220 réponses à ce sujet

[brgillespie]

Well, just think of it as that Soldier class that become basically invincible in the first game. If Shepard can make himself invincible, why hadn't the human race dominated the galaxy already? Reapers, schmeapers. "Hey, Admiral! I can stroll into a nuclear explosion and come out unfazed!" "Sorry, Commander. That's hax, and humanity's too l33t for that." "Awww..."



It's just a computer game.

[Admoniter]

I have yet to play ME2 but from what I've seen the ammo system looks fine. I would've preferred a hybrid system but alas that was not to be.



That said it's laughable that people think ME2s thermal clips make less sense than ME1s passive cooling. As people have constantly stated in these threads and some people continue to ignore passive cooling would have been affected by many factors.

[TheGuv]

Okay. You've got ultra high velocity railguns designed to punch through artificial kinetic shields. You have essentially infinite ammo. You're fighting things in every environment from the surface of a volcano to space.



Heat is going to be a problem. A big one. Your gun can't radiate heat away in high temp environments.

[adam_grif]

The problem isn't that heat sinks don't make sense, it's that it's totally inconsistent with the Mass 1 universe. You can't ever justify it, because it was shown to work perfectly fine and it was a nigh universal system.



Then suddenly everybody changes to something less combat effective that requires more logistical considerations (in the form of heat sinks)? Sorry, you can't sell me on that. The combination system would have made perfect sense because it allows more flexibility without losing performance.

[Torinir]

*sigh*



The problem with the infinite ammo of ME1 is that, with the right attachments, you could have a weapon that could fire constantly without it ever overheating unless you got hit with a tech ability. (AR's or Pistols of Rank 7 [best with the Spectre Master gear] or higher, 2x cooling attachments) It made some abilities almost useless.

[Wolf_in_the_Meadow]

adam_grif wrote...

The problem isn't that heat sinks don't make sense, it's that it's totally inconsistent with the Mass 1 universe. You can't ever justify it, because it was shown to work perfectly fine and it was a nigh universal system.

Then suddenly everybody changes to something less combat effective that requires more logistical considerations (in the form of heat sinks)? Sorry, you can't sell me on that. The combination system would have made perfect sense because it allows more flexibility without losing performance.

This.

It doesn't matter if the original system made any sense, the fact is, however they did it, they did it, and it worked fine for the ENTIRE GALAXY.

It's not about sense, it's about inconsistancy. If in Star Wars, the Jedi suddenyl went back to vibroblades 'cos people decided they were unreliable, despite thousands of years of contrary evidence, people would be like, "WTF??"

[Raltar]

adam_grif wrote...

The problem isn't that heat sinks don't make sense, it's that it's totally inconsistent with the Mass 1 universe. You can't ever justify it, because it was shown to work perfectly fine and it was a nigh universal system.

Then suddenly everybody changes to something less combat effective that requires more logistical considerations (in the form of heat sinks)? Sorry, you can't sell me on that. The combination system would have made perfect sense because it allows more flexibility without losing performance.

This is it exactly.  As I've said many times in this thread, from a gameplay stance, I support the change because the old system made the game less tactical than it should have been.  However, the in game explanation they give is total bunk.

[Sypher_Kyaeon]

You guys do all realize that, despite the futuristic setting, those gun barrels are made of metal, and, as many WWI and WWII soldiers discovered, a hot barrel is not a barrel anymore, it's slag. Dissapating heat away from the barrel as fast as possible with these new heat sinks makes sense from the standpoint that no one wants to have to switch barrels if they can help it. Not to mention, that unlimited ammo in the first game was fun for a few battles. It's like playing Resident Evil 4 and 5, the unlimited ammo (or the Chicago typewriter) was far more useful and less of a game ruining experience only on the higher difficulties. For those of us who let the game stay on Normal so we can enjoy the game without fear of dying too much, it's boring as all holy hell.

[Raltar]

It doesn't matter if that is how it is in the real world. In the Mass Effect universe, they have figured out a way for it to work. It doesn't matter how they did it, only that they did. This is a step back no matter how you look at it.

[Wolf_in_the_Meadow]

It's NOT about how well the game runs in parralel with conventional physics, it's about how well the game runs with it's own established canon.



According to cannon, they took care of this problem, that's fine. That's established. Now they've taken a less efficient system and run with it. It makes no sense.

[Sypher_Kyaeon]

It's not less efficient when put up against a-hole enemy Engineers with the Sabotage power. Why the hell wouldn't you throw away a system that's so easily compromised? I mean, what use is infinite ammo if everyone and their sister can break it with their Omni-Tools? Can you imagine this in actual war? It would be a mssive freaking crapshoot.

Modifié par Sypher_Kyaeon, 26 janvier 2010 - 10:41 .

[Sialboats]

Wolf_in_the_Meadow wrote...
According to cannon, they took care of this problem, that's fine. That's established. Now they've taken a less efficient system and run with it. It makes no sense.

Nope they didn't. One, your weapon was overheating too frequently. Two, your weapon was subject to tech attacks that would render it useless for a long while. Three, the damage the weapon could do had to be limited to compensate for heat dissipation.

Now, the weapon is going to overheat soley on the availibility of thermal clips. If you're out of thermal clips, your gun will overheat. But, the damage likely has been upped massively with the invention of thermal clips. It'd be like firing your weapon with High Explosive rounds in ME1 without your thermal clips avalible. So with a freaking armory on your back, just switch to another weapon. 

So, thermal clips mean better heat mitigation, more damage (theoretically; as in game we'd likely never notice) and immunity to attacks like "Sabotage". With the ubiquitous nature of thermal clips, there really isn't a problem.

It's two steps forward. It's allowing military hardware designers to create more powerful weapons, at the exchange of a more conventional ammo-type system. Only, news flash, humanity should have no problem with this, they've been doing for two and half goddamn centuries. The galaxy loves it as well, it proliferates from the time of it's invention till shep wakes up, and - WHAMMO - new style of combat has emerged.

It's completely believable. Quit your ****ing and enjoy the game, already.

Modifié par Sialboats, 26 janvier 2010 - 10:43 .

[Admoniter]

Now it may seem like a step back to you but I have to disagree. The passive system had it's own flaws, running out of thermal clips is basically the same as having your passive cooling system sabotaged. Both guns become useless for x seconds or until you find new clips. From what I've seen not replicating a scene from rambo and pushing forward should remedy that problem rather quickly.

[Terror_K]

It still doesn't make sense to me to change from a system that has you relying on a resource (i.e. the thermal clips) rather than one that does not. Especially in the vastness of space. I might have been able to understand it if the gun could fire without said clips, albeit constantly requiring the user to pause and wait for cooldowns, but to have people relying on them seems like a big step backwards, even with the codex explanation.

[bigxb0i]

cmon now just enjoy the game

[Sypher_Kyaeon]

THANK YOU! The system from Mass Effect 1 would have been an absolute nightmare for tactical commanders trying to actually win a full-scale battle. All we saw were relatively small squads in combat, and the one time we did hear larger-scale combat (Virmire) Kirrahe was having all kinds of problems. Granted he wasn't used to fighting Geth, but still... Take into account the fact that, as a previous poster pointed out, the weapons will be more powerful and, if Miranda and Jacob walking into battle with normal clothes on is any indication, personal shield tach has to have improved as well.

Modifié par Sypher_Kyaeon, 26 janvier 2010 - 10:50 .

[Andaius20]

I would have been perfectly happy with a hybrid system as was mentioned. Normal cooling as in ME 1 and overheats could be insta-cooled with a change of heat sinks. To balance it they could have made it harder to manage your heat with lots of shooting. And longer cool downs for keeping your hot heat sink in and letting it cool down by itself. Also could have balance the frictionless mods to be less potent thus making sure you can't do the unlimited shooting.



Als ofor those that never seen combat in the vids Shotgun has 15 shots before it's out of "ammo" the heavy pistol has like 20 how much sense does it make to drop your troops into combat with 15 rounds in there gun?

[Kronner]

It makes perfect sense. Also, the new heat-sink (ammo) system is great. Combat is definitely better in ME2 than it was in ME1. No question about that.

[Sypher_Kyaeon]

That's Bioware making the game harder for us. Real battlefield troops would have normal weapons and be dropped into combat with likely an assualt rifle, a pistol, and maybe a heavy weapon, along with a ****eload of ammo for all of them.

[Admoniter]

Sypher_Kyaeon wrote...

THANK YOU! The system from Mass Effect 1 would have been an absolute nightmare for tactical commanders trying to actually win a full-scale battle. All we saw were relatively small squads in combat, and the one time we did hear larger-scale combat (Virmire) Kirrahe was having all kinds of problems. Granted he wasn't used to fighting Geth, but still...

That may be true however, In siege situations like Listening Post Alpha the thermal clip system would ultimatly result in the soldiers deaths. Unless ofcourse you had one person dedicated to the manufacturing of thermal clips. So in that situation it  would be better to only worry about one thing instead of your block of ammo and thermal clips as Terror K pointed out.

[Schneidend]

Man, I hope you guys don't ever take up reading Marvel comics. The retcons over there might give you night terrors.



But, seriously, the codex never covers how the cooling systems work, and neither did the novels. Therefore, now that Mass Effect 2 is out, the cooling systems always functioned as they do now. Gameplay mechanics should pretty much NEVER be taken as to be how the story world functions, unless the game actually tells you as much. Unless, of course, you'd like to believe that smashing trash cans and castle walls really will yield delicious meats that restore health.

[Malcroix]

mewarmo990 wrote...

It's all explained fairly reasonably in the Codex, that mass accelerator firearms technology was thought to have reached a plateau with effectively limitless ammunition, but there was still the problem of overheating (the way guns were in ME1). The Geth came up with a reloadable thermal clip system that is better because you don't have to waste very valuable time waiting for a gun to cool down in the middle of a firefight. Everyone else copied the Geth sometime during the two years Shepard was under reconstruction. Trained soldiers can switch thermal clips in under a second.

That's bull, because:

a) You waste A LOT MORE TIME on reloading and LOOKING FOR NEW CLIPS in the middle of a firefight (yes, it happens, in the most gruesome fights!). This does not even compare to waiting for cooldown in ME1, especially since you could reduce cooldown to almost zero with upgrades.

You are consequently MORE EXPOSED TO ENEMY FIRE, because while you're not killing them, they're killing you (yeah, apparently the enemies all have unlimited ammo firearms from ME1, and so do your squadmates);

c) Not only the reload issue, but the AMMO CAP. I play an Adept. Whenever I use a biotic power in ME2, ALL my powers go into cooldown. So I'm forced to use weapons most of the time. The only weapon which can be used effectively at medium to long range, for the Adept, is the Heavy pistol. Tier 2 heavy pistol (the Carniflex) has a 24 round ammo cap. That's not even enough to last half a fight.

That's the in-universe explanation. The gameplay rationale is obviously to force the player to have more tactical consideration before entering combat, and to promote shooter skill. Still, if you're playing a Soldier and enemies are too far away for you to pick up new clips without getting killed, it really does suck. I haven't had any problems with anyone besides Soldier, since they have powers. Go for the eyes!

That's also bull, because now ME plays like a third-rate no-plot shooter instead of a first-rate Sci-fi shooter/RPG. The limitless ammo mechanic was not "newbish", it was an element of gameplay closely tied to the scientific basis of the ME universe (i.e. the ubiquitous "mass effect" being applied to small arms), and made reasonable sense from what we know today of electro-magnetic accelerators (the weapons of the future, if U.S. Department of Defense is to be believed). Limitless ammo coupled with weapon overheating and various upgrades was actually pretty revolutionary, since 99% of shooters rely on ammo clips. And overheating definitely made you play "tactical", as well as "strategic" (should I put 2 heatsinks and nullify cooldown, or 1 heatsink + 1 damage upgrade to have more killing power with some cooldown, or maybe go with High Explosive rounds and 2 scramrails for maximum single shot damage?) Now instead of all these choices, and feeling like a soldier of the future, you have thermoclips and feel like a contemporary grunt.

Thermoclips were introduced to allure the casual crowd, because that's what they're used to from all those dumb FPS games. And they suck, along with the entire new mechanic surrounding them.

Modifié par Malcroix, 26 janvier 2010 - 10:58 .

[Sypher_Kyaeon]

Keep in mind, also, that normal grunts would not be equipped with the amazing Master Spectre Gear and Xmods we had. They're waaaaaaaaay too damn expensive to be distributed on such a large-scale. Normal soldiers probably overheated way too damn much.

Modifié par Sypher_Kyaeon, 26 janvier 2010 - 11:00 .

[Terror_K]

Exactly. Especially when Thermal Clips are now a new resource that needs to be acquired, managed and that every soldier must have that previously they didn't. Commander Rentola on Virmire already said their supplies were slim when you talked to him... think how much slimmer they'd be or how lacking their offensive would be if they required thermal clips too. They're a thing that can be lost, they're a thing that can be damaged, they're a thing that one has to lug around with them, etc.



It's a thing that may make sense from a gameplay perspective but makes little sense from an in-universe and lore perspective. A step forward and upgrade in game design doesn't necessarily mean it would translate to a step forward and upgrade in real life.



For example, if a ship was heavily damaged and had to make a crash landing on a planet full of varren and/or other dangerous creatures that didn't carry clips, the surviving crew would be left with a limited supply of "ammunition" on a planet filled with dangers that they have no idea how long they'll be stranded on. With the ME1 system, it would take a helluva long time for their weapons to become useless. With the ME2 system they'd be out as soon as their last clip went. And judging from the numbers in ME2, that wouldn't be long.

[Andaius20]

Kronner wrote...

It makes perfect sense. Also, the new heat-sink (ammo) system is great. Combat is definitely better in ME2 than it was in ME1. No question about that.

oh ok next time you go out to fight 30 guys I'll give you 15 rounds to do it with....

From what I've seen so far with reading and seeing it in action, Bioware opted for a "rock paper sissors" type of play. Soem guns work good on barriers, soem work good on Armor and so forth so they basicly force you to continually swapp out weapons for different ones as you fight. If yo ujus tstick with your favorite one your run out of "ammo" fairly quickly. The only guns that holds significant ammo copacity are the AR and submachine guns and later on the upgrade for the AR the LMG. All other guns have something like 25 rounds or less. HWY weapons have there own seperate ammo stocks.

Modifié par Andaius20, 26 janvier 2010 - 11:02 .