304 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

No, because the setting is supposed to be ambiguous on whether or not the gods are real, especially the Maker.

As far as I'm concerned, ambiguity leans towards false. It means he's not necessary to explain things.

[M Hedonist]

I go with Occam's Razor here. So, no.

[BattleVisor]

Yes of course the Maker is real. There is always a creator whose aspect is being the uncreated. 

 

But the chantry seems just like your standard organised religion, and I'm more in line to think that Andraste was a normal woman, (perhaps divinely inspired), which is the Tevinter Belief. 

[TheLittleBird]

The first Blight ended in the same year as Andraste was born, which makes this theory a little weird I guess. Why would the elven gods have waited so long after they imprisoned the Old Gods to start spreading their word? Especially after their people, the elves, lost literally everything to the Tevinter Imperium who worshipped the Old Gods. The timeline just doesn't sit right for me sorry.

 

Because they thought imprisoning them was the end of it, until the Blight came and they had to deal with that in some way... and then had the plan for whole Andraste-thing?

[KelaSaar]

My Inquisitor had always believed in a non-interventionist Maker, so when all the Herald of Andraste stuff started it raised all sorts of uncomfortable questions for her about why the Maker had decided to get active now and not during any of the other million horrible bad things that happened to Thedas.  Then Adamant happened and cleared that up, so she could go right back to believing what she always did.  

 

At the end of the day, so far as the Chantry is concerned,her attitude tends to be who cares if we change some things, or break the rules, or have complete doubt that the Maker exists. We can still work together to make this our paradise planet.  But that also might be because I just saw the Book of Mormon    

[NugHugs]

With the emphasis on your Inquisitor's status as "Andraste's Herald" and people pretty much insinuating they think you're a god or pretty close to one, I think BioWare is preparing us to accept that the "gods" in DA were mere mortals with a lot of power and influence.

 

It's like they're trying to show the player how easy it is for characters in the DA universe to rationalize an individual's seemingly incomprehensible power as being divine. Solas even said that he didn't believe that they were actually gods.

[Medhia_Nox]

Yes, I believe there is a "Maker" type being on Thedas - interestingly, concerning the Maker, as Solas himself says. 

 

"A true god would not have to prove himself." 

[Lordamion]

I do believe in a force, higher than any mortal in the universe, but, its not necesary mean that it has to be a mortal/physical thing. Furthermore, i do believe that the maker itself its a clear reference to the faith of the people. Otherwise, it just left so many holes that its imposible for me to believe, for example:

 

- If the maker do actually exists as a god, why does Qunaris doesn`t believe he exist? they are part of the world, and they have a way diferent think about the beginning of the world.

 

- The world itself exist by far a lot more time than the maker itself (or her first review in the world). Chantry, Andraste, and the story of The maker exist since like 1.000 years, while the world of thedas exist by a lot more time, furthermore, before the maker, people have already believes in other deities/gods.

 

- If the maker actually exist, the chantry tell us that he first created the fade, with creations of herself on it. Those creations were able to shape the world around them, with just think on it. They weren`t able to do this task, so the maker made the physical world, with all the living things, including the races on it, they were created with awareness and creativity. Because of that the creatures of the fade feel jelaus and make it posible to use the fade as a place for the living things of the physical world to enter in his dreams, and after that, spirits and demons were created as a simple mirror of the emotions of them, and the fade where shaped as a mirrior of the memories of them.

After that tell, the chantry say that the maker no longer hear us, because of the greed of the humans to physical reach the fade, corrupting the golden city and creating the blight at the same time.

 

SO, why the hell "The Maker" do actually create both worlds (or allow interaction between each other), IF he will PUNISH his creations?. And (sorry here if I actually harm any catolic on the forum). IT IS almost the same history of adan and eva in the Eden, who where punished because they desobeyed God, taking the fruit, and creating the original sin.

 

Both, chantry AND "the so called maker" are none but a method of controll over the people, created AFTER the first inquisition, referenced in the actual game as a BLOODY as hell time, in a decadent state of world, the same as decandent as it was when the Holy bible where created, based on a "pick n choose" of the old testament, and tales of the 13 apostles (and an a edit of those tales, and yes, I wrote 13 apostles). Hello "Chant of light" by the way.

 

What i think about the reference of a "Maker" are close to "maker of a new faith, a new religion, a new world state. A new way of keep everything to fall apart".

 

Faith is the most powerfull creation of both, thedas an actually our world, and I feel that the writers of bioware do a Exellent job incluiding this to the game, its one of the most beatifull (story telling speaking) method to bring "life" to a game.

 

I thinik that a more apropiate question than "do you believe in the maker?" would be "Do you have faith in Andraste, and his strory?"

[wright1978]

I am very much getting a Raymond feist feeling regarding the elven gods. In his universe the Valheru were Demi-gods who rode dragons and the elven race were their subjects/slaves(who worshipped them as gods) before the valheru eventually warred with the heavens themselves and got locked out of the world. Personally I'd be really keen to see the chaos of their return, which is something I longed for in feist's universe.

[atamajakki]

The Maker is real, but Not A Nice Thing; I fully believe that the Black City is a prison for His nastiness.

[Meraxes]

No, I don't.

 

Is it possible that there's a creator of some sort? Yes, but I don't believe it's the entity the chantry is worshipping. Andraste probably did hear something (or someone), but I find it far more likely that it was a powerful spirit attracted by her prayers rather than the creator of whatever universe Thedas resides in.

[Frybread76]

No, I don't think the Maker as an omnipotent being existed in DA.

 

But, I do think Andraste existed and was either a magic-user or some kind of priest or prophet who had contact with a super-powerful spirit from the Fade.  Maybe that's what the Maker was - a Fade spirit on a level far beyond what we've yet seen?  Not necessarily the creator of Thedas, but powerful enough to have exerted influence on the mortal world when it answered Andraste's prayers before disappearing.

[Medhia_Nox]

It's interesting that a creator god who also doesn't micromanage automatons... is evil to many people.

 

If the Maker exists on Thedas - and he created mortals with a function to "imagine" as the Chant says - micromanaging would defeat the purpose... fact over faith would defeat the purpose.  The presence of the Maker as fact - would defeat the purpose. 

 

A present Maker of fact - would be the evil Maker - because free will would be nullified.

[Heimdall]

- If the maker do actually exists as a god, why does Qunaris doesn`t believe he exist? they are part of the world, and they have a way diferent think about the beginning of the world.

Okay, I just read this part, but... How is that a hole? How is the Qunari not believing in him somehow a point against his existence?

[Estelindis]

Following the events of Inquisition, the Maker's existence remains ambiguous in-game.  In future titles, I believe it'll stay that way.  What matters is that we have the ability to roleplay faith or a lack of it in various ways.

[frylock23]

Since the Maker is supposed to be an all-powerful being who created the universe of Thedas and then threw a divine hissy-fit and turned his back on his creation when the magisters broke into his city and has more or less been indifferent ever since, I don't see how what happened in DA:I made a difference either way when it comes to that.

 

The only one in the Chantry canon of belief who would have been inclined to move on behalf of Thedas was Andraste and it was left ambiguous as to whether or not the spirit you see in the Fade as the Divine was or was not actually her. It is pointed out that spirits are not always as they appear in the Fade, and the spirit herself points out that it's what you prefer to believe. So the question is what you think: was it the spirit of the Divine lingering to help or was it something else?

[Daerog]

My canon heroes are all human, and they are all Andrastian. Warrior Hawke was the least involved and was slightly indifferent but held to disliking blood magic (which happily worked out b/c he is very anti-blood magic in DA:I), my Warden mage was generally Andrastian and so became involved with Leliana, and my Inquisitor mage was a Loyalist.

 

I really liked how much you could RP with faith in Inquisition, either a lot of faith, no faith, or somewhere in between. I think it added more drama, at least for my canon playthrough; being able to call out "I am the Maker's chosen!" to Cory in the last battle as my character's final acceptance and embrace of his role in history was awesome.

 

Still fun to play as believers in the Stone or the Creators.

 

If anything, the events of DA:I made me less likely to play as a believer in the Dalish tradition of the Creators, but it didn't do anything about me playing an Andrastian for future games or playthroughs.

[phaonica]

A jerk because of what? "Abandoning the world" when said world took the ****** on him?

Giving Andraste her powers to fight Tevinter, yes such a jerk.

 

Yes, because he "abandoned the world" effectively punishing everyone for something that a few did.

[Lordamion]

Okay, I just read this part, but... How is that a hole? How is the Qunari not believing in him somehow a point against his existence?

 

 

As i understand "The maker" (refering to a All mighty god, creator of all existence), it doesn`t matter if u are qunari, elf or human, you will be part of his creation. Nothing and nobody have an explanation for the Qunaris to exist, nor the chant of light, nor the chantry, and for what I have read (just the codex of the games, and the games itself) Qunaris and the Qun as religion, arrive to Thedas from a far away land to the north, even so, There is no "one single creator" for them, just a Unknown race, vaguely described as a barbarian and highly chaotic, predecesor to the qunaris. Wich was the reason for the Qun to be made.

 

By a hole, i meaning that, qunaris have nothing to do with the Maker.

 

 

Edit: My english is a disaster xD

[phaonica]

If the Maker exists on Thedas - and he created mortals with a function to "imagine" as the Chant says - micromanaging would defeat the purpose... fact over faith would defeat the purpose.  The presence of the Maker as fact - would defeat the purpose. 

 

A present Maker of fact - would be the evil Maker - because free will would be nullified.

 

It's an interesting idea, that the Maker exists and is present, but that the people are empowered through his not being active. The Chant doesn't seem to empower people, though; it seems to encourage people to beg for the Maker to return to an active role.

[frylock23]

That's not really a hole though. That's the same as saying because some people on earth didn't spawn from the Judeo-Christian family of religions that there is some hole in that theological approach. Not really. It's still all a matter of faith and belief. For all they know, the qunari could still be children of the Maker of children of his children the same way everything else in the is.

 

Did the Tevinter or the elves of old have a belief in the Maker? Of course not, they had the Old Gods and the Elven pantheons to have faith with. None of it means that the Old Gods, the Elven Gods or the Maker are any less real just because the qunari have their own form of belief. After all, we know Fen'Harel and Mythal at least are/were very real, but the qun doesn't allow for them, either.

[Ashagar]

It's an interesting idea, that the Maker exists and is present, but that the people are empowered through his not being active. The Chant doesn't seem to empower people, though; it seems to encourage people to beg for the Maker to return to an active role.

 

Yes however it has noted in game by a reverend mother no less as well as others that the chant had been altered later by numerous times, as well as parts being cut like those dealing with elves after the war with the dales and some parts even could have even been misheard when it was first sung.

[azanimefan]

I've done a lot of thinking about divinity in Dragon Age.  And come to some general conclusions.  

 

1) the elven gods were just ancient elven heroes... sorta similar to paragons... who went to sleep (old elves were supposedly immortal, as was discussed, many would "go to sleep" when they grew weary of this life).  Interestingly, they seem to have an almost organic relationship with the fade, and some of the most interesting insight into the fade is explained when you flee into it in DA:I.  It's observed that the fade is influenced by the "spirit" of the living world... and it's influenced far more powerfully by people who are physically inside the fade ~ which seems to completely validate the story about the golden city becoming the black city and the nature of the fade changing/altering when the magisters attempted to physically enter the fade.  I suspect a great deal of blood magic was likely used to enter the fade, which likely caused the damage. 

 

2) Dwarves and Lyrium and the Fade.  Dwarves deserve some attention here, because they're the only race without "gods" in the sense the rest of the world considers the term god to mean.  dwarves have no connection to the fade, and no ability to use magic.  They're also, interestingly enough, immune to Lyrium.  Lyrium to other races tightens that creature's ties to the fade, which allows for strengthening of magic and other supernatural abilities to be enhanced.  It also can allow a person to enter the fade in spirit.  Lyrium it seems is almost like the crystallization of the fade in the physical realm... almost like it IS the form the fade takes in the world itself... If you think of lyrium like that, it makes the concept of "red" lyrium far more comprehensible... it is "blighted fade"... perhaps the parts of the fade that became corrupt with the violation of the golden city?

 

3) The old gods being dragons is never in doubt.  Which does raise some interesting questions about the nature of dragons themselves.  the chantry implies that it was the old gods which lead the magisters to attempt to enter the golden city.  However coriphaeus seems to doubt the existence OF the old gods in DA:I, or at least he seems to doubt they were divine.  This brings us to an interesting question, which is "where were the 7 old gods" when the magisters entered the golden city?  It almost seems like they were "sleeping" like the ancient elven immortals, when the violation of the golden city occured.  We're lead to believe that when you're sleeping you're closest to the fade... and the way Solas talks about dreams and sleep, as a portal into the fade is fascinating... It almost leads you to believe that the old gods were "sleeping"... of their own choice like the ancient elves... when the violation of the golden city occured... they're underground in the deep roads or deeper buried in veins of lyrium perhaps... 

 

4) the corruption of the golden city - we learn a lot about this from coriphaeus in both DA:2 and DA:I... according to him there truly WAS a golden city... he claims he walked in it, and that their WAS a throne for a God there, but it was empty.  We know the magisters were cast out of the golden city, returned to the world, and that the golden city became the black city, and the nature of the fade "changed" forever.  With their return we get darkspawn, and the darkspawn seem to have started out as "ghouls" through the plague the blight brings.  This all seems to be tied to the "sickness" of "spirit" that was brought out of the fade with the cast out magisters.  we get the archdemons as well, which it seems through inference appear to be the ancient Tivinter "old gods", however we do not know if the old gods were corrupted by the corruption of the golden city, or the darkspawn simply corrupted the ancient dragons with the blight when they find them like they can corrupt other living beings.  It's an interesting thought really... and one with no real answer as of yet.

 

5) Andraste and the Maker - I suspect the findings of the Tevinter magistrates by the time andraste was born had been well disseminated by this point, that the throne in the golden city was empty.  that there were no gods in it and maybe never were.  The nature of the fade makes the answer even harder to clarify.  Did they see an empty throne because they WISHED and BELIEVED there was a god but could not "conceptualize" one.  The fade does apparently take much of it's shape from the dreams of men, which means the concept of this "unreachable" golden city in the fade was born from creatures desires to envision their creator, one which had no known identity.  The reality of the empty throne, the corruption of the fade and the golden city only fed in on each other and the nature of the fade in people's dreams shifted from a welcoming coexisting reality into a nihilist nightmare populated by corruption, shattered dreams, and NO GOD.  So out of the backwoods of the tivinter empire some time after the first blight, born in a SPIRIT worshiping barbarian tribe was a woman, who would become a slave of tevinter, only to become free and marry one of those barbarian tribesmen.  I suspect she was a mage, it certainly would explain the magical power of her ashes.  If she wasn't a mage then she certainly ate lyrium much like a modern templar... as she had a tight relationship with the fade, and again, her ashes have healing powers... Andraste however created a cult based on the truths of the fade and magisters... she took the story that there was a "throne" and it was empty to mean the maker had abandoned the people of the world.  why else would there have been a throne in the golden city if there wasn't something to sit in it?  it's sound logic.  The nature of the blights could then be blamed upon the maker's judgement of the evil of Tevinter.  This said, that doesn't mean she WASN'T hearing the voice of something.  a spirit of justice inhabiting her body could have done what she did.  a spirit of faith could as well.  OR the maker might have spoken to her.  either way her divinity is certainly in doubt.  It was clear she was not divine when she was betrayed and burned at the stake a la Joan of Arc.  Interestingly some of the key people who betrayed her were also the people who created the andrastian church, in much the same way many of the people and organisations which betrayed Joan of Arc would later be the same institutions which would validate her (i love the joan of arc comparison to andraste.. it's a pretty good parallel) 

 

what came later were powerful people using the church to cement their power, spreading the little people's faith in their new and improved legends and creating a religion.  

 

~so we do have a deal of ambiguity.  there is the issue of the empty throne in the golden city.  If there was a throne must there not be something to sit in it? (of course the counter argument being that there was a throne simply because people EXPECTED the golden city to be the home of the gods) The blights could have been divine retribution as the chantry and andraste claimed, or they simply could have been the result of the corruption of the physical nature of the fade due to the method the magisters used to reach the fade physically, and then compounded by the magister's own thoughts when they were standing in the empty golden city.  The elven gods it seems were simply sleeping immortals, and the old gods sleeping dragons... likely people spoke to them or had them speak to them through the fade or in dreams, which simply expanded the "legend" of them being gods.  As to there being a maker?  It's possible... i think of anything, the more i learn about the fade in these games the more I'm convinced any true god will not be found in it (as it seems the fade is more a piece of the world then it is a world apart, which would make it a strange location for a god to make as his home) 

[Heimdall]

As i understand "The maker" (refering to a All mighty god, creator of all existence), it doesn`t matter if u are qunari, elf or human, you will be part of his creation. Nothing and nobody have an explanation for the Qunaris to exist, nor the chant of light, nor the chantry, and for what I have read (just the codex of the games, and the games itself) Qunaris and the Qun as religion, arrive to Thedas from a far away land to the north, even so, There is no "one single creator" for them, just a Unknown race, vaguely described as a barbarian and highly chaotic, predecesor to the qunaris. Wich was the reason for the Qun to be made.
 
By a hole, i meaning that, qunaris have nothing to do with the Maker.
 
 
Edit: My english is a disaster xD

...That makes zero sense. That's not a hole. Just because the Qunari don't believe the Maker created them doesn't mean he didn't

[RepHope]

...That makes zero sense. That's not a hole. Just because the Qunari don't believe the Maker created them doesn't mean he didn't

Not to mention the fact that we know there were cultures before the Qun i.e. The kossith. Perhaps some of them DID worship a Divine Creator. The elves worshiped the Creators but even they believed the Creators themselves were created. I believe there were even cults that worshipped a Maker in Ancient Humans either previous to or coexistant with Old God worship. The Dwarves venerate the Stone, but the primeval Thaig shows the Dwarven society isn't as stable and unchanging as they would like. Perhaps there was a time when they too dreamed of the Fade, and venerated gods or a creator-god.

I guess my point is that due to how the races of Thedas have changed over the years, lack of belief NOW, doesn't disprove the Makers existence anymore than belief in his existence DOES confirm it. The number of faithful in the idea of a Maker or just about anything really is constantly shifting and doesn't serve as a good argument either for or against any deities.