304 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia_Nox]

@phaonica: because religion is "fact" (it's existence is a fact) it requires its dogma to be codified.  The Chantry must state that what it embraces is fact so that it might continue in its growth and power - it is absolutely not different than a government which is stating as fact something that is absolutely make believe (there is no scientifically factual "United States"). 

 

But a religion must never be confused with any sort of force it is at its epicenter.  Even the Judeo-Christian faith comprehends this concept with YHWH (it is the name of God) - it is unspeakable and God is unknowable.  So too it is with the Maker. 

 

However - if the Chantry were to simply act as Leliana does and say that the Maker is in all things - and embraces us - and hasn't left and can be a personal, approachable God - they lose their power base and people like power.  A lot.

 

We must remember "the Chantry tells us"  - it doesn't mean they're always wrong, but it should always be understood that the Chantries entire purpose (like ALL organizations) is to control it's constituents. The "Chantry tells us" that the Magisters caused the Blight because they entered the house of the Maker and he punished them.

 

Maybe that "is" true - OR "it could be allegory" as my beloved Wynne would say.  OR - it's just control.  What it really is, is a morality tale against hubris.  However, it did occur - but did the Maker really punish them?  OR - is the Fade, being made of thought, capable of manifested on its own in the form of destruction and hubris to become "the Blight". 

 

In other words... did the very act of entering the Golden City (the untouched "perfection" of the Fade) cause the Magisters to take on the outward appearance of their inward desires and become Darkspawn?  If so - it has nothing at all to do with some petty Maker's punishments. 

 

People blame a deity when bad things happen to absolve the responsible of guilt.  Men kill men.  Unhealthy living "can" cause cancer.  Promiscuity "can" cause deadly diseases.  A drunken brawl in a tavern "can" cause death.  But the Maker didn't cause these things to happen... the poor choices of people caused them to occur. 

 

But evil - would be the Maker coming down and micromanaging each mortal so that it acted in accordance with His Will... nothing evil would ever happen and the world would be a paradise... and it would be utterly horrible because you would be nothing more than a puppet. 

[Han Shot First]

Yes.

 

The trend so far in the series is that many of the objects of worship in the series are real, just not exactly as how their cults imagine them. This is true now of both the Old Gods and the Elven Pantheon. Even the Stone was implied to be a real thing, if you explore Dagna's content.

 

Another point in the Maker's favor IMO, is that both Flemeth and Solas have dialogue about the Maker and never say he isn't real. Solas in fact, says he likes to keep an open mind if you have the Inquisitor express surprise that he believes in the Maker.

 

On that note I'd bet on the Maker being real but like the gods of the Elven pantheon or the Old Tevinter Imperium, not exactly how the Andrastian cult imagines him.

[madrar]

A lot of Andrastean faith is suspect, but even so- there are oddities need pinning down.

 

The ashes of Andraste?  A real thing, apparently real ashes, with real power.

 

Cass' seeker abilities (in her discussion with Solas) make the world this side of the Fade "more real".   To paraphase him, where could that power come from, other than the Maker?   Given that 'magic' as Thedas currently knows it is drawing directly on the Fade, there aren't many alternatives for a counter-power.

 

{batshit crazy theories ahead}

 

Then again, I rather suspect Elves created the Dwarvish race in the same way they made Varterral, and knew what they were doing in terms of making them magic-resistant, something they refined in.... Crazy Part 2 : I think the Elves had a hand in the emergence of humans, though that may have been more of a transformative thing rather than a creation thing.  And I think the one responsible got in some serious trouble for it.   Then there's Crazy 3: the larger outline of the Andrastean story is a suspiciously comfortable fit for other myths that are floating around, as well as -ugh- Flemythal's story.  And -this hurts to say because it is nuts- starting up the slave rebellion and the whole Andrastean movement might have been what Solas'harel / Flemythal were up to in the years between giving Cory his orb and the modern day.  If at first you don't succeed, little wolf, try try again.

 

{/end batshit crazy}

 

So in the strictest sense?  I doubt the Andrastean Maker exists. In a broader sense, I suspect he's an amalgamation of the actions of 1+ ancient elves.  But the elves themselves had to come from somewhere, so... 

[Zazgor]

I tried to play a character which believes in the maker, and believes he/she genuinely is the herald of Andraste.

I'm having a hard time so far even though I'm roleplaying. Because its hard to believe someone is that stupid and ignorant. It is currently very hard for me to play because I disrespect my own character too much.

well, if you do believe in the maker then theoretically he could have planed the events that were set in motion through indirect means, do I believe this? no; but it could be a way to rationalize it. 

[Heimdall]

I'd describe my feelings about the Maker's existence as... ambivalent.

[Shahadem]

If Andraste exists, why doesn't she use her amazing God powers to stop the Blight?

 

I'll just quote Hitchins as the same reason that makes it hard for him to believe that God exists is the same reason that makes it hard for me to believe that the Maker or Andraste exist as actual gods in the gameworld, especially since the Maker is the one who created the Blight in the first place, which only makes the Maker and Andraste that much more evil, if they even in fact exist. (the Maker obviously is supposed to be a version of the Judeo/Christian god and Andraste is supposed to be Christ) (also as an aside this quote is really the only two points Hitchens has to make, and he repeats it in every debate he has albeit with some variation).

 

 

 

 

We calculate that the human species ****** sapiens have been around now, Carl Sagan thought perhaps 200,000 years, I would say 100,000. In order to believe the Christian message, you have to believe this. For those 100,000 years, people were born, died – usually, many of them, in childbirth, life expectancy perhaps 20 years, 25. Earthquakes would have been terrifying. Tsunamis, volcanoes, mysterious events. War, famine, common occurences. You can fill in the picture for yourself. That was our life for tens of thousands of years. On and on it went. Now here is what you have to believe. You have to believe that heaven watched all this for 98,000 years and after 98,000 years decided it may be time to intervene. And the best way of doing that would be to have a filthy human sacrifice in a very remote part of Palestine. And the news of this has still not penetrated to the rest of the world, and I don’t think will be believed when it does.

 

[LOLandStuff]

 Because she's not one?

 

The Maker fancied her, doesn't mean he'd maker her his equal. She's just his prophet and his bride, and nothing more.

And after betraying and killing her, you really think he'd let her lift it?

[X Equestris]

If Andraste exists, why doesn't she use her amazing God powers to stop the Blight?
 
I'll just quote Hitchins as the same reason that makes it hard for him to believe that God exists is the same reason that makes it hard for me to believe that the Maker or Andraste exist as actual gods in the gameworld, especially since the Maker is the one who created the Blight in the first place, which only makes the Maker and Andraste that much more evil, if they even in fact exist. (the Maker obviously is supposed to be a version of the Judeo/Christian god and Andraste is supposed to be Christ) (also as an aside this quote is really the only two points Hitchens has to make, and he repeats it in every debate he has albeit with some variation).

Andraste was born the year Dumat died. So she couldn't stop the first Blight. And after Andraste's death, I doubt the Maker would be inclined to just lift the punishment he leveled on humanity.

And this all supposes that the Chantry's account is one hundred percent accurate. Maybe the Maker exists, but he had nothing to do with the Blight.

[Ashagar]

That's my general thought even the chantry teachings doesn't imply that the maker is omnipresent and omnipotent. If you go by what little we know of the pre-andrestian/southern chantry teachings the ancient Northern Neromenians who followed him and the later old god worshiping Tevinter belived the Maker was a simply creator deity that created the world and it was belived that the golden city held his seat. His main driving force seems to that of creation and one of his major drives seems to be to have creations capable of free will and creativity.

 

The blight and its creatures on the other hand have no will barring the archdemons and certain darkspawn, destruction and corruption which is opposite of the maker who is apparently a being of creation and creativity. Its basically the antimaker.

[zambingo]

I think the Maker can exist. However I no longer subscribe to the humorous idea that Sandal is the Maker. I think Sandal could fit as the elven god June.

[laudable11]

In my playthroughs the Warden and the Inquisitor are true believers. Hawke on the other hand...

[Medhia_Nox]

If gods stopped all evil - you would be nothing more than a  puppet on a string. Free will would be destroyed... why is this a hard concept at all to understand? 

 

NOTE:  This in no way suggests a deity.  But the "Bad things happen = no God." is such a biased, ill thought out concept that smacks of an agenda(that agenda would be "pouty baby didn't get their way and now wants to hurt the universe for it".  If there's no god, then there is no god - the end.  Pitiful exercises in bad logic won't change whether such a "thing" as God(s) exist.    

 

As for the Maker - I believe it exists in, or is composed of, whatever is beyond the Fade.  Whatever Cole is referencing when he talked about Seekers or the Inquisitor.  

 

[The Oracle]

Eh...I built the black city.

 

I was going through a bit of a Gothic phase at the time and I was dreaming about the new mansion I was going to build for my Mortimer sims and then, when I woke up, everyone was all like "Ooooo in my dreams I saw this big black city. Bet that use to be the seat of some omnipotent being with a real hard-on for singing. Then I bet some damn mages decided to squat there and it all went to hell."

 

I tried to tell them otherwise and explain that I had built it and they called me crazy! Said it had to be some god who instead, feeling insulted at all the left over pizza boxes and beer cans, decided that the most sensible retaliation was to plague all of Thedas with horrifying pestilence that indiscriminately kills or mutates all living creatures, therefore slaughtering millions of people who were entirely innocent and unrelated to the original incident. They told me it just made more logical sense.

 

Not much more I could do to convince them otherwise. Ah well...

[Medhia_Nox]

@The Oracle:  So what you're saying is that the Blight is the fungal growth from the left over pizza turned sentient?  

 

DAMN YOU MAGE SLOBS!

[The Baconer]

Does "The Maker" exist, as Andrastian faith envisions it? No, I think we've reached a 0% chance of that panning out. But that, of course, doesn't rule out the existence of a Maker.

[lordsaren101]

The maker is a lie...there is only Dumat!

[TK514]

Yes.

 

The trend so far in the series is that many of the objects of worship in the series are real, just not exactly as how their cults imagine them. This is true now of both the Old Gods and the Elven Pantheon. Even the Stone was implied to be a real thing, if you explore Dagna's content.

 

Another point in the Maker's favor IMO, is that both Flemeth and Solas have dialogue about the Maker and never say he isn't real. Solas in fact, says he likes to keep an open mind if you have the Inquisitor express surprise that he believes in the Maker.

 

On that note I'd bet on the Maker being real but like the gods of the Elven pantheon or the Old Tevinter Imperium, not exactly how the Andrastian cult imagines him.

 

Han said it first.

[Legion of 1337]

I do not consider atheism in the world of Dragon Age to be rational, unlike in real life. We are shown again and again that worshipped deities, while not what we expect, do in fact exist. The idea that there is one supreme entity who created everything is not far fetched. Honestly I'm sad Bioware refuses to explore the Maker for the sake of generating forum posts. It would be so cool to find out the Maker is an Azathoth-like entity that created the universe out of boredom and now sits around and watches it for entertainment with no intention of interfering with it and not giving any kind of a **** about the legions of Chantry worshipers it has, thus shattering their faith and comfort with him and leaving them with the option of ignoring it, living with the knowledge they will die and the Maker won't give them a heaven, or continue to worship it in the hopes that he will change his mind and bless them.

[zambingo]

Eh...I built the black city.

With ROCK & ROLL?!

[Call Me Jord]

Well I believe there's something there. I mean The Black City was there when we went holiday to the Fade during Here Lies The Abyss.

 

And as Sera puts it, if The Black City is real, then the Seat of the Maker? Real thing. Seat needs a butt, so Maker? Real thing.

 

But I would love to be able to go to The Black City. However I believe Bioware have said they won't do anything that directly involves the Maker, so The Black City mentions, and its appearance during Here Lies The Abyss could possibly be the closest we get to the Maker.

 

Back on track, I do believe there's something there. I have to laugh as well, I'm more inclined to believe in the Maker, then I am of a God in our world.

[New Kid]

I do not.

[Uccio]

And as Sera puts it, if The Black City is real, then the Seat of the Maker? Real thing. Seat needs a butt, so Maker? Real thing.

 

Sera is just a ignorant elf. It is Dumat´s seat.

[lordsaren101]

Everything you see In Thedas exists because Dumat wills it. The old gods are the only gods I take vigil with. Hopefully at some point bioware will allow our character to choose a faith besides Chantry or Atheist. Enough with this Andraste and false maker. Everytime some butthead said to me Herald or Andraste or by the maker....there should have been an option to say ya know what Dumat! Boom suck it you ignorant peasants. It gets boring with the usual I dont believe in the maker retort. How about the option to declare I believe in Dumat, or Mythal or Hakkon, or anything. I will give so e credit to Bioware, during Jaws of Hakkon, up and away is the quest, you have the option to participate in Runa's ritual to Avvar gods Which was nice, a plus 1 to magic too.

Now give us more. Enough with the Chantry and Maker nonsense. Ive spent 3 games having it shoved in my face. Enough. If you are going to slam it in our face, give us options. Atheist or chantry is lazy. Bring in Dumat and thd old gods. True gods.

Interesting side convo between two npcs in Val Royeaux, a female noble comments to another about Corypheus' s power and he served thd old gods, does this make them real and perhaps Thedas should turn to them. A wise woman. Her companion replies that they andtheir power is indeed real, but we must continue to look to the maker. Forget the Maker already.

Praise Dumat!

[Dieb]

After the incidents & revelations in the Temple of Mythal, I believe the Fade & the Golden City was essentially "Proto Eluvian Travelspace Otherworld 1.0".

 

I believe the Chantry and the Elves are polishing two sides of the same medal. I believe the Maker is neither an individual, nor did he/they exist in this capacity, and I in turn believe the Elven gods weren't devine.

 

Given it's not only unknown but also fictional, nothing of that is more than assumptions, but my gut tells me the Fade looks like it was abandoned rather than just strange by design. I think it may be interchangeable with whichever realm the Elven "gods" resided in, whom I believe after Morrigan, to have been simply immensely powerful mages.

 

They started building their own little play fort, and got interrupted or made a fatal mistake mid-construction. We don't know why exactly Arlathan fell apart, we don't know why the Elves fought amongst themselves, or "abandonned" the faith in the Maker (who supposedly would have had to reside in this realm), but given they say "any sophisticated enough technology is virtually indistiguinshable from magic" -and they have magic- it seems as sound as any theory.

 

If anything, the ancient Elves reciprocatively excelled at deconstructing mysteries rather well.

[Han Shot First]

If Andraste exists, why doesn't she use her amazing God powers to stop the Blight?

 

 

Andraste isn't the Chantry's god, she's more like their god's prophet. The Maker is their god.

 

In either case the lack of direct intervention from a deity does not necessarily prove that deity doesn't exist. There are a whole host of reasons why it may not have intervened in the Blights.

 

Maybe it is malevolent. Maybe it is indifferent. Maybe it believes the Blights are a just punishment upon the world. Maybe it doesn't view death in the same way mortals do. If mortals possess immortal souls that continue to exist after death, maybe it views death as just part of a metamorphosis, and not something to be feared. Maybe it got locked away from the world and is unable to intervene, thanks to whatever it was that severed the Elven pantheon from the world. 

 

Or maybe it has intervened and there was a divine hand at work in every Blight being stopped.

 

Or, maybe there is no Maker.

 

There are many possibilities and each is as valid a theory as the next.