position and the positions of the mages, and their newly found additional freedoms and responsibilities, and the Templars by strictly leashing their orders to whoever is the Divine at the time.

 

Other than the mages getting more freedoms in the Circle, we wind up exactly in the same position right before the Mage/Templar War. The mages are stuck in the Circles, the Templars are chained to the Chantry with their lyrium addiction, and the Divine holds all the power, if not more so in Vivienne's situation, in the relationship. Unless Vivienne or some future Divine makes some reforms on the matter, there is a high probability that we'll have another rebellion on our hands.

And you still ignore where it syas "more than ever before", I showed the freedoms they have before, so they at least have those, but  you still ignore them.

 

There is not indicating they were granted permission because of Hawke/Warden, they are gained because they were mages who followed the rules,in MotA Bethany didnt even know Hawke was going to be there, and there is no way a mage like Anders was going to get permission to go out of the Circle like those 2.

 

Or it could lead to a change of view on mages because their new Divine is a mage, and because of this the next Divine will respect her predecessor rules. Whatever the future holds, we can all speculate there is nothing defined.

 

Good, because mages are dangerous and should be quarantined from mudanes until they prove themselves trustworth (even them they shouldnt stay away too long). Templars need Lyrium to get their anti-magical powers (block and dispell magic and are resistant to it), without it they are  just normal soldier, . Go on and read JoH codex about Haron (one of the first templars and Ameridan's friend), how he saved one of his friend because he had those powers, and with those powers the templars can help the Inquisitor to close the Breach (no normal soldier could have done the same).

[Robert Cousland]

If Leliana becomes Divine, and if she were in a relationship with the Warden, will she end that relationship, or will they keep their relationship private?

[X Equestris]

If Leliana becomes Divine, and if she were in a relationship with the Warden, will she end that relationship, or will they keep their relationship private?

Word of God says a romanced Leliana throws out the rule regarding Divine celibacy.

[XEternalXDreamsX]

It's crazy how I don't have a personal preference for the Divine. When my character romances Cassandra, I would prefer her just to rebuild the Seekers and prove to the world and herself that we can change it for the better. Usually that character is very devoted to the Chantry and Pro-Templar, so Viv over Lel for me. In this case, my speciality is Templar so it works hand in hand.

It's not that I like Viv personally, but she maintains the Circles as a Mage while also somewhat expanding freedoms and responsibilities. I know Pro-Templar doesn't mean Pro-Circle. It just maintains a certain consistency for the playthrough.

When I run a Pro-Mage freedom fighter, I prefer Softened Lel. I am usually a lot more liberal in these types of playthroughs (Pro-Elf, freedom) and that epilogue suits it.

Cassandra as Divine isn't horrible but I don't have a playthrough where preference of her being Divine comes into play.

Crazy part is that I do not have a personal/player preference as far as canon goes because I have respect for each one in a certain way.

[Robert Cousland]

Word of God says a romanced Leliana throws out the rule regarding Divine celibacy.

 

Wish Cassandra would do that...

 

For my original canon Inquisitor, Alec Trevelyan, he romanced Cassandra and I decided to make her Divine, because I thought that would make their relationship stronger, and create a powerful new force in Thedas, only for her to dump my Trevelyan. Suffice to say, my canon Divine is now Leliana.

[Urzon]

Good, because mages are dangerous and should be quarantined from mudanes until they prove themselves trustworth (even them they shouldnt stay away too long). Templars need Lyrium to get their anti-magical powers (block and dispell magic and are resistant to it), without it they are  just normal soldier, . Go on and read JoH codex about Haron (one of the first templars and Ameridan's friend), how he saved one of his friend because he had those powers, and with those powers the templars can help the Inquisitor to close the Breach (no normal soldier could have done the same).

Einstein's definition of insanity comes into play at this point.

Even after Vivienne saw how the mage and Templar rebellions started, and the Chantry's part to play in the whole thing, she went right back to the same old system of doing thing in Thedas. She gave mages more freedoms, but it would be extremely naïve to think that going to placate them forever. After a period of time, the mages are going to be use to the addition freedoms and demand more, and Vivienne isn't going to be around forever as Divine to be able to soothe their concerns and problems. They are once again going to start seeing the Circles as gilded cages and start pushing more and more aggressively for freedom.

The same problems lies with her reestablishing the Templar Order too, firmly leashed to her hand. The Chantry is once again using the templars' addiction and dependency on lyrium to control their entire order, holding that entire order's mental stability and life over their head with their daily dose of lyrium, and only those that follow the orders and don't step out of line get their dose. How long do you think it's going to be before another person like Samson comes about and starts pointing out the Chantry's abuses towards their order? That they are happy to use the Templar's faith to bolster the order and to control the mages, but they would easily expel any Templar that they don't approve of, damned the consequences to that Templar's health and wellbeing from lyrium withdrawal?

Vivienne might have brought peace and stability to southern Thedas in the short term with her dealings with the mages and Templars, but in the long term? She's setting up Thedas for another round of costly rebellions on both the mage and Templar front.

[Boost32]

Einstein's definition of insanity comes into play at this point.
Even after Vivienne saw how the mage and Templar rebellions started, and the Chantry's part to play in the whole thing, she went right back to the same old system of doing thing in Thedas. She gave mages more freedoms, but it would be extremely naïve to think that going to placate them forever. After a period of time, the mages are going to be use to the addition freedoms and demand more, and Vivienne isn't going to be around forever as Divine to be able to soothe their concerns and problems. They are once again going to start seeing the Circles as gilded cages and start pushing more and more aggressively for freedom.
The same problems lies with her reestablishing the Templar Order too, firmly leashed to her hand. The Chantry is once again using the templars' addiction and dependency on lyrium to control their entire order, holding that entire order's mental stability and life over their head with their daily dose of lyrium, and only those that follow the orders and don't step out of line get their dose. How long do you think it's going to be before another person like Samson comes about and starts pointing out the Chantry's abuses towards their order? That they are happy to use the Templar's faith to bolster the order and to control the mages, but they would easily expel any Templar that they don't approve of, damned the consequences to that Templar's health and wellbeing from lyrium withdrawal?
Vivienne might have brought peace and stability to southern Thedas in the short term with her dealings with the mages and Templars, but in the long term? She's setting up Thedas for another round of costly rebellions on both the mage and Templar front.

And Vivienne is right, you cant have mages roaming free, they are dangerous. If they start a rebellion she will crush it, like she does if the Inquisitor sided with the mage.
And Leliana knows how mage without supervision can damage the world without repair, that every society with free mages have them f*cking things, Dalish, Avvar, Tevinter, countless of livres have been lost for a few mages to have their freedom, yet she let them go on unrestricted. And what will happen when mudane people start a witch hunt because abominations roam the lands and there arent any templars to deal with them? Do you think they will spare any mage? Do you think the Inquisition can protect nations far away from its grasp like Andersfel and Antiva?

The templars need Lyrium to get their powers, they don't ingest it because its addctive, the addction is a side effect that they know that will happen, but make the sacrifice to protect the people of Thedas. With them leashed she will prevent abuses from happening
Samson was expelled by Meredith, if the Divine had a tight grasp on the templars, someone corrupt as Meredith, would not have reached a position of power. And Samson is a exception, not a rule, go to Therinfal and see how the templars agree with him when they discovered that red Lyrium was corrupt.

And again this is all speculation on your part, there is nothing indicating it will happen.

[Jaison1986]

And again this is all speculation on your part, there is nothing indicating it will happen.

 

Bloody hell, you're such an hypocrite. Your claims are nothing but speculations that Vivienne reing will work out. You have no hard evidence. And yet, you dismiss people for the same mistake you make. 

[Urzon]

And again this is all speculation on your part, there is nothing indicating it will happen.

The same can be said about all your speculation that Leliana's reign as Divine will lead Thedas to ruin.

[Boost32]

Bloody hell, you're such an hypocrite. Your claims are nothing but speculations that Vivienne reing will work out. You have no hard evidence. And yet, you dismiss people for the same mistake you make.

First I didn't stated my opinions like fact, like you and Urzon did. Go back and read my previous post where I acknowledge there is the possibility of those things happening, but in my opinion it wouldn't, never stated it as a fact.
Your post fits very well for what you did too, are you going to call yourself a blood hell hypocryte too?

And after your personal insult you are welcone in my ignore list.

The same can be said about all your speculation that Leliana's reign as Divine will lead Thedas to ruin.

Yes, it can.

[Urzon]

First I didn't stated my opinions like fact, like you and Urzon did. Go back and read my previous post where I acknowledge there is the possibility of those things happening, but in my opinion it wouldn't, never stated it as a fact.
Your post fits very well for what you did too, are you going to call yourself a blood hell hypocryte too?

And after your personal insult you are welcone in my ignore list.

Is stating things like a fact such a faux pas now? We're on a forum discussing the possible future ramifications and scenarios of the choice of the Divine. Stated as a fact or not, anything anyone says regarding future possible events is instantly speculation and such be taken as such.

[Boost32]

Is stating things like a fact such a faux pas now? We're on a forum discussing the possible future ramifications and scenarios of the choice of the Divine. Stated as a fact or not, anything anyone says regarding future possible events is instantly speculation and such be taken as such.

Very well, so I'm sorry to have interpreted your post wrong.

Still I disagree with them, I think our disagreement is where the Circle system is worth or not, we will never agree with the other.
This discussion is starting to get personal, so I'm stepping out of it, but it was fun while it lasted =)

[Jaison1986]

First I didn't stated my opinions like fact, like you and Urzon did. Go back and read my previous post where I acknowledge there is the possibility of those things happening, but in my opinion it wouldn't, never stated it as a fact.
Your post fits very well for what you did too, are you going to call yourself a blood hell hypocryte too?

And after your personal insult you are welcone in my ignore list.

 

Yeah, right. As if I would believe that. Lie to yourself if you want. You aways treat your opinions as facts. 

 

And just so you know, I'm no hypocrite, for I don't act like my opinions are universal truth. And I would be one of the first to admit that the sides I support have their faults. But at least I care about a making a world were people learn to understand, rather then to fear and live in ignorance. Were I look for better answers rather then being a tool for a bunch of superstitious religious fanatics because I don't know any better. 

 

Please, feel free to ignore me. For I won't go back in my word, jerks as yourself aren't worthy of the respect anyway. Goodbye and good riddance Boot, I look foward to never talking to you again.

[Urzon]

Very well, so I'm sorry to have interpreted your post wrong.

Still I disagree with them, I think our disagreement is where the Circle system is worth or not, we will never agree with the other.
This discussion is starting to get personal, so I'm stepping out of it, but it was fun while it lasted =)

I wouldn't say that we would never agree with each other. I really only find fault with Vivienne's methods for the most part. The Circles are still very much need, and also the Templars since they are really the only counter measure against magic the population has since the possibly rebuilt Seekers are always going to be fewer in number, but I mostly disagree with Vivienne once again tying both of those groups to the Chantry again.

It's somewhat understandable since the Chantry is really one of the only (mostly neutral) international groups that could possibly manage it all in the different nations, but I think tying the workings and command of both extremely powerful Orders to a single overseer, and possibly a single person (the Divine), is just asking for trouble again.

[Ezra Watcher]

I've not finished the game as i like to make the storey correct to my style so gone about three quarters about 15 times and restarted, but from everything I've done so far it seems that cassandra is the best choice for devine. how to make it happen I'm not sure  but viv would be a disaster she would make things as they were and there would be another rebellion, lil. would not be good either, due to chantry propaganda all the people of thadas would turn against the mages for being totally free and you would end up with another civil war out of fear. cassandra seems to want them to be free to do their own thing on certain conditions and to me the most likely able to avoid another war. (please excuse the bad spelling its been a long day.

[MaxQuartiroli]

I've not finished the game as i like to make the storey correct to my style so gone about three quarters about 15 times and restarted, but from everything I've done so far it seems that cassandra is the best choice for devine.

 

This could also be an impossible task, unless you are so lucky that the choice that you feel more appropriate for your style are the same that make your ideal candidate divine. If it's not like that then you have to choose between playing to get your ideal divine or playing according to your preferences. I also think that Cassandra is the ideal divine but the choice that you have to do to make her divine (ally with templars, exile the wardens, let Celine die and put Gasparde on the throne) are totally the opposite of my ideal ones. On the contrary, it turned out that all my favourite choices (conscript the mages, keep the wardens and reconcile Celene with Briala) are the ones that bring you Vivienne, which I also hate. 

[sim-ran]

That's why I flatout deny that option ever existing.

Me too. It's just flatout unbelievable as an option in that world setting.