51 réponses à ce sujet

[mission555]

The Katari is my favorite Warrior class, yet as most of us would agree pretty weak at the moment. In this thread I'm going go over the Katari class, its role on the battlefield, strengths and weaknesses and bring some suggestions on balancing this beast of a warrior. I'd like to invite you all to participate, bring suggestions of your own or give feedback on my analysis/balance ideas. 

 

The Katari, is a Warrior that like the Reaver has his place in the middle of the battlefield. These classes fill a role that could best be described as Vanguard, they fight ahead of or next to the tank in the fray. Unlike the Reaver the Katari is less focused on damage and more on mobility, as an offtank/damage dealer one would expect the Katari to gain in durability what he doesn't have in damage. Sadly this is not the case. The Katari lacks the means of sustaining damage or avoiding damage while he is expected to be a frontline fighter, his maximum Guard is laughably small and he can't reduce his threat.

 

Let's take a look at the Katari's abilities. The staple ability for Katari is Charging Bull, which deals damage, knocks enemies down and builds guard. Let's add in some synergy. needs no improvement. 

 

This skill synergises well with Mighty Blow which deals bonus damage on enemies that are already downed. These skills offter a nice mix between CC and damage and are fine. Suggestion: bonus damage +150%

 

Pommel strike, a quick single target jab that stuns, I'm not a big fan of single target CC in this game but considering the Katari's affinity as a duelist I can see its place in the Katari skillset. However it's not enough for that purpose, Suggestion: Rework the upgrade. "Pommel Strike ends in a defensive pose which slows movement speed but reduces incoming damage". movement is slowed by 20% and incoming physical damage reduced by 15%, rolling ends defensive pose, duration 5 seconds. 

 

Whirlwind. AoE damage spin to win. This skill serves its purpose but is very situational and has a long cooldown. Suggestion: reduce the cooldown to 10 seconds, reduce the windup time for the initial spin by 30%, If you spin you lose your guard. +30% chance to crit. Damage reduced to 60% weapon damage. The idea behind these changes is to make Whirlwind more flexible (it becomes feasable to spin after landing two normal blows for extra damage) and make it a clear offensive choice with drawbacks.

 

Earthshaking Strike: Mighty Blow's big brother. Not really. While it looks flashy its animation takes a while and the damage is not impressive, as it is it's just a worse version of Mighty Blow. Suggestion: burning damage to 100% weapon damage per second, reduce the duration to two seconds. Enemies that stand on the Fissure are weakened. The idea here is to give Earthshaking Strike its own niche, we get more damage mitigation and a bit more competitive damage. 

 

Block and Slash: Block and counterstrike.This skill is alright, but could definitely be improved upon. Suggestion: Make the AI more inclined to attack when you're blocking "mini taunt", guard amount increased to 20%, damage reduced to 100%->150%, critically strikes if your target is taunted. 

 

Grappling Chain: GET OVER HEEERE. Major fun factor. Let's give it a bit more. Suggestion: Fix the kick to be more responsive, skill duration +0.2s, cooldown is refreshed if you critically strike, make gold piles targetable. Damage reduced by 50%. Stamina cost ->30. damage -50%

 

Combat Roll: Roll away from danger! Does make you harder to hit but doesn't drop your aggro, we'll fix that. Suggestion: Upgrade: After rolling you have 10% chance to dodge projectiles.

 

To The Death: This skill is fine, but I'll do suggestion anyway. Suggestion: Guard improves on main skill. Upgrade: "While To The Death is active incoming damage is dealt over three seconds. 

 

Challenge: Does too little for an entire skill slot. Solution new skill. Suggestion: Bonus stamina regeneration ->20

 

Empower: toggle: "You empower your normal attacks while rapidly draining stamina". +50% weapon damage on normal hits and double stagger, cost 15 stamina per second +15 per hit. Upgrade: While empowered you gain 15% chance to dodge projectiles."

 

Cutting words: Your party does 20% more damage but you don't.

 

There's still some basics I wanted to buff but that's best done in the form of passives.

 

New passives:

 

Tough: Maximum Guard is increased by 50% (instead of Resillience)

 

Tough Skin: When you have no guard ranged damage reduced by 20% (new passive) 

 

So to sum up, We have three new passives that gives Katari +50% guard and reduces ranged damage by 20% At this point an archer on Threathening does 33% of full guard per hit. When our guard is down we are 1.2 times more durable when faced with archer fire. If we take the most defensive skills possible we have another 10-25%(averaging 15) chance to dodge projectiles and 27% weaken. Durability against archer fire has been increased by 32% grand total and durability against melee by 27%. The buffs seem bigger than they are. 

Damage gain is maximally between 200 and 300% extraweapon damage over 4 skills, average rotation time 10 seconds. Again not so big. If we look at the damage rogues can just **** out this seems more than fair. 

 

That's that for my great overhaul of the Katari class, synergy EVERYWHERE, hah ofcourse I realise they'll never overhaul the class as in depth as this or as convoluted as this but 't was fun to do. Looking forward to your responses and balance ideas.

[HappySchwagg]

I have a lvl 21 blue maul and I've had Pommel Strike crit for over 3k, its a hugely underrated ability and is the best way to deal with enemy rogue types as the katari.

 

I don't use earth shaking strike but I know you can self res with the burn proc if you have a heal on kill ring (like you can with Death Syphon).

 

I don't think many of his passives in the defensive tree are worthwhile but the offensive tree has some of the best passives of any class.

 

I would like to see some damage reduction to projectiles while in charging bull so you can close on ranged mobs in Perilous. The Grisly Mutilation passive fixed so it doesn't proc on teammates (doesn't happen very often, but an aoe panic on you and your team isn't fun) And maybe make it so regular mooks can't block your basic attack without a shield since it takes so long between/for each strike.

 

Katari is actually really strong threatening right now but ranged mobs on Perilous is where he needs some help I think.

[mission555]

I have a lvl 21 blue maul and I've had Pommel Strike crit for over 3k, its a hugely underrated ability and is the best way to deal with enemy rogue types as the katari.

 

I don't use earth shaking strike but I know you can self res with the burn proc if you have a heal on kill ring (like you can with Death Syphon).

 

I don't think many of his passives in the defensive tree are worthwhile but the offensive tree has some of the best passives of any class.

 

I would like to see some damage reduction to projectiles while in charging bull so you can close on ranged mobs in Perilous. The Grisly Mutilation passive fixed so it doesn't proc on teammates (doesn't happen very often, but an aoe panic on you and your team isn't fun) And maybe make it so regular mooks can't block your basic attack without a shield since it takes so long between/for each strike.

 

Katari is actually really strong threatening right now but ranged mobs on Perilous is where he needs some help I think.

 

Katari strong on Threathening? Sorry but I don't see it. Damage is pitiful compared to say Assassin and he has worse means to stay alive to boot. 

 

Actually he does quite possibly the least damage out of all classes and has the worst survivability as well. 

[HappySchwagg]

Assassin is single target. Stealth/Twin Fang insta-kills one target. Charging Bull/Mighty Blow insta-kills everything it hits (average of 3-4 targets on initial pull.)

 

Assassin has no utility, I run 4 cc's on my skill bar, 2 stuns and two aoe knockdowns. And the panic passive procs once per fight, sometimes more than once.

[mission555]

Assassin is single target. Stealth/Twin Fang insta-kills one target. Charging Bull/Mighty Blow insta-kills everything it hits (average of 3-4 targets on initial pull.)

 

Assassin has no utility, I run 4 cc's on my skill bar, 2 stuns and two aoe knockdowns. And the panic passive procs once per fight, sometimes more than once.

Okay.. Name me a class that's worse than Katari at Threathening. All considered with level21+ gear. 

[Kanova]

I don't think they should bugger around with his skills or anything, just his health. His stats almost seem bugged. He has the most armor rating, his health stat is par with the Reaver and yet he can only take 2 sword swings on Threatening. I don't think a single class in the game is more squishy than he is. Something is off about it, they should just make him a bit beefier so he can actually do his job.

But yeah, I like his damage and he is fun to play. The charge into a group and mighty blow to insta kill them all is pretty nice. I mean the crits on a knocked down mighty blow are giant and his combo is on a pretty low cooldown. Its just he can't even take a stark stare from an enemy without dying.

[mission555]

I don't think they should bugger around with his skills or anything, just his health. His stats almost seem bugged. He has the most armor rating, his health stat is par with the Reaver and yet he can only take 2 sword swings on Threatening. I don't think a single class in the game is more squishy than he is. Something is off about it, they should just make him a bit beefier so he can actually do his job.

But yeah, I like his damage and he is fun to play. The charge into a group and mighty blow to insta kill them all is pretty nice. I mean the crits on a knocked down mighty blow are giant and his combo is on a pretty low cooldown. Its just he can't even take a stark stare from an enemy without dying.

 

I agree the damage you take as Katari does seem off. I'd still like Katari to get a little bit more synergy in his skill tree. 

[HappySchwagg]

Unpopular opinion inc., but I would rather have a Katari specced like mine than either of the melee rogue classes. The rogue classes outdamage the katari in single target damage but if you wanted to measure the overall impact or contribution to a team I think a well specced katari brings more.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the Katari needs help. I think his whole defensive tree is basically useless, especially compared to the offensive passives. His "worst" passive in the offensive tree is Scenting Blood, which is free crit chance and movespeed, his passives are that good. I also think both earthshaking strike and whirlwind are pretty bad as they take far too long to use for their damage and leave you very exposed while you try to use them.

 

Put that together and ppl who try to use the defensive tree end up losing out on all those good damage passives in the offense tree but still can't really tank very well either. And then the ones that go into offense tree try to use Whirlwind and Earthshaking Strike and get wrecked with high risk/low reward of those skills.

 

However, if you build for the maximum offensive output, while using multiple cc's for damage mitigation you get a high impact character that does very decent damage output, a generous amount of damage mitigation (not just for you, but your whole team) through your 4 cc abilities (5 counting panic passive) that are all moderate to low cool down, and is pretty self sufficient much like the rogue when played well.

 

If you really like the Katari, please try this set-up and playstyle. Maybe this setup is just a workaround for his lackluster defensive passives and underperforming "flashier" moves, but it really, really works. And its extremely fun.

 

For the record, Assassin, Katari, and Templar are my 3 most played classes and I thoroughly enjoy playing my assassin, but I genuinely feel that a well specced/well played Katari brings more to the team.

[mission555]

Unpopular opinion inc., but I would rather have a Katari specced like mine than either of the melee rogue classes. The rogue classes outdamage the katari in single target damage but if you wanted to measure the overall impact or contribution to a team I think a well specced katari brings more.

 

Don't get me wrong, I think the Katari needs help. I think his whole defensive tree is basically useless, especially compared to the offensive passives. His "worst" passive in the offensive tree is Scenting Blood, which is free crit chance and movespeed, his passives are that good. I also think both earthshaking strike and whirlwind are pretty bad as they take far too long to use for their damage and leave you very exposed while you try to use them.

 

Put that together and ppl who try to use the defensive tree end up losing out on all those good damage passives in the offense tree but still can't really tank very well either. And then the ones that go into offense tree try to use Whirlwind and Earthshaking Strike and get wrecked with high risk/low reward of those skills.

 

However, if you build for the maximum offensive output, while using multiple cc's for damage mitigation you get a high impact character that does very decent damage output, a generous amount of damage mitigation (not just for you, but your whole team) through your 4 cc abilities (5 counting panic passive) that are all moderate to low cool down, and is pretty self sufficient much like the rogue when played well.

 

If you really like the Katari, please try this set-up and playstyle. Maybe this setup is just a workaround for his lackluster defensive passives and underperforming "flashier" moves, but it really, really works. And its extremely fun.

 

For the record, Assassin, Katari, and Templar are my 3 most played classes and I thoroughly enjoy playing my assassin, but I genuinely feel that a well specced/well played Katari brings more to the team.

You haven't been too clear on which skills you run. Charging Bull and Mighty Blow, yeah, then what? Pommel Strike and Warhorn? I've tried that. I'm not a big fan of mighty blow, it's good damage but the aiming is a bit awkward, I usually find myself Charging into a group of three then hitting only one with Mighty Blow. Mighty blow ends up doing 500% weapon damage on downed targets, the skill takes about two seconds, in that time I can get four hits off. I'm not so impressed with the damage on it to validate getting it. Pommel Strike I haven't played around with too much, I use Charging Bull, To The Death, Warhorn and Combat Roll. I definitely can't switch out Charging Bull or To The Death, Combat Roll is really usefull for avoiding damage and Warhorn is big CC. I will try and replace Warhorn, which is a great skill but slow. Ofcourse if I want to try and solo threathening I'll need Warhorn back. EDIT: I dropped Combat Roll, works great on Threathening wonder if the archer fire is not too much on Perilous.

 

I have a nice tip for you, normal attack then press shift or left thumbstick (after every normal attack). this resets your auto attack timer and lets you attack I estimate at least 50% faster. 

 

Have you played a rogue with top gear? It's crazy how strong they are. You don't need team utility when you have one guy basically soloing Threathening/Perilous, All the Assassin needs is someone to distract the pack.

[N7 Tigger]

I think the Katari is fine but the enemies need some tweaking. Which I'm sure they'll get.

 

Archers are ridiculous. I set one on fire with Earthshaking Strike, then started smashing him in the face with a 200 lb sledgehammer and he just casually fired away. No panic from the fire. No flinch from the maul. Three arrows and I was dead. If you're engaging an archer at melee range they should be literally unable to fire. And any attack that hits needs to interrupt their shot. What was funny, though, is that after this archer killed me he was preening and boasting like a WWE wrestler... while his entire body, head to toe, was still on fire.

[Primeyuri]

The armor just needs to be more. at least in the 200+ not below 100. Just like the single player.

[mission555]

The armor just needs to be more. at least in the 200+ not below 100. Just like the single player.

Armor is flat damage reduction right? 200 would be overkill.

[Drogonion]

Katari is a fun class, but it is weak - probably the weakest class of them all.  This includes Threatening.  

 

I like the OP's ideas to bring the class up to par.  Bottom line is survivability - this melee class takes way too much damage to compete with the other classes at higher difficulty.

[mission555]

I really don't get how Katari is so squishy. 

 

I just got oneshot with full guard by a demon, sure it was on Perilous but still.. I never see a Legionaire get rekt so quickly. 

 

Maybe there's a bug in the armor?

 

Is there anyone who can explain to me how Legionaire's become so tanky?

[Rhaine]

You haven't been too clear on which skills you run. Charging Bull and Mighty Blow, yeah, then what? Pommel Strike and Warhorn? I've tried that. I'm not a big fan of mighty blow, it's good damage but the aiming is a bit awkward, I usually find myself Charging into a group of three then hitting only one with Mighty Blow. Mighty blow ends up doing 500% weapon damage on downed targets, the skill takes about two seconds, in that time I can get four hits off. I'm not so impressed with the damage on it to validate getting it. Pommel Strike I haven't played around with too much, I use Charging Bull, To The Death, Warhorn and Combat Roll. I definitely can't switch out Charging Bull or To The Death, Combat Roll is really usefull for avoiding damage and Warhorn is big CC. I will try and replace Warhorn, which is a great skill but slow. Ofcourse if I want to try and solo threathening I'll need Warhorn back. EDIT: I dropped Combat Roll, works great on Threathening wonder if the archer fire is not too much on Perilous.

 

I have a nice tip for you, normal attack then press shift or left thumbstick (after every normal attack). this resets your auto attack timer and lets you attack I estimate at least 50% faster. 

 

Have you played a rogue with top gear? It's crazy how strong they are. You don't need team utility when you have one guy basically soloing Threathening/Perilous, All the Assassin needs is someone to distract the pack.

 

Damn u exploiting cheater! ban!;p

[veramis]

Damn u exploiting cheater! ban!;p

 

Just in case anyone is worried about ban, animation canceling is pretty common in games and never results in bans. And they wouldn't be able to figure out if you are doing it anyway because you use it for sprint too lol. What are the odds that the most spammed key is also what you need for animation canceling.

[HappySchwagg]

I don't have much trouble landing Mighty Blow now that I've had some practice. Even without the combo, I would still take MB for the aoe knockdown.

 

Pommel Strike to me is a must. The animation is very fast and it does really solid damage. I hit the Venatori Commander for 3600 dmg with PS last night and that isn't the upper limit, since my Maul isn't unique and she wasn't (can't be?) stunned or panicked so I didn't get to use one of the higher damage bonus passives either.

 

You could use whatever for the fourth skill, but I'm using grappling chain. It is niche but has its uses. It is another quick stun for rogues and can be used to pull the demon commander when he tries to go underground, resetting him back to melee mode. With a 15% cdr amulet, you can keep him above ground and using melee til he dies.

 

My daggers are decent and the assassin's ttk is faster, but not by that much and the Katari is distracting and cc'ing several enemies almost as by-product of dealing damage.

 

I'm not gonna tell you to promote and try a full offensive spec, since that could be alot of wasted effort if you decide you didn't like it. But, if you're on PC, we should play together some time, so you can see what I'm talking about.

 

 

P.S. I would use War Horn instead of grappling chain but it would cost too many of those solid damage passives.

[-PenguinFetish-]

Im writing up a build which has Charging Bull, Mighty Blow, To the Death and War Horn. 

Its pretty good as it is imo, but you just need to have a team babysitting you. The only thing I would improve is the flat damage reduction he gets. I feel like he should be a tanky 2 handed wielder, but he is just as glassy as the reaver, if not more considering he doesn't have rampage (which i think he totally should have by the way)

[Mindtraveller]

The lack of combat roll in here saddens me.

 

Oh, wasn't it confirmed that armor is indeed bugged? Something to do with front armor not getting the bonuses it should. I can't remember exactly.

[HappySchwagg]

Why roll past enemies when you can run them over? The only use I've gotten out of combat roll is breaking the DC's panic, which makes it feel like a wasted space to me against 2/3 of the enemies and 80% of the demon rooms.

[Mindtraveller]

It allows you to "tank" chest guardians and the DC or any dangerous enemy. I constantly get aggro from everything when there's no legionnaire. Considering how squishy the katari is I find combat roll extremely useful. Especially on perilous. Charge has a short cooldown and it can be used defensively, but I use it for damage against big enemies(30% dmg ring), so having an extra mobility tool is very useful.

[mission555]

Combat Roll

Swapping it for Pummel Strike though, will see how it goes. On Threathening so far I find myself not needing Roll at all, it did take a little getting used to.

[mission555]

Why roll past enemies when you can run them over? The only use I've gotten out of combat roll is breaking the DC's panic, which makes it feel like a wasted space to me against 2/3 of the enemies and 80% of the demon rooms.

 

I have a feeling it helps you dodge aggro, while you're dodging I don't think they can target you. So you roll from one enemy to the next bashing skulls.

[mission555]

Im writing up a build which has Charging Bull, Mighty Blow, To the Death and War Horn. 

Its pretty good as it is imo, but you just need to have a team babysitting you. The only thing I would improve is the flat damage reduction he gets. I feel like he should be a tanky 2 handed wielder, but he is just as glassy as the reaver, if not more considering he doesn't have rampage (which i think he totally should have by the way)

 

I've been there, eventually moved over to a different playstyle. Charging Bull, To The Death, Grappling Hook/Pommel Strike, final slot is open. You could do a Mighty Blow there but I suspect you need to put Combat Roll there if you want to run Perilous. So far I've been doing Grappling Hook and Pommel Strike.

 

The thing about Mighty Blow is that you're not really doing much added deeps. How long does the animation take? One and a half - two seconds?  That's time you're locked up which isn't too good but during that time you can fit in three normal hits, so if your enemy is downed you got 300% weapon damage more (three hits atb  130% due to passive), that's negligable. The CC isn't negligable but in my experience the longer duration single target CC from either Pommel Strike or Grappling Hook is preferred. Pommel Strike is great because it's so quick, allows you to use it as an interrupt. With Grappling Hook you can pick out one from the crowd before every engage, it's nice utility (ice ****** cries when you get all scorpion on her). Warhorn is still good ofcourse but it's short duration has significant cast time and requires you to be neck deep in enemies to be really good (with Grappling Hook you'll find yourself positioned slightly more conservatively), lastly they run away from you. After using Warhorn a lot I find that the utility of either Grappling Hook or Pommel Strike is > than the damage/cc of Mighty Blow and > the utility of Warhorn.

 

Just my two cents, I hope you try it out.  

 

Suzuki Method, on 07 Dec 2014 - 6:49 PM, said:

 

 

Pommel Strike to me is a must. The animation is very fast and it does really solid damage. 

 

 

 

I've fallen in love with Grappling Hook, the utility is really good and it's so fun to use. Same damage as Pommel Strike, lower cooldown, downside ofcourse is the duration of the skill but I think the utility is worth it. It's basically Pommel Strike 2.0.

[Shinnyshin]

Is there anyone who can explain to me how Legionaire's become so tanky?

Turn the bolt, true invulnerability that can have literally 100% uptime if you're lucky, additional invulnerability vs melee that knocks down archers, 3 really good guard generation abilities that will usually take you to full, doubled armor values, and a shield.

 

I've played Katari and he feels like he's just...not designed for a format where there're archers/horrors/knights.  I wonder if he was the first class made or something, before the gameplay was solidified.  Every other class has a way to mitigate the pain, be it through aggro dropping/untargetability, massive resists/invulnerability, or a way to increase your effective health pool.  He doesn't have any of those tools and is working entirely off base values.  Think about that for a second.  Think about how worthless base values are compared to sustain/invulnerability + base values.  Dear lord, it hadn't struck me until writing this just how powerless against damage the Katari is.