Of course there's a Maker in Dragon Age.
His name is David Gaider. He creates your soul, and gives you a destiny, and creates situations where people die for no reason beyond his amusement or higher purpose.
Is he also a drunkard writer releasing the newest "testament" in form of a shitty novel? Maybe it's Varric oO.
Alright people, hear me out on this one.
Once upon a time the Elven 'gods' roamed Thedas, as guardians of the world. Think of them as like a Superman Police Force. All they do is that. But eventually, 7 of them become power hungry. "Why are we just guardians? Can't we rule this world?". The remaining two, also known as Fen'Harel and Mythal, disagree. Fighting breaks out between the two groups.
Those 7 are the Old Gods. Maybe they liked roaming the lands in their dragon-forms or something. But eventually, Fen'Harel and Mythal manage to overcome them, and lock them up, deep beneath the earth. Crisis averted, you should think. But no. One of the imprisoned 'gods', to us known as Dumat, hates sitting in his 2 by 2 cell so he... I don't know, finds a way to get some magisters to break into the Fade and enter the Golden City. Maybe he thought the Dread Wolf ("I bet Fen is sitting there on a throne, the backstabbing dog!") had made that into his throneroom or something. We don't have all that much to go on here. Corypheus's ramblings don't help either. Maybe he just wanted vengeance (he could be Elgar'nan).
And then a Blight happens. Fen'Harel and Mythal are like: "Sh*t." and help that crisis be averted. Then they get together.
"It's not working like this," Mythal says. "We have to come up with a plan."
"Our brothers and sisters still have influence," responds Fen'Harel. "What do you want to do?"
"I propose we bring forth a new faith. One god, a creator... a 'Maker', if you will. We spread this faith to all the corners of Thedas and let the people rise behind it. And then we back down. The hold of our brothers and sisters over this world will be broken, and mankind can start to rule itself."
"Excellent idea," says Fen'Harel. "How do you want to go about doing that?"
"Easy. I rise to power as a southerner, rallying an army behind me. Then I march on the oppressors, the Vints."
"That could work. I'll help."
Andraste... and Shartan. We know what Shartan looks like, according to the Sacred Ashes-questline in DA:O. He was a bald elf.
So these two march on the Imperium, meanwhile spreading the faith of the Maker. And, also just like they planned, that is where Andraste is betrayed by Maferath (who is influenced by the cunning trickster Shartan), and dies. The world now has a prophet, and the Chantry will be born.
"What are you going to do after, Mythal?"
"Thinking of retreating to the wilderness. You?"
"I might roam the lands. Maybe visit the Fade a few times, live the memories of the people. I could use a vacation."
"Hopefully it will be a long time before someone tries to rule like a god again."
"Hopefully."
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Now, quick, someone point out the flaws in my theory before I turn it into fanfiction.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Alright people, hear me out on this one.
Once upon a time the Elven 'gods' roamed Thedas, as guardians of the world. Think of them as like a Superman Police Force. All they do is that. But eventually, 7 of them become power hungry. "Why are we just guardians? Can't we rule this world?". The remaining two, also known as Fen'Harel and Mythal, disagree. Fighting breaks out between the two groups.
Those 7 are the Old Gods. Maybe they liked roaming the lands in their dragon-forms or something. But eventually, Fen'Harel and Mythal manage to overcome them, and lock them up, deep beneath the earth. Crisis averted, you should think. But no. One of the imprisoned 'gods', to us known as Dumat, hates sitting in his 2 by 2 cell so he... I don't know, finds a way to get some magisters to break into the Fade and enter the Golden City. Maybe he thought the Dread Wolf ("I bet Fen is sitting there on a throne, the backstabbing dog!") had made that into his throneroom or something. We don't have all that much to go on here. Corypheus's ramblings don't help either. Maybe he just wanted vengeance (he could be Elgar'nan).
And then a Blight happens. Fen'Harel and Mythal are like: "Sh*t." and help that crisis be averted. Then they get together.
"It's not working like this," Mythal says. "We have to come up with a plan."
"Our brothers and sisters still have influence," responds Fen'Harel. "What do you want to do?"
"I propose we bring forth a new faith. One god, a creator... a 'Maker', if you will. We spread this faith to all the corners of Thedas and let the people rise behind it. And then we back down. The hold of our brothers and sisters over this world will be broken, and mankind can start to rule itself."
"Excellent idea," says Fen'Harel. "How do you want to go about doing that?"
"Easy. I rise to power as a southerner, rallying an army behind me. Then I march on the oppressors, the Vints."
"That could work. I'll help."
Andraste... and Shartan. We know what Shartan looks like, according to the Sacred Ashes-questline in DA:O. He was a bald elf.
So these two march on the Imperium, meanwhile spreading the faith of the Maker. And, also just like they planned, that is where Andraste is betrayed by Maferath (who is influenced by the cunning trickster Shartan), and dies. The world now has a prophet, and the Chantry will be born.
"What are you going to do after, Mythal?"
"Thinking of retreating to the wilderness. You?"
"I might roam the lands. Maybe visit the Fade a few times, live the memories of the people. I could use a vacation."
"Hopefully it will be a long time before someone tries to rule like a god again."
"Hopefully."
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Now, quick, someone point out the flaws in my theory before I turn it into fanfiction.
The flaws, eh? Not sure. The only thing that comes to mind is that the Maker might've already had precedent in Tevinter, I think. I could've sworn the whole flaming sun motif was part of this god's cult as well.. but maybe I'm just making this all up. haha.
Maybe someone knows what I'm talking about. If it's true, then Mythal didn't just create the Maker from scratch.
The flaws, eh? Not sure. The only thing that comes to mind is that the Maker might've already had precedent in Tevinter, I think. I could've sworn the whole flaming sun motif was part of this god's cult as well.. but maybe I'm just making this all up. haha.
Maybe someone knows what I'm talking about. If it's true, then Mythal didn't just create the Maker from scratch.
Oh, it could always be that Fen and Mythal tried to have this faith become #1, but it never really succeeded until they went with the Andraste-plan. Or maybe they just took a certain cult's fake god and decided to run with that.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Oh, it could always be that Fen and Mythal tried to have this faith become #1, but it never really succeeded until they went with the Andraste-plan. Or maybe they just took a certain cult's fake god and decided to run with that.
Oh wait, here's another flaw. The mother and childhood friend in the Sacred Ashes quest. The mother knew Andraste was destined early on. Are you trying to say Mythal started this whole scheme by living as an infant?
In any case, the Chant had some good lines.. even if it was fabricated.
In terms of my "official" Inquisitor... At the beginning of the game he believed quite firmly in the Elven pantheon but was experiencing some confusion and doubt due to the golden figure that rescued him from the Fade. Andraste, his imagination, or some kind of fever dream? He still went out of his way to say that he wasn't the Herald but eventually stopped doing so because of what it seemed to mean to the people even if he had his own doubts. On top of that, it suited his own ends and those of the Inquisition since it meant that people would more readily overlook his heritage.
Post Flemeth/Mythal reveal, I think he's probably more confused than ever. He still doesn't believe in a Maker since the golden figure was revealed to be Justinia but moreso about the Elven pantheon. Were they actually gods or were they powerful rulers who've just had all of this mythology built up around them?
My own belief in terms of the story? I think the Maker is largely a construct but I'm not entirely sure since the whole history of the Chantry, Andraste, and Thedas's pre-Andrastian history escapes me at the moment.
I do, however, believe that the Elven pantheon and the Old Gods exist but not quite in the capacity of being actual divine figures. My belief in that is primarily because we've seen Fen'Harel and Mythal. The Old Gods themselves could just be some of the Elven gods under a different name since, as far as I can recall, Tevinter based quite a bit of their own society off that of the Elves'. We probably won't really know until a game or two from now.
This is going to be a long wait.
Oh wait, here's another flaw. The mother and childhood friend in the Sacred Ashes quest. The mother knew Andraste was destined early on. Are you trying to say Mythal started this whole scheme by living as an infant?
In any case, the Chant had some good lines.. even if it was fabricated.
Hmmm... maybe Mythal just body-jumped into some infant? I don't know how that god-stuff works exactly. It's a great question, though.
Whenever it comes to divines and gods in fiction I believe if they're concrete like in Shin Megami Tensei where you can basically say howdy to Thor and then he'll smash your face in for your insolence.
When it comes to stuff like the maker where no concrete evidence of face smashing is given I default to worshiping whatever works as currency when I roleplay.
The elven god kings though... They seem an interesting bunch. Also the dragons going roar. I wonder for how much I can sell their stuff...
OP, in short: after Inquisition, there is no more or less reason to believe in the Maker than before.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
When it comes to stuff like the maker where no concrete evidence of face smashing is given I default to worshiping whatever works as currency when I roleplay.
That's kind of funny. Reminds me of that movie with Nick Nolte.. where he played a sports scout. Every school he went to, he changed his personality or religion to be appealing.
That's kind of funny. Reminds me of that movie with Nick Nolte.. where he played a sports scout. Every school he went to, he changed his personality or religion to be appealing.
That actually sounds like a smart idea. It actually reminds me of my first playthrough where I pleased everyone with lies. Lotsa lies. Just to try and keep everyone alive and happy. Yes Solas freedom for EVERYBODY especially mages! Oh what was that Vivs? YES! CIRCLES FOR EVERYBODY! Scummy but it did work.
On the other hand I do believe the Black city exists, I think we actually see it.
But mostly I just wanna loot the place and take/ sell everything not nailed down.
Someones gonna be dumb enough to buy the stuff I loot.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
That actually sounds like a smart idea. It actually reminds me of my first playthrough where I pleased everyone with lies. Lotsa lies. Just to try and keep everyone alive and happy. Yes Solas freedom for EVERYBODY especially mages! Oh what was that Vivs? YES! CIRCLES FOR EVERYBODY! Scummy but it did work.
On the other hand I do believe the Black city exists, I think we actually see it.
But mostly I just wanna loot the place and take/ sell everything not nailed down.
Someones gonna be dumb enough to buy the stuff I loot.
To each their own. I can't play that way especially at first. More like after a dozen playthroughs and I'm just min/maxing.
OP, in short: after Inquisition, there is no more or less reason to believe in the Maker than before.
Until Bioware say that the maker does in fact exist (which they won't)
Until Bioware say that the maker does in fact exist (which they won't)
I read a hilarious "theory" on the old BSN which was convinced that in the final battle in DA3 that the Maker would come down and help us out in the final fight against Flemeth 
I read a hilarious "theory" on the old BSN which was convinced that in the final battle in DA3 that the Maker would come down and help us out in the final fight against Flemeth
Wait.... THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED?!
Alright people, hear me out on this one.
Once upon a time the Elven 'gods' roamed Thedas, as guardians of the world. Think of them as like a Superman Police Force. All they do is that. But eventually, 7 of them become power hungry. "Why are we just guardians? Can't we rule this world?". The remaining two, also known as Fen'Harel and Mythal, disagree. Fighting breaks out between the two groups.
Those 7 are the Old Gods. Maybe they liked roaming the lands in their dragon-forms or something. But eventually, Fen'Harel and Mythal manage to overcome them, and lock them up, deep beneath the earth. Crisis averted, you should think. But no. One of the imprisoned 'gods', to us known as Dumat, hates sitting in his 2 by 2 cell so he... I don't know, finds a way to get some magisters to break into the Fade and enter the Golden City. Maybe he thought the Dread Wolf ("I bet Fen is sitting there on a throne, the backstabbing dog!") had made that into his throneroom or something. We don't have all that much to go on here. Corypheus's ramblings don't help either. Maybe he just wanted vengeance (he could be Elgar'nan).
And then a Blight happens. Fen'Harel and Mythal are like: "Sh*t." and help that crisis be averted. Then they get together.
"It's not working like this," Mythal says. "We have to come up with a plan."
"Our brothers and sisters still have influence," responds Fen'Harel. "What do you want to do?"
"I propose we bring forth a new faith. One god, a creator... a 'Maker', if you will. We spread this faith to all the corners of Thedas and let the people rise behind it. And then we back down. The hold of our brothers and sisters over this world will be broken, and mankind can start to rule itself."
"Excellent idea," says Fen'Harel. "How do you want to go about doing that?"
"Easy. I rise to power as a southerner, rallying an army behind me. Then I march on the oppressors, the Vints."
"That could work. I'll help."
Andraste... and Shartan. We know what Shartan looks like, according to the Sacred Ashes-questline in DA:O. He was a bald elf.
So these two march on the Imperium, meanwhile spreading the faith of the Maker. And, also just like they planned, that is where Andraste is betrayed by Maferath (who is influenced by the cunning trickster Shartan), and dies. The world now has a prophet, and the Chantry will be born.
"What are you going to do after, Mythal?"
"Thinking of retreating to the wilderness. You?"
"I might roam the lands. Maybe visit the Fade a few times, live the memories of the people. I could use a vacation."
"Hopefully it will be a long time before someone tries to rule like a god again."
"Hopefully."
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Now, quick, someone point out the flaws in my theory before I turn it into fanfiction.
That's a good theory. But you could just as easily spin it so that the Maker is involved. Why would the Magisters go to the Golden City? That's your weakest point. I'm pretty sure the Old Gods and the Elven Gods are one in the same, but who make the Golden City? Why was it blackened. The Maker could easily be a "god" which created the Elven Gods. Maybe that's their name for him.
That's a good theory. But you could just as easily spin it so that the Maker is involved. Why would the Magisters go to the Golden City? That's your weakest point. I'm pretty sure the Old Gods and the Elven Gods are one in the same, but who make the Golden City? Why was it blackened. The Maker could easily be a "god" which created the Elven Gods. Maybe that's their name for him.
That is true, but it does complicate things a lot more as we don't really have any real evidence of the Maker existing. Maybe the Golden/Black City held a power that Dumat wanted. Maybe it being corrupted and blackened, carrying the Blight (perhaps?) was exactly what Dumat wanted. For it could give him an army to reclaim the world that was lost to him. Though yes, that's not a strong theory either.
The Fade itself is something I of an unknown for me, and thus I didn't touch it as much in the theory as I'd have liked. It's quite possibly connected to the elven orb, though, and (red) lyrium, yet there's so much unknown here that it's hard to come up with something plausible.
That is true, but it does complicate things a lot more as we don't really have any real evidence of the Maker existing. Maybe the Golden/Black City held a power that Dumat wanted. Maybe it being corrupted and blackened, carrying the Blight (perhaps?) was exactly what Dumat wanted. For it could give him an army to reclaim the world that was lost to him. Though yes, that's not a strong theory either.
The Fade itself is something I of an unknown for me, and thus I didn't touch it as much in the theory as I'd have liked. It's quite possibly connected to the elven orb, though, and (red) lyrium, yet there's so much unknown here that it's hard to come up with something plausible.
Seems pretty clear to me that Dumat one of the forgotten ones/old gods was trying to use the Magisters. Was attacking the Golden/black city simply an attempt to attack the home of the Elven Gods or was it the place that held the key to their release? Was the blight in the city or simply reaction to blood magic and it mixing. Certainly lots of room for fun speculation and for future games to reveal more.
Think there's mixing of two different "definitions" of what god means/is and that's confusing part of the talk.
One takes it somewhat as the Abrahamic religions kind, which is human construct and is based around a belief, or faith.
The other just takes the literal definition, common in fantasy worlds, which is a material fact. As some great man once said: "Gods are selfish beings who fly around in little red capes and don't share their power with mankind. "
The first goes quite well with the Maker thing as long as you remove it from any and all fade/spirit/demon/golden city/old gods/whatnot connection. It's overall very similar to our reality, just contextualized to this fantasy world cultures and history. It's an idea, a construct of society, a belief.
The other is what we actually experience when playing DA, that is, "gods" are nothing but beefed up super-beings, usually old school but not always. They can be talked to directly (and with witnesses, which is what matters really), touched, killed and looted and even mounted up on a wall as a trophy. Typical fantasy kind of stuff. Taken this way, the Herald is way more a "god" than Cor and this very early on.
Usually you don't see the two together, that's why DA spin on it is neat, but you gotta know which definition you use when you talk about all this.
Does the maker exist?
Everything about it so far points toward a 100% human construct like we have on our little planet, with myths and legends only boosted to a new level because of the material realities of this fantasy world (fade, dragons), but still nothing else, and that's what makes it very interesting, all interpretations and the like. We can relate very easily since a lot of the themes and discussions are close to what we had and have ourselves (well, Mediterranean cultures anyway) and it's also infuriating because..well...it's a lot easier to kill a factual god-like being than an irrational (meant literally here, as in, not based on a factual rational) belief. While you can very easily win against the likes of the "villains" we have in the game (kill their boss or show more power, very binary process really), you cannot do anything against the real crazies like Leliana, Cassandra and all that, apart maybe hoping you can talk them down a bit but most of the time it's like a brick wall, with their belief warping around any new reality to fit nice and easy without changing the core of it.
What about the golden city and all that jazz? Oh, it exists I'm sure, but that's just fade/material world mumbo jumbo with spirits/demons/elder gods/power freaks goofing people around and feeding them nice stories to fit with the belief one way or another. We had the exact same kind of stuff on earth: Crusades, with powerful people exploiting the blind faith and ignorance of others for their own reasons/gains, with Jerusalem actually being know by that very same name. Fact that it's all pretty much copy/paste (unlike all other god/old god references and whatnot) really seem to indicate, to me, that there's no maker and whatnot.
Doesn't matter though, the "belief" of the Maker is WAY, WAY more powerful than anything else the fade, mages and whatnot can throw around. Just look at that poor sister in the future thing. She's facing actual, material minions of a physical god-like being she's probably met face to face and seen the power of for a year, with the entire world in pieces, and she tells her torturers to go f themselves...What can you do against THAT!...
...well, you can very easily manipulate it to do crazier **** Cory ever did, that's what... 
Maybe they support the Andrastian belief for it allows humanity to rule itself without any divine ruler like the Old Gods have been? Could explain why Solas seems to hate the Dalish because of them clinging to the old ways and gods, and letting those legends dictate their lives.
I do recall a banter where Solas seems to actually like the idea of the Maker, even if he doesn't like the Chantry itself.
Seems pretty clear to me that Dumat one of the forgotten ones/old gods was trying to use the Magisters. Was attacking the Golden/black city simply an attempt to attack the home of the Elven Gods or was it the place that held the key to their release? Was the blight in the city or simply reaction to blood magic and it mixing. Certainly lots of room for fun speculation and for future games to reveal more.
Well yeah, it's pretty clear that he was using them. For me, what I like the most is the thought that he's trying to get revenge for what Fen'Harel and Mythal (according to my earlier theory) have done to him... which could make him Elgar'nan, the elven God of Vengeance. But what he was trying to get from the Golden/Black City, is what I'm not so sure of. Maybe it's as easy as him knowing the 'Blight' is to be found there, maybe in the form of a lyrium corruption, and him wanting to use that as a weapon to enact his vengeance with.
Doesn't matter though, the "belief" of the Maker is WAY, WAY more powerful than anything else the fade, mages and whatnot can throw around. Just look at that poor sister in the future thing. She's facing actual, material minions of a physical god-like being she's probably met face to face and seen the power of for a year, with the entire world in pieces, and she tells her torturers to go f themselves...What can you do against THAT!...
Which is precisely why I theorized about Fen'Harel and Mythal supporting the religion of the Maker and the belief in him. For belief in a 'real' god who can rule over mankind, like Corypheus wanted to be, can be very dangerous. Give humans religion with an absent god and that can be a very powerful thing.
Though I'm not sure if the definitions of a god really matter here. For all we know, the Maker could have been exactly what Fen'Harel and Mythal are, but just their dad, and they killed him at one point. A bit like Zeus did with his father, and his father with his own father.
I do recall a banter where Solas seems to actually like the idea of the Maker, even if he doesn't like the Chantry itself.
Well, it's interesting to look at Solas's banter and opinions in conversation as it can provide a lot of insight. Let's assume my theory is correct here, and take a look at two of Solas's opinions.
- Solas seems to dislike the Dalish. "They live in the past", that sort of thing. This could mean that he wants them to stop looking back to a time when the 'gods' (as in, his brothers and sisters - the Old Gods) walked among mortals, and especially stop trying to get back to such an era.
- Solas hates the Qun. In my theory, Fen'Harel and Mythal spread the Andrastian faith so that humanity can be free from the clutches of 'real gods', like the Old Gods, and utilize that freedom to 'rule themselves'. According to Solas, the Qun takes away such a freedom and turns men and women into "mindless, soulless drones." Which is not at all what he wanted.
Why is it that when everyone talks of the various gods and goddess, they only talk of the Elven and old gods? why not the Avvar's gods?
Why is it that when everyone talks of the various gods and goddess, they only talk of the Elven and old gods? why not the Avvar's gods?
Well, we could also talk about the people that worshipped the actual Blight itself, but something like that is rather... minor. The Avvar religion is of little importance when compared to that of the elves, the Old Gods and the Chantry, and those are ones that we know a whole lot more about.
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