304 réponses à ce sujet

[Nerevar-as]

There's also how we define what a god is. Extradimensional being with powers completely out of reach for mortals? A former mortal who ascended through magic beyond mortal limits? Should this second definition be considered a god at all? And in the first case, what makes them worthy of worship beyond power?

[ShadowLordXII]

If the Maker does exist, then he's probably just an ultra powerful spirit that possessed/influenced Andraste.

 

Maybe he's one of the elven Forgotten Ones who wanted revenge against the Tevinters who enslaved the elves and used Andraste and indirectly, the faith that she created to strip away the Imperium's theological control of Thedas.

 

You know what would really be sad/tragic/funny? If what people call the Maker is actually the source of the taint and lives in the Black City.

[SwobyJ]

If the Maker does exist, then he's probably just an ultra powerful spirit that possessed/influenced Andraste.

 

Maybe he's one of the elven Forgotten Ones who wanted revenge against the Tevinters who enslaved the elves and used Andraste and indirectly, the faith that she created to strip away the Imperium's theological control of Thedas.

 

You know what would really be sad/tragic/funny? If what people call the Maker is actually the source of the taint and lives in the Black City.

 

Then let Andrastans live in their delusion, in the hope that they'll conjure up a 'real' Maker deep in the Fade that actually gives a damn about them.

[ShadowLordXII]

Then let Andrastans live in their delusion, in the hope that they'll conjure up a 'real' Maker deep in the Fade that actually gives a damn about them.

 

Nah, let the Chantry burn from the inside out.

[Balek-Vriege]

@Balek-Vriege:

I'd say it depends. Science and technology are driven by perceived limitations. As long as perceived limitations exist, there will be a drive to innovate. So "high magic will prevent science from being developed" is too simple. Can anyone use magic or is it limited to the "gifted"? In that case some un-gifted will eventually try to find out why they can't do it, or how to do the same things with different methods. Has magic observable rules? In that case, eventually someone will find them and apply them, and attempt to find out more about how magic works, or how to push the limits. You know, science started with simple observation: if I do X, Y happens.

 

The only kind of world where this wouldn't happen is a Fade-like world, where everything is shaped directly by the will of its denizens, and where is no limit on the things you can shape except the will of others. I can imagine such an "unlimited [techno-]magic" kind of world, by they're very rare in fiction.

 

As for the effects of the Fade on a culture like the qunari's, that's also debatable. Theories about the world will have to take the Fade into account, but why shouldn't that be possible?

 

Regarding gods being the product of magic, that's plausible, but there is a limit to the kind of entity the collective imagination of believers could create. In particular, any such entity would be bound by the rules of the Fade, and thus a creator god can't be made that way. As you say, it might believe itself to be different, but wouldn't be. Perhaps it's just as well that there is no evidence whatsoever for such a thing... if people could believe their gods into existence, even in a minor way, that would be extremely dangerous. I consider such "gods" weapons of mass destruction beyond anything magic has ever been able to do.

 

I can't really disagree with any of this.  I did ignore the techno-magic route that the less talented may attempt in their ambition to rival more powerful users.  That would promote competition and societal advancement enough to start actually studying magic.

 

Still,  I believe that in many instances those societies would be much slower at understanding the world around them.  Wordly science would be more difficult due to seemingly having two sets of rules governing laws.  It would be a lot easier to follow incorrect hypotheses because of magic.

 

That's why I'm skeptical about the Qunari advancing too much without a lot of difficulty. Developing things like gun powder and cannons is one thing, but developing advanced physics is hard enough without taking something like the Fade and magic into account.

 

Before DAI and osme of the novels, I was pretty sure that spirits were very limited in their type of existence as we had seen .  Post-DAI I'm not so sure. 

 

Cole being the most dangerous precedent.  He was able to cross the Veil without possession and into the real world.  Then he wills himself to be more Human and in fact becomes one if that path is taken.

 

If a spirit that believes itself to be a god performed similar feats, It's possible it could become a true god-like being that's unshackled by the Fade.  The question is whether its possible for spirits to become something they haven't seen or experienced.  There's no real template unlike Cole and his Human transformation.  It would have to be a very specific idea of a certain deity (such as the Maker or Andraste) in order for this to occur I think.

 

The Maker, if he exists, does show evidence and promise as being at least a powerful Pride/Faith spirit.  The same way the Nightmare is basically a powerful Terror/Compassion demon.  The events surrounding Andraste hint to such if you believe he's real.  On the other hand spirits are alien to the taint and vice versa based off previous lore.  So how would he command it as a curse?

 

As to your last sentence, your theoretical concern is basically what happened in the Warhammer 40K universe (40K spoilers ahead).  The warp in 40K was originally a formless place of psychic energy called the Immaterium.  It was eventually "warped" over time by psychic mortal races created by an immortal psychic progenitor race.  The created races, the first being the Eldar (elves), were made for a great war and won, but ironically this lead to their progenitor's downfall as well.  The chaotic, emotional minds of the mortals warped the Immaterium into pretty much DA's Fade but 10000x worse and they couldn't handle or combat it.  The progenitors died out or fled the galaxy shortly after.

 

Fast forward millions of years later and tens of thousands of years into our future.  The Warp continued to grow even more chaotic and its energies ever more present in the real world, causing warp storms in reality (like the rifts in DAI...  but bigger).

 

Eventually a quarter of the Galaxy exploded in a huge Warp Storm because of the birth of the first Chaos god.  It was born from the minds of the decadent, sadistic and hedonistic Eldar Empire that spanned the Galaxy.  The empire was destroyed since the vast majority of the birth/blast was fueled by consuming billions/trillions of Eldar souls in an instant.  More Chaos gods followed and the demons/gods from it have been tearing up the rest of the 40K universe ever since.

 

I guess that's why it's a good thing the Fade, magic and spirits have some limitations in the DA universe.  So far... 

[Heimdall]

I can't really disagree with any of this. I did ignore the techno-magic route that the less talented may attempt in their ambition to rival more powerful users. That would promote competition and societal advancement enough to start actually studying magic.

Still, I believe that in many instances those societies would be much slower at understanding the world around them. Wordly science would be more difficult due to seemingly having two sets of rules governing laws. It would be a lot easier to follow incorrect hypotheses because of magic.

That's why I'm skeptical about the Qunari advancing too much without a lot of difficulty. Developing things like gun powder and cannons is one thing, but developing advanced physics is hard enough without taking something like the Fade and magic into account.

Before DAI and osme of the novels, I was pretty sure that spirits were very limited in their type of existence as we had seen . Post-DAI I'm not so sure.

Cole being the most dangerous precedent. He was able to cross the Veil without possession and into the real world. Then he wills himself to be more Human and in fact becomes one if that path is taken.

If a spirit that believes itself to be a god performed similar feats, It's possible it could become a true god-like being that's unshackled by the Fade. The question is whether its possible for spirits to become something they haven't seen or experienced. There's no real template unlike Cole and his Human transformation. It would have to be a very specific idea of a certain deity (such as the Maker or Andraste) in order for this to occur I think.

The Maker, if he exists, does show evidence and promise as being at least a powerful Pride/Faith spirit. The same way the Nightmare is basically a powerful Terror/Compassion demon. The events surrounding Andraste hint to such if you believe he's real. On the other hand spirits are alien to the taint and vice versa based off previous lore. So how would he command it as a curse?

As to your last sentence, your theoretical concern is basically what happened in the Warhammer 40K universe (40K spoilers ahead). The warp in 40K was originally a formless place of psychic energy called the Immaterium. It was eventually "warped" over time by psychic mortal races created by an immortal psychic progenitor race. The created races, the first being the Eldar (elves), were made for a great war and won, but ironically this lead to their progenitor's downfall as well. The chaotic, emotional minds of the mortals warped the Immaterium into pretty much DA's Fade but 10000x worse and they couldn't handle or combat it. The progenitors died out or fled the galaxy shortly after.

Fast forward millions of years later and tens of thousands of years into our future. The Warp continued to grow even more chaotic and its energies ever more present in the real world, causing warp storms in reality (like the rifts in DAI... but bigger).

Eventually a quarter of the Galaxy exploded in a huge Warp Storm because of the birth of the first Chaos god. It was born from the minds of the decadent, sadistic and hedonistic Eldar Empire that spanned the Galaxy. The empire was destroyed since the vast majority of the birth/blast was fueled by consuming billions/trillions of Eldar souls in an instant. More Chaos gods followed and the demons/gods from it have been tearing up the rest of the 40K universe ever since.

I guess that's why it's a good thing the Fade, magic and spirits have some limitations in the DA universe. So far...

I'd be interested to hear your take on Haakon, being a spirit that has taken on the identity of a god and apparently become very powerful off the belief of the Avvar clans. (Obviously his power is limited, but he doesn't have as many followers as, say, the Maker, certainly not trillions of souls to draw on)

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Avvar Gods come into being not just by belief but I think there is supposed to be special rituals involved in them being reborn. Although, Solas and Cole have banter about "the Maker" when talking about the Fade. I assumed they were referring to some being in the Fade that was created by Andrastian belief. 

[Heimdall]

The Avvar Gods come into being not just by belief but I think there is supposed to be special rituals involved in them being reborn. Although, Solas and Cole have banter about "the Maker" when talking about the Fade. I assumed they were referring to some being in the Fade that was created by Andrastian belief.

Actually the idea of Haakon being reborn sounded exactly like what Solas described as happening when spirits "die". They are scattered, but reform, often embodying the same idea (a deity in this case) but essentially a new spirit without the original spirit's memories. A clean slate as it were. The Avvar may have some rites they perform that could have influence on the spirit, or ensure the result is Haakon, but from Solas' explanation it isn't strictly necessary.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I mention the Avvar rite because I think the veilfire runes in the Avvar camp in Jaws of Haakon describing the cycle of the gods describes there being one, if I understood them correctly.

[Heimdall]

I mention the Avvar rite because I think the veilfire runes in the Avvar camp in Jaws of Haakon describing the cycle of the gods describes there being one, if I understood them correctly.

I'm currently leveling a new character and it's been awhile since I played JoH, I don't really remember those. I'm just saying that a spirit being reborn as a new version of itself is exactly what Solas described as happening naturally.

[Illegitimus]

There's also how we define what a god is. Extradimensional being with powers completely out of reach for mortals? A former mortal who ascended through magic beyond mortal limits? Should this second definition be considered a god at all? And in the first case, what makes them worthy of worship beyond power?

 

I define a god as "any entity that receives worship".  I'm not going to quibble about whether they deserve it.  The issue is not whether the Maker deserves to be worshipped but whether it even exists.  I can't really rule that out.  The Ashes are a pretty strong argument.  

[The Baconer]

Eventually a quarter of the Galaxy exploded in a huge Warp Storm because of the birth of the first Chaos god.  It was born from the minds of the decadent, sadistic and hedonistic Eldar Empire that spanned the Galaxy.  The empire was destroyed since the vast majority of the birth/blast was fueled by consuming billions/trillions of Eldar souls in an instant.  More Chaos gods followed and the demons/gods from it have been tearing up the rest of the 40K universe ever since.

 

Slaanesh? Wasn't it the last Chaos god to be born?

[9TailsFox]

I define a god as "any entity that receives worship".  I'm not going to quibble about whether they deserve it.  The issue is not whether the Maker deserves to be worshipped but whether it even exists.  I can't really rule that out.  The Ashes are a pretty strong argument.  

Ashes can be explained very simply lyrium+ spirits. Same as Avvar gods is only spirits who take form because a lot of people believe. Guardian can be just spirit who take form of someone who lived same as Justinia V form was taken by spirit.

[NWN-Ming-Ming]

What would really make this theory interesting is if you follow some of what Solas has been talking about spirits, built upon the in-game examples of the Fade during the Mage Harrowing and other non-demonic spirit; is the theory that if an abstract concept resonates enough, inspires enough emotion and imprints into mortal memory, it can become manifest and self-aware as a spirit, sometimes a frighteningly powerful spirit such as Nightmare. 

 

Let's look at the spirits embodying concepts such as Valor,  Faith, Justice, or even Mercy, and we can see they seem to be sentient without questioning their identity or origin, they simply 'are' and have always been as long as these concepts have existed in abstraction.  When one then takes the concept of The Maker, a distant and aloof creator who offers a distant hope of redemption through an implied social compact of mortals 'earning worthiness'; it follows that the OP's theory of seeding a philosophy/faith that REWARDS self-improvement and redemption through self-motivated actions rather than reliance on an outside "God" makes sense from a social construct point-of-view.  In effect encouraging this religion then 'weans' mortals from reliance upon the pantheistic "God-Kings/Queens" of the Elven and possibly Ayvvar/Old Gods societies.

 

So what does mean in regards to the Maker?  Isn't it interesting that the one thing that defines the Maker is his spiritual-contract of noninterference?  And given how far his faith has spread, and how it's predicated on spreading to all four corners of the world, wouldn't it be interesting if he's actually become an embodied spirit, perhaps one of the most powerful in existence; but because of the very nature of his abstract-conceptualization he cannot actually aid anyone, particularly the more powerful he grows.  It's a self-imposed cycle, a spiritual perpetual-motion machine of sorts that robs the other "Gods" of any power and influence, but simultaneously removes that power from the equation as it's gained. 

 

In fact, it might be possible that early on in the Maker's developing spiritual coalescence, he had more freedom to partake of the material world -as many of these spirits have in-game, and Andraste was another example of Anders/Justice or Cole?

 

Stuff to think about, kind of neat really. 

[Legion of 1337]

Bioware's refusal to provide evidence that Andraste was right means that every time they reveal more about other religions, which they have no problem revealing things about, (particularly the elves, it would seem) it makes it look like everyone else to some extent knows what's going on and the humans are just being stupid, believing in something that doesn't exist cause they don't like/know what does.

 

Ambiguity really doesn't exist if you explore the veracity of other religions but not Andrasianism. If the former are shown to have some merit, which they are (mostly the elves; maybe the dwarves too if The Descent reveals anything), then there's no reason to think Andrastianism is true. It's not ambiguous, Bioware. Clearly, the Elves are the closest to explaining things as they are. Andrastians are just exercising fantasy.

 

If that's not your intention, which you claim it isn't,  then stop being unambiguous.

[Linkenski]

DA:I showed me enough that I know that there are no real gods in Dragon Age. They're all people who are somehow enchanted or have some type of magic, and how we in today's world live in a world where science is fact, I think the world of Thedas's journey is going to be about the deconstruction of religion and faith by the time we're through 4 and 5.

[Illegitimus]

DA:I showed me enough that I know that there are no real gods in Dragon Age. They're all people who are somehow enchanted or have some type of magic, and how we in today's world live in a world where science is fact, I think the world of Thedas's journey is going to be about the deconstruction of religion and faith by the time we're through 4 and 5.

 

I have no idea what you mean by "real god".  There are certainly real entities of great supernatural power who are or were worshipped.  To my mind that qualifies.  We simply don't know if the Maker is also a real entity.  

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think Bioware must be doing a pretty good job of retaining ambiguity (better than I thought, actually) if one post says DAI is clearly depicting the non Andrastian religions (at least) being largely true and then the very next one says DAI is clearly showing that all Thedosian religion is false. 

[Xelzaar]

I believe in the maker. I have no choice in the matter like most. His name is Yahweh. For the last few months I've been bombarded by visions and dreams and some scary moments. I'm not Pentecostal or Charismatic by denomination. I'm quite conventional however what I see gives me no other choice but to believe. And now I see that this game that I haven't played nor will play revolves around a theme that is very real to me on a personal level. Only by celestial intervention have I even found this game's existence. It scares me to imagine folk playing this game. The Lion of Judah himself has personally given me a task in the real world and then here it is in pixels. Disturbing. How can this parallel even exist but here it is and here I am. That shield, seekers shield I think it's called, has a symbol. Like a star. In real life it's a Miktoarm or star shaped molecule. It's importance is not only physical but spiritual in nature. It involves what science calls 'particle communication' or quantum entanglement. CERN wants it bad but to access what they call the God Particle one has to do it Yahweh's way. The ancient language that empowers the user instant access to matter can only be handled by a particular blood line. Not expensive machines. Modern science is fallen technology. The access point lies in Antarctica under the ice. Scientists call it the Primordial Soup. Nations are digging in this area and those in the know lie about why they are drilling. Demonic powers, I suspect, are trying to stop the bloodline from accessing the point of transfiguration. This baptism that needs to occur will have great importance soon. Something is coming and it will be defeated. Yahweh will win. The bloodline must be allowed to do what must be done. You call him the inquisitor. Just a name. Call him what you will. The great dragon will fall from the sky and he'll be given the key to the abyss and the smoke from the abyss will cover the earth. Enjoy the game peoples while it remains a game. Search for The Lord while he may still be found.

[meganbytez]

my warden a dalish elf she believes in all the elven gods but then she meets leliana and they fall in love and stuff so she learns about the maker/andraste and comes to believe that maybe both hold validity and that thedas should find a way to co-exist. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

This is untrue. You can dismiss a creator god simply because it's a non-explanation by any logic. Simply ask about the origin of the god and you'll see that. If you try to weasel out of if by claiming the creator god is eternal, Occam's Razor would tell you it's more appropriate to apply the "eternal" label to the world in the first place unless there is an evidence for the god.

 

So why does the idea exist in the first place? The answer is that religion is a social phenomenon primarily. At its roots it's not about truth but about community. Myths - including creation myths - are just tools it uses to retain its power. For the same reason it's difficult for many people to discard their religious beliefs. One would think it shouldn't be *that* hard to discard a thoroughly implausible belief, but what it actually means in most cases, how it feels for people, is to remove yourself, or partially remove yourself, from a community of like-minded people you've been comfortable with for years, many of them your friends and family. And that is very hard.

 

So in short, the idea of deities and gods are nonsensical because they can be explained away such as the Evanuris being the first spirits to become Elves in a world without the Veil, the Stone is simply a euphemism for the Titans, the Avvar gods are merely powerful Fade spirits and the Maker in all likelihood, is also a powerful Fade spirit that the Ancient Elves labelled as the Sun.

 

Which means the question about gods and deities is not so much a question of whether they exist or not in Thedas but rather why people foolishly worship these beings and elevate them in the first place. I suppose it is no different than people in real life worshiping Hollywood celebrities and elevating them as stars and idols instead of rationally looking at them - After all, Hollywood actors and actresses are people making  a fool of themselves in front of cameras for lots of money. Another example would be people in real life worshiping and elevating certain leaders, dead or alive, to the point that they are supposed pinnacle of human perfection instead of looking rationally at these leaders - These leaders are just people like us and they have flaws.

 

This neatly segways into what I would like to call the "biological need for worship". It is clear that a behavioral trait such as worship and adulation is something that evolved in primitive times for some reason, not a social construct and that this behavioral trait is now adversely affecting us. For example, think of the genes responsible for human to really love sugar and how it would have served us well in the past and how it is now a contributing factor to the worldwide obesity epidemic. More importantly, since this behavior is in all likelihood, an evolved one, it follows that there must be a portion of people that do not have this behavioral trait - These are the atheists and freethinkers.

[Ghost Gal]

Nope. My Dalish Inquisitor never believed in any of that "Herald of Andraste" or "Maker" nonsense--much less as soon as it was revealed that she got her mark from running into Corypheus and the Orb, and that the woman seen in the rift behind her was Justinia rather than Andraste. By then it was like, "I can't believe anyone still chooses to believe this stuff!"

[Macha'Anu]

Only time I cared was when it was twisted for bad. I'm of the belief if the person who believes is a good person and doesn't bother anyone I'm not going to argue in circles with them on whether I agree with their belief. They mind their own. I mind mind. All my inquisitor took a neutral stance. She or he stayed true to the ideal of tolerance. As I do irl. I have my faith others have theirs. I care not as long as they leave me be. And they do. So I do. Who am I to tell others what to believe?

[Gervaise]

I can still believe in a Maker because those who claim to know about him teach that he doesn't actively participate in the world any more.    So if the questions is, do you believe he could exist?    Then the answer is "yes" but largely irrelevant to my day to day struggle in Thedas.   I cannot offer him worship, entreat him with prayers or stand around singing to him all day long because that would contradict what I have been told about him.   The early passages of the Chant even say that he was dissatisfied with the Fade spirits simply standing around and singing contentedly in his praise; he wanted them to do something.    However, he wasn't happy when they tried to be something they weren't and crossed into the material world either mentally or physically because that wasn't their sphere of control; they had the Fade and other creatures had been created to take action in the Unchanging World, in fact they were deliberately made to never be satisfied and always striving for more.   So it seems to me that to please the Maker, you acknowledge his existence and then get on and be creative yourself.  In the past he apparently actively enjoyed seeing what we could come up with.   We have the potential to do wonders, there are "endless possibilities" and the Maker sat there watching to see "what wonders his children would create".  All that he asked was that we remembered him.    Apparently that is all he still wants, plus people not to abuse their natural gifts and use them to harm others instead of working for their benefit.   Magic is a gift of the Maker and of course could be used to make very great wonders.   Unfortunately its use can also be abused, which he is not happy about.    One group of individuals allegedly misused their magical gifts to break into his house and that had very bad repercussions indeed.   This had the consequence of actually corrupting the house itself, so the Maker was forced to vacate and reside elsewhere.  He still wouldn't intervene in the world, though, because that would go against the parameters he set for himself.   Eventually someone became dissatisfied with all the gods they had been taught to believe in and the state of the world; they wondered if there could actually be a god out there who cared and would listen to the folk who suffered at the hands of the powerful.   The Maker heard them and said the current world was not how it was meant to be; so if everyone rejected the false gods and lived by his moral code, life would seem a lot better for everyone.    This inspired this individual to spread this word of the true Maker of the world and how people should live together and the Maker gave her the knowledge to succeed in this endeavour but ultimately they were betrayed and the Maker decided the world wasn't yet ready for his assistance.   Only when the Maker was universally acknowledged and the moral imperatives adhered to would the Maker return; probably because then everyone would be able to "hear" him.   We wouldn't need his physical presence to make the world a paradise because we would have already created one for ourselves through listening to him.

 

I don't have a problem with believing any of this in the context of Thedas.    What I have had a problem with, even since DAO, is that the Chantry and those other people who claim to follow the Maker, particularly the nobility, blatantly do not adhere to the moral teaching of the Maker.    This seems such a fundamental part of encouraging him to take an active part in the world, that I wonder no one in the history of Thedas since Andraste had brought it up.   It is not about doing a few charitable works; it is in fact about social justice and the powerful not misusing their natural gifts, including magic.   With regard to the latter, the southern Chantry has so twisted the teaching in this respect; it is hardly surprising that the northern Chantry (which pre-dated them) should have rejected it and I find it hard to believe it took as long as 900 odd years for the mages in the south to do the same.    We are never allowed to raise these objections strenuously enough in game and are made to look like the bad guys when we do because those who agree with these ideas end up blowing places sky high.     I would like the opportunity to be the prophet of a new Andrastrian cult that supersedes the old corrupt Chantry, not try to fix the latter with illogical Divines that I cannot imagine would really be considered for election to the post.   However, I am not allowed to do this and only seem to have the option of saying that I believe in the Maker, and thus by implication the authority of the Chantry, or I do not because the two seemingly go together.     So I do not believe the Chantry as an institution has divine authority and if that means that I do not believe in the Maker, then so be it.

[straykat]

I believe in some First being...so I guess it's the Maker. 

 

I doubt he cares though. But that's what the true Chantry teachings are in the first place. They shouldn't be believing in something as silly as a Herald or big interventionist scheme. Even the Guardian of the Sacred Ashes warned that.