220 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolf_in_the_Meadow]

I like how people are ignoring Frictionless Materials, which eliminates overheating in all cases save Tech attacks. Would it not have been a better advance to keep the infinate ammo and simply develop a way to counteract the Tech attack?

[Sypher_Kyaeon]

It's an arms race. The Tech powers would have evolved.

[GODzilla]

Malana74 wrote...

OK, so let me get this straight:  in Mass Effect 1, you essentially had unlimited ammo, but had to worry about your gun overheating with prolonged use.  if this happened, you had to switch weapons, or take cover for a couple of seconds while you waited for it to cool down.

In mass effect 2, they have "improved" this system with reloadable heat sinks..so if you overheat, you just pop in a new one and keep firing. 

But if you run out of clips, YOU CAN"T FIRE YOUR WEAPON AT ALL UNTIL YOU FIND A NEW ONE.

Ammo is no longer unlimited.   if you run out of ammo, you are SOL until you can kill someone and collect the clip form thier corpse, or find a stash somewhere. In other words, in the middle of a firefight, whereas before you could just take cover for a second...now you are S.O.L.

Apparently, weapons technology has moved BACKWARDS since the first game.  Honestly, if i was in a firefight, i'd prefer the old system, wouldn't you?

I think the new ammo system is okay, because:

1.) As others already pointed out, later in ME1 it was possible to completely stop weapons overheating, turning you into a non-stop-firing-machine.

2.) The new system forces you to switch weapons regulary or to use your abilities, so the tons of weapons on your back actually get useful.

3.) The new system makes battle planning, using tactics and party members much more important. You have to plan where to use cover, where to put your henchmen, how to get to new ammo clips while under fire and so on.


And with a little bit of imagination there is even an explanation for the new system: During the two years Shepard was gone some soldiers managed to blew their weapons into their faces, having modified the weapon so that it still fires when overheated. So the Citadel created some new laws to ensure the weapons security.
See...good story.

[Malcroix]

Wolf_in_the_Meadow wrote...

I like how people are ignoring Frictionless Materials, which eliminates overheating in all cases save Tech attacks. Would it not have been a better advance to keep the infinate ammo and simply develop a way to counteract the Tech attack?

What would have been REALLY awesome was to LEAVE the old mechanic, but introduce thermoclips as an OPTION. I.e. if you don't want to deal with overheating you have a choice of using thermoclips. It would make sense in some cases (e.g. Sniper Rifle and maybe Shotgun would benefit), and it could give you the possibility of stuffing your weapon full of heat-heavy damage upgrades and then compensating with thermoclips. Or, indeed, if you were planning to go out against a lot of Techies with Overload, you could equip a weapon with thermoclips.

It would make eminent sense from both the gameplay and the background story points of view. And in marketing terms, it would accommodate ME1 fans and people who like innovations, as well as casual gamers and hardcore FPSers who are accustomed to clip-based shooting.

And it wouldn't be so hard - just leave the stuff from ME1 in, and add all the stuff added in ME2. Some balance tweaks and voila, everyone's happy.

[Darth_Shizz]

 I think some people are just letting their dislike for shooters get the better of them here.

When changing any system, the simplified thought process is tends to be:

Does the lore make sense? 
Will it improve gameplay?

Nine times out of ten, a company will damn the lore (within reason) in favour of a mechanic that improves gameplay; making up a bunch of words that semi-justify a system being implemented, is far easier than attempting to develop a good mechanic, that fits rigidly to the ideas of "lore".

I don't blame them.

I'm happy with their explanation, regardless of holes possibly existing. If it makes for a more challenging and enjoyable game, then why not?

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 26 janvier 2010 - 11:21 .

[Malcroix]

GODzilla_GSPB wrote...
I think the new ammo system is okay, because:

1.) As others already pointed out, later in ME1 it was possible to completely stop weapons overheating, turning you into a non-stop-firing-machine.

Yeah, but by choosing heatsinks or frictionless materials you denied yourself the upgrades which actually increase damage output or give other bonuses (radar, accuracy etc). This distinction could have been emphasized for ME2, forcing the player to choose whether to prefer a constant stream of bullets but lower damage per shot (back-loaded damage/damage over time), or higher damage per shot with overheating (front-loaded/burst damage), or utility
 (radar), or long range (accuracy)... the possibilities are endless.

2.) The new system forces you to switch weapons regulary or to use your abilities, so the tons of weapons on your back actually get useful.

That was the same in ME1 - when your weapon overheated, you could switch to another weapon. And of COURSE weapons did not prevent you from using your abilities in ME1.

3.) The new system makes battle planning, using tactics and party members much more important. You have to plan where to use cover, where to put your henchmen, how to get to new ammo clips while under fire and so on.

No, the new system only gives you LESS CHOICES. Party members, including your character, are 1-trick ponies. You can't really customise their gear, can't focus on specific things to get an advantage for a particular party member in a particular field. Upgrades are primitive, expensive and are applied to all members at once. So you're being forced to spread your resources thin, when in ME1 you could strategically focus resources to play to your strengths and tactics (e.g.: improved biotic amp for Liara, better tech tool for Tali, better sniper rifle for Garrus, better armor for Wrex; while in ME2 you pay huge wads of cash for something like "+10% SMG damage for all party members"). Not to mention all the upgrades! E.g. Wrex is a close combat specialist, and his regeneration is already high, so he'll benefit from a Combat Exoskeleton and Ablative plating; whereas Liara is focused on Biotic powers, so two Medical Exos for her.

Compared to ME1, the new system is CASTRATED in terms of battle planning.

And with a little bit of imagination there is even an explanation for the new system: During the two years Shepard was gone some soldiers managed to blew their weapons into their faces, having modified the weapon so that it still fires when overheated. So the Citadel created some new laws to ensure the weapons security.

See...good story.

Yeah, the only drawback is that during Shepard's entire career in ME1 not a single weapon blew up into his or anyone else's face. Kinda undermines your explanation, right?

Modifié par Malcroix, 26 janvier 2010 - 11:23 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

How did all the kids get hold of this game?



Seriously, all I've seen in first few hours of it release is a bunch of cry babies...



Oh wait of course, that is bound to happen because the decent players that are enjoying it all are probably still playing rather than whining like all the kiddies that got their butt handed to them because they stupidly sprayed ammo like only kiddies know how to and thus ran out of ammo and got their slaughtered.



To quote something Christina Norman said last week, you should never run out of ammo unless you are stupidly wasting it.



Or another way of stating that, learn to play. Someone that had their copy earlier came in with a similar post to this but then later stated he had learned how to use it properly. How about rather than whining about it, you learn to use it too.



You want a game that molly coddles you, go play 'Hello Kitty Isle Adventures' or some other kiddy game.

[Darth_Shizz]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

*snip*

 learn to play. Someone that had their copy earlier came in with a similar post to this but then later stated he had learned how to use it properly. How about rather than whining about it, you learn to use it too.

You want a game that molly coddles you, go play 'Hello Kitty Isle Adventures' or some other kiddy game.

Pretty much sums it up.

The forums for any game tend to be the same in the first two weeks; "OMG DA SHOOTIN SISTEM SUX, Y CANT WE KIK A BALL FASTA?!", "wtf, whose idea was it to remove parry?!", "I don't really enjoy not being able to sprint for longer", etc

Once those 2 weeks pass? People have usually adjusted to the changes, become far more proficient, and suddenly see this "terrible" system, as actually being a pretty sweet improvement.

[0Gabe0]

it does. it m1 there was overheat..now to to keep combat fluid so before overheat you cool down

[Terror_K]

On the other side of things, it usually takes a few weeks for the rose-tinted glasses to wear off.

[Andaius20]

Then I guess you did see her in the xfire live feed clearly run out of ammo for her shotgun after the first encounter with a few badguys. You can no longer use your favorite gun all the time now, you have to constantly swap them around to have rounds to shoot.

[Schneidend]

Andaius20 wrote...

Then I guess you did see her in the xfire live feed clearly run out of ammo for her shotgun after the first encounter with a few badguys. You can no longer use your favorite gun all the time now, you have to constantly swap them around to have rounds to shoot.

Or just use all those fancy schmancy powers that don't use up ammo at all.

[Andaius20]

You also have to run over the dropped heat sink's like power ups so if you miss them or you kill people that you can't get to right away you'll be stuck with low ammo for the next round of fighting.

[Terror_K]

Andaius20 wrote...

Then I guess you did see her in the xfire live feed clearly run out of ammo for her shotgun after the first encounter with a few badguys. You can no longer use your favorite gun all the time now, you have to constantly swap them around to have rounds to shoot.

This is something I'm personally not looking forward to. I liked specifically crafting my characters to use a specific type of weapon and pretty much only that weapon. Yes, sometimes you didn't have the option, but that's part of RPG restrictions. I designed my main Vanguard Shepard to use Pistols and occasionally use Sniper Rifles now and then for long distance enemies, and that's it. I don't want to have to keep flipping between weapons I don't even want to use because I run out of pistol ammo... that's annoying and restrictive. BioWare went on and on about how we can personalise our weapons more to suit our Shepards, but immediately negate that by forcing us to switch between weapons like in a common shooter.

Unless I'm wrong and that's not how the system works.

[Malcroix]

Darth_Shizz wrote...

 I think some people are just letting their dislike for shooters get the better of them here.

I like shooters. In fact, I prefer realistic shooters, which replicate real-world combat (including, of course, ammo clips and reloading).

But Mass Effect is not about WW2, or Vietnam, or Iraq. It's about warfare in the distant future, when prominent scientific advances have been made. It makes no sense, given ME's backstory and the ME1 experience, to suddenly roll back so greatly in terms of weapon technology.

When changing any system, the simplified thought process is tends to be:

Does the lore make sense? 

NO, IT DOES NOT.

Will it improve gameplay?

NO, IT DOES NOT.

Maybe for some people, who are very much accustomed to shooters, clips are easier to accommodate. But ME is not just a run-of-the-mill shooter, it's a sci-fi futuristic game, and "mass effect technology" being actually used in gameplay made you feel like you were really touching upon this great leap in human understanding. This mechanic singled out Mass Effect and made it special. Thermoclips just bring it back to all the other shooters out there, for no reason other than cheap appeasement the lowest common denominator crowd.

Nine times out of ten, a company will damn the lore (within reason) in favour of a mechanic that improves gameplay; making up a bunch of words that semi-justify a system being implemented, is far easier than attempting to develop a good mechanic, that fits rigidly to the ideas of "lore".

ME1 had a working mechanic, which fit lore to a "t". Sure, BioWare could improve balance if they saw fit, but there was no reason to tear it down completely. In fact, as I noted above, it would have made more sense from ALL standpoints to just give the players options of whether or not to use thermoclips (which offer some advantages but also some drawbacks in combat). And there definitely wasn't a need to destroy the upgrade system so completely. The ONLY REAL reason I see behind all this is deliberate dumbing down so that casual gamers won't get scared that this game is "different" from the sludge they're used to, and might even force them to think.

Of course, with this logic leaving both the old mechanic and the thermoclip as options didn't work, because the casuals might get intimidated by the OPTIONS - i.e. having to think and to choose.

It's no wonder every weapon has only ONE upgrade path in ME2, there's only ONE type of armor, NO bonus weapon skills, and classes are severely limited in their skills and weapons they can use. It's done so that people won't have to THINK strategically, and instead focus on the "big choice" on whether to be a power-mongering douchebag or a politically correct goody-two-shoes.

I don't blame them.

Neither do I, actually. Everyone wants to make money, and dumbing down apparently brings more profits than smarting up. ME2 is still an awesome game. Only, it goes farther and farther from its RPG roots into interactive movie + casual shooter territory.

[IndianKJBlue]

It doesn't make sense that your gun can't cool down normally. It is "ammo" because your gun can't shoot without it. I could see maybe having these "thermal" clips be good for faster cooldown, but they shouldn't be required to actually shoot a weapon at all. Doesn't make sense compared to ME1, but eh, not a big deal/

[Malcroix]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

How did all the kids get hold of this game?

Seriously, all I've seen in first few hours of it release is a bunch of cry babies...

And you graduated from kindergarden how long ago? Oh, still writing that thesis on not wetting your pants? Good luck then 8=)

Oh wait of course, that is bound to happen because the decent players that are enjoying it all are probably still playing

You see, when people grow up, they start going to work to make money. Normally, this precludes them from playing for 20 hours per day, unlike children with nothing else to do with their lives.

rather than whining like all the kiddies that got their butt handed to them because they stupidly sprayed ammo like only kiddies know how to and thus ran out of ammo and got their slaughtered.

The game itself is rather easy. I don't think anyone complained about that. The clip mechanic only makes it play STUPIDER. I.e. you're forced to take more risks because you're limited by ammo.

To quote something Christina Norman said last week, you should never run out of ammo unless you are stupidly wasting it.

Going from limitless ammo to thermoclips was a stupid was teof ammo, in the first place.

And of course you don't run out, because you run around collecting clips from corpses, and because in all strategic locations (like behind that barricade) there's always a clip conveniently waiting for you. And in some cases, clips even RESPAWN. Yep, it's that stupid.

Oh, and mind you - everyone else in the world has unlimited ammo. Yep, Shepard's the only one troubling himself with the dumb thermoclips. Both enemies and allies never run out, and from what I've seen, don't reload either.

You want a game that molly coddles you, go play 'Hello Kitty Isle Adventures' or some other kiddy game.

No, you see, that's exactly what's happened with the thermoclips. They've been introduced to make casual gamers feel more cuddly welcome, and to remove the need to THINK about stratetic upgrades and tactical moves. Instead, you just run around shooting and gathering ammo like in all those other shooters.

Anyway, back to work.

Modifié par Malcroix, 26 janvier 2010 - 11:59 .

[GODzilla]

Malcroix wrote...

Yeah, the only drawback is that during Shepard's entire career in ME1 not a single weapon blew up into his or anyone else's face. Kinda undermines your explanation, right?

There is a difference between the word "explanation" and "imagination". I used the latter.

Malcroix wrote...

NO, IT DOES NOT.

NO, IT DOES NOT.

So...how's the game overall? How long have you played it yet? I mean...you have already played it, haven't you? ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png

Modifié par GODzilla_GSPB, 26 janvier 2010 - 02:33 .

[Jim0101]

Massadonious wrote...

Yes, I just love that I was able to trivalize the old mechanic by slapping on frictionless materials and NEVER overheating.

Maybe you'll actually have to remove your finger from the trigger and think about your shots this time around.

Like said in this quote the whole point of changing the mechanics of the games weapon system is to force you to pick your shots. Think about it they added in the ability to shot limbs off and get head shots on targets so if your more accurate you'll do more damage than what you could do in the previous games.

[Cloaking_Thane]

After you reached lvl 40 ish there was zero penalty for holding down RT,



And to those who say yea choice b/t combat optics heat sink, etc and/or damage....Really?



Spectre Gear X was giving 382 damage per bullet, there was no need to upgrade the bullet type.



At least this system makes you think a little bit about combat. I've encountered some battles when I was getting dangerously low but I personally enjoy the use of all powers and weapons for more well rounded gameplay IMO

[SorrowAndJoy7]

Detsu wrote...

It makes sense and the only complaint anyone could make is "I want my unlimited ammo!" which is a complaint that only CASUALS make.

Deal with it.

I am not a casual rpg player, but I guess i'm a casual shooter player... which is why I hate dealing with any form of ammo, i'll spend hours and hours customizing my characters, searching out every quest or little detail I can find in a game. But pfft, deal with ammo restrictions T_T

[lovemetal626]

Detsu wrote...

It makes sense and the only complaint anyone could make is "I want my unlimited ammo!" which is a complaint that only CASUALS make.

Deal with it.

casual players? LOL

considering ME2 is the most streamed line RPG ive played since Fable 2.


dont get me wrong, i love ME2 but theres no denying they "dumded" down a few things to attract a wider audience, (shooter fans)

to compensate, they gave the RPG fans more controll over conversations and custimizations, but in a funny way they took out loot and item collecting.


really have no clue who they were trying to please with this game,

hopefully ME3 is a perfect blend of both ME1 and ME2

[InsanityVoid]

the step makes sense for me.



In me1, rails and high explosive rounds were simply the way to go. Now imagine a firefight where both of the combatants miss, one has to wait for his gun to cooldown (but has nearly unlimited shots), whereas the other simply switches his heatsink and blasts away.



My money's on the guy that can switch out his heatsinks.