Aller au contenu

Photo

The importance of choice in roleplaying games


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
16 réponses à ce sujet

#1
torq_za

torq_za
  • Members
  • 45 messages

Roleplaying games, more than other genres, offer choice. That's their schtick. Make your own character, choose your own path, tell your own story. Broadly speaking there are three kinds of choice: 1) Set-up 2) Action and 3) Narrative. Gamers who love their roleplaying games want it more than anything. Choice is King. 

 

Despite the bugs, and poor UI, I think the biggest problem for DA:I is the lack of meaningful choice. In my opinion, Bioware ran into this with ME3 too - made all the more meaningless as it served as the capstone for the entire trilogy. Choice is incredibly important in this genre. One either needs to label Bioware's games as action adventures with very light roleplaying... or they need to understand how to better deliver meaningful choice to it's players. 

 

1. Set-up or character creation

Set-up choices cover things like your character's sex, species, hairstyle, eye colour, class, etc. These things don't usually change through a play through, and if done well, your choices here should garner you specific content to reflect the choices you've made. If you choose an elf in Thedas, that decision comes with a bunch of consequences, which if done well, are delivered through the game. 

 

The reason why the character creator is so important in a roleplaying game, is that it's a relatively "cheap" way to give players a huge amount of choice. My female elven character most likely won't look anything like your female elven character, for example - and we as players put great value in this. Which is why, when something doesn't all look all that great (hairstyles), people complain a lot. 

 

I think DAI has good set-up choices. Other than unattractive hair, the character creator is a wonderfully deep tool to making a character uniquely your own. And for the most part (although this could be a lot more - an Elf Mage running the Inquisition and every human is fine with that?), your choices in race and sex, are reflected back at you through the game. I'm not sure that there are bespoke missions (well not that I noticed with my elf) for each race (other than that Dalish Camp war table thing... which isn't what I'd consider deep and meaningful), but enough in general that it's not as if your choices here during the set-up just don't matter at all. One of the consequences on your sex, is whom is available to be romanced. This is cool. 

 

2. Action or Verbs

Action choices are things like skills, ability points, equipment, attacks, ... choices that are how you directly interact with the world. Pickpocketing, sneaking, teleporting, back stabbing, striking with your sword, casting a fireball, deceiving, flirting, bartering... are all ways roleplaying games allow you to interact with the world in an active manner. It's also a little in how you look, your choice in armour or whether to wear a helmet or not. 

 

Key here is progression, which is usually represented with ability or skill points, or a skill tree. You usually start out quite poor at a particular task, but by the end of the game, if you've trained it, poured points in it, or just learned how to use it better... you're now awesome in that "verb". Allowing the gamer multiple ways to interact with challenges in the world really helps to provide them with even greater choice, and defines their character that they are creating by their actions. Initially my elf mage eschewed the inferno tree, only for roleplaying reasons. It was a choice that helped my define the character I was busy defining as I was playing.

Another aspect of progression is how you look; you want to look more and more the part as you play through the game. By the end of it, you want your wish fulfilment - fulfilled. If you've been wading into the battle with bastard sword, no care in the world... you kinda want huge metal armour, horned helmets, spiky kneepads. If you've been sneaking and lurking and being shadowy... then cloth wrapped boots, fingerless gloves, dark hoods, black leather, small blackened blades - all this helps to visually define your character. The more choice here, the more the character can be owned by the player.

 

First, you make your own character, then you are choosing how to solve the challenges in the game with the tools the game has provided; and then you're choosing what to look like while doing it.

 

Unfortunately, the tool set (the verbs) in DAI are about doing damage or controlling an enemy in combat. There are no abilities or skills that can be chosen that aren't about being used in combat. Notable exception is the lock pick skill, which is either free from the start if you pick rogue, or a perk you purchase for your group's rogues. But there isn't anything else that is activated out in the field. The choices you have for combat are many; multiple trees in each of the three classes, but many of these choices are essentially the same choice, just with a different name or flourish. And nearly all of them result in some splashy firework in combat. This is not so much of a problem when the game is an action game like Darksiders, but it is a problem when the game says it's a roleplaying game. 

 

Having three classes, and their specialisations, it is clear the developers want us to care about our choices in combat. That for them the enjoyment of the game, the very essence of the game, is what occurs in a combat. As long as combats can be different and remain interesting due to their enemy composition, or the environment or the consequences - this isn't a bad approach. It's when those battles become repetitive, or one's strategy to solve them is the same, or the terrain doesn't feature, that the fun of combat (and by extension the fun of one's action choices) begins to pale. The problem here is that DA:I isn't the best combat game; it doesn't have counters (batman/ass-creed), it doesn't mêlée lock on (dark souls), you cannot dodge (guild wars), you cannot move and cast if you're a mage, it's very hard to flank enemies as they're very mobile, enemies don't seem to have much difference in the behaviours. They swarm. In tactics mode, you cannot queue actions, actions can be interrupted and forgotten by your group, ranged attackers don't take higher ground, you cannot tell any individual to hold, holding is rubber banded to your position, camera doesn't allow you to see the field of battle, enemies are just jugs of hit points. So, if combat was supposed to be the be all and end all of the experience, why is there such a litany of poor design choices here. 

That said... if you ignore tactics, the battles with the dragons are the best content in the game. The environment you find the dragon in, the dragon itself, the phased nature of the combat, all is tremendously rewarding. You can and have to use the environment to not be burned alive. You have to pause to tell an NPC "drink this!", "Go there!". It's good visceral fun action. The skeletons rising out of the water in the swamps is also another great use of the environment to change up how we approach our choices in combat. In fact, when I got there and read that the undead were vulnerable to fire, I respec'd my mage to be more effective. That's great. 

 

In comparison, the battles with respawning bears and wolves are not great. In fact any random respawn enemy - yawn. They are not meaningful in the same ways as the above combats. I'd even say that the final battle against Corypheus is very uninspired, and offers nothing new which is a shame as he's supposed to be the Big Bad Evil Dude of The Forever. 

 

Another lack of choice here, is how you look. Crafting is usually a tedious chore requiring components to be collected, and schematics to be found; that if the player perseveres is rewarded with a choice of something cool to wear (that also does more of X). Being in Skyhold robs you of your hard work here, as you're forced to wear something that doesn't change throughout the game, that looks the same for every race and sex, and was never your choice. One can nitpick about the number of different looking armours in the game, that the progression here isn't gradual but occurs in 3-4 distinct steps, but that's neither here nor there. The point is there is progression in how you look, while you're out in the world. 

 

3. Narrative or go to page 67.

The last type of choice is that of narrative. It can occur as a consequence of a dialogue option, or by deciding to go left instead of going right (when you cannot take ever take the other choice again). This kind of choice is perhaps the hardest to pull off, because it's either illusion (there is no choice, but the player doesn't know), or results in the player not getting to see content (content which cost money to make). That said, I think this kind of choice is the most important in a roleplaying game. Many love these hard irrevocable choices, which is exactly why Telltale games do so well. It's Choose Your Own Adventure playing out large and in colour on your TV or monitor.

 

These choices are what save files are for. It's why DAI has a dedicated site to create the prior two games choices so that your world state at the start of DAI is your own. Most of these choices are delivered in just a bit of dialogue, but regardless they still matter. 

 

This is where, I think, DAI has really lost its rpg credentials, as I'm not convinced in my 90 hour playthrough, that the vast majority of my choices actually mattered to the story. 

 

There is so much dialogue in Bioware's games that it's understandable that not every single line your character chooses can irrevocably branch off an entirely new storyline, but at the same time, when you can see that any of the three available choices in a dialogue option all lead to the same place, or that the response from the speaker answers all three of those choices, that's when you know that this tiny little choice doesn't matter. And when a whole bunch of tiny little choices don't matter, one questions if the big ones matter.

 

Mages vs templars? Does it matter? If so, how? Doing all the inner circle quests. Does it matter? if so, how? Maybe they do, and maybe I'd have to play through multiple times to appreciate the subtle differences, because I certainly didn't feel like they mattered in my story. And when you are in that space as a gamer... that, it doesn't matter space.... all the codexes, and long dialogue chains, cannot make it whole again. Did I maybe "choose" all the boring bits? 

 

Having a huge open world to go adventure in is another problem that doesn't contribute directly to making a choice in the story. It does add power, and it may give you levels, but narratively... having secured this area over that area. Having solved this skull-light puzzle or closed that breach, it ultimately doesn't serve the greater story and even worse on occasion doesn't really serve the area locally either. Exploring is fun just on its own, but it should always somehow matter. 

 

When the watch towers went up in the Hinterlands, I was happy... as my hard work meant the villagers and farmers came back to their farms, and my choice to intervene had left a mark on the land. This happens too rarely. 

 

The approves and disapproves mechanic is supposedly a metric of consequence. The funny thing about it though, is that it can fire multiple times on either side through a single dialogue. It also invariably doesn't align with the disapproving/approving dialogue of the NPC. Solas went from greatly disapproves, to verbally supporting my argument, to slightly approving after he spoke - all through one dialogue chain. And then when I spoke to him next afterwards back at skyhold, he was very happy with my decision. Why was he so disapproving at the start then? Is he a big flake? No, everyone does it too. When no NPCs leave, or have stern words with you (which admittedly may be due to me not giving them enough reason to), it begins to feel like choice, as far as dialogue goes, doesn't change anything. 

 

Why isn't there consequence for example in your choice of team. When Cole arrives, Cassandra disapproves, but never leaves. One never has to make a choice of Cole or Cassandra. That's a great choice to have to make. 

 

Witcher 2's entire second act is a single choice. You either play one path or the other. That's cool. 

 

Final thoughts

It's got to do with expectation. If you have none, or if you expect an action game with very light roleplaying (i.e. mechanics geared to choice), then I think you'd be more than happy with DA:I. DA;I is a very beautiful and big game, one I am ultimately satisfied with, and one I'm glad I played, but it is also a Bioware game, and as a result of that pedigree, I expected my choices to have mattered more than they did, and that's a bit of shame. 

 

edit: DA:I won best roleplaying game for 2014, and so its developers, gamers at large, and the gaming press consider it a roleplaying game. I wish all self identified roleplaying games had more meaningful choice.


  • Jamesgirl, Moirnelithe, Uccio et 11 autres aiment ceci

#2
Althix

Althix
  • Members
  • 2 524 messages

on your tldr

 

yes you are correct. dai is an action game with bits of roleplaying. and this is how one must perceive this game.



#3
SarEnyaDor

SarEnyaDor
  • Members
  • 3 500 messages
Sadly, this may have the least choice of any modern BioWare game. If you don't believe that, try doing Wicked Eyes quest before Adamant and watch every character talk about the Wardens and spoil the crap out of you. Although they allow you to unlock any area in any order, their scripts are not at all adaptive and if you deviate from the set storyline it will screw your game up badly.

#4
torq_za

torq_za
  • Members
  • 45 messages

on your tldr

 

yes you are correct. dai is an action game with bits of roleplaying. and this is how one must perceive this game.

 

hehe... at least you had a choice to read the tldr. ;)



#5
scrutinizer

scrutinizer
  • Members
  • 125 messages

Keen observations, interesting points, smooth delivery. Agree wholeheartedly.



#6
golden24ersa

golden24ersa
  • Members
  • 149 messages

Yes, and I agree completely with everyone here. The other issue that my friend, and I noticed there is no urgency, so any "opposition", does not exist in this game. They could have solved this by having the enemy take areas, and have a back and forth. I mean regardless of decision you get the oo everything is Grand here at the keep. More than enough everything. No purpose at all for playing nice with anyone in the game, because you are basically, running through these areas alone.Your taking forts, etc... do nothing what-so-ever. You pick up items that are more than sufficient for killing everything, so the crafting turns into just happens to be there for people that want to gather, and craft. Nothing special really. Potions other than the health potion I didn't even remotely bother unlocking anything higher, even though I had the stuff to do it. And, did anyone else find it weird that all these mages are talking about healing, and oo learned this new healing thing, but you don't have a healer in your party? It is like can I toss Vivienne, and grab this mage hanging out in my keep instead?  They apparently know how to heal, which would be helpful, and prevent me having to micro manage. I happen to still enjoy the story very much, but for me I couldn't enjoy it, because of slow horse (mounts), Mountains everywhere, which makes mounts pretty pointless, and just easier walking, especially if you are OCD like I am and if something pings you pick it up. So yes 100 hour game for one play through, but lets be honest most of that is padding, which for me killed the enjoyment of the story, and unlike me3 DA:I has never been a game where the combat is why people play it. Never have I heard anyone say ooo this gameplay absolutely amazing, and soo worth playing this game, and that is for any of them in this series, and that isn't a bad thing it is good enough to allow the player to feel apart of the game, and allows for the story telling.



#7
Scoop

Scoop
  • Members
  • 13 messages

aye OP ... said it myself for what seems an eternity ... consoles/fps genre ... continues to drive stakes into the heart of the RPG genre. I just want to cry with each new release.


  • AnnJuly aime ceci

#8
Pasquale1234

Pasquale1234
  • Members
  • 3 079 messages

aye OP ... said it myself for what seems an eternity ... consoles/fps genre ... continues to drive stakes into the heart of the RPG genre. I just want to cry with each new release.


Give it a break. That the games are available on multiple platforms has little to do with the changes. Given the soaring costs of game development, it's pretty difficult for games to be financially viable on a single platform.

OP - great post.

I think a lot of what has changed in Bioware's more recent releases is this focus on cinematic storytelling. Those cinematics are very expensive, and combined with the voicing and animation of the PC, really limits the range of player choices and PC behaviors they can support.

Bioware always did have a great thing going in terms of supremely well-developed NPCs and followers, but have more recently expanded to defining the PC to a higher degree. In games like DAO, Fallout 3, and even Dragon's Dogma, I get to decide who my character is (and will become) and create my character's story via gameplay and emergent narrative. I've only recently started playing ME, and am enjoying it - Shepard is a great character, but is not and never will be mine. She can resolve situations in a manner befitting a paragon, a renegade, or something in-between - but ultimately, Shepard will always be Shepard. I can't influence the character in any way that is meaningful to me.

In games that are as cinematic as these have become, the story isn't so much created by the player as it is shown to the player... thus the stringent limitations on choice.

#9
Mushashi7

Mushashi7
  • Members
  • 824 messages

We are talking about the freedom of choice?

You are very much controlled in Dragon Age: Inquisition. I agree.

But I really don't care how the story goes, as long as it isn't a total waste. Every story has been told, so you will not find much originality.

(Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to provoke)

It's the way the story is told. And here's where you can wish for more options. I agree.

I do think the game is extremely well made. Interface, graphics etc. And I enjoy it a lot. The title 'Game Of The Year' is well deserved.

The next challenge for a company as Bioware must be how to create a game with much more freedom to chose your own path - and not quite so much to create a Hollywood movie.

I can't really give you any example of a game that gives you this freedom. Skyrim doesn't give you this option either. There is always a main story and some quests that glues the story together. Creating a game with 'absolute freedom' would take - god knows how - many years to create. A project like that is so gigantic I can't even imagine it.

In Dragon Age: Inquisition you have a certain freedom. You can chose when to do certain quests, but also limited to your level.



#10
Chaos17

Chaos17
  • Members
  • 796 messages
I can't really give you any example of a game that gives you this freedom.

 

1. Gambooks

2. Baldur's Gate serie

3. Torment

4. Fallout 1 and 2.

 

Those games tried their best 20 years ago before editors prefered to focus more on aesthetics rather on RP.

That's also why big Kickstarted projects like Divinity Orinal Sin, Wasteland 2, Pillars of Eterny, Tides of Nemeria were born.

Because we all want the c-rpg back.


  • Pasquale1234, Mushashi7 et Joxer aiment ceci

#11
Draining Dragon

Draining Dragon
  • Members
  • 5 513 messages
What's annoying to me is that they had so many resources, and instead of putting them towards making the game better, they put it towards low-quality filler.

They could have made our choices matter, and instead squandered the opportunity in an attempt to appeal to Skyrim fans.
  • Moirnelithe, AnnJuly et Chaos17 aiment ceci

#12
Joxer

Joxer
  • Members
  • 274 messages

Because we all want the c-rpg back.

 

Oh they know what we want. EA and likes.

They just don't want us to have it. Instead, we're getting EA Sims Freeplay on phones. Well, sell that to your mother, EA.

 

Thank god for Kickstarter!



#13
Mushashi7

Mushashi7
  • Members
  • 824 messages

I'm glad I don't have to be that exutive who decides how I should develope my game product so I can actually earn money and live from it.

I don't know what I would value the most of the priorities I am presented to?

Dragon Age: Inquisition appeals to the majority of game players aging from 10 years to 100. Both female and male in almost every social class.



#14
Joxer

Joxer
  • Members
  • 274 messages

From 10 years? LOL

 

In any case, India says otherwise.



#15
torq_za

torq_za
  • Members
  • 45 messages

<<SPOILERS>>

I don't see offering more choice as alienating, foreign, or anti-casual. Nor is it a trade-off, where action gameplay suffers because of a narrative choice. I wouldn't even say it's a niche old-timer thing. It's already there in the first part of the game, and by my account, this is the better part of the story. 

 

When you choose to align with the mages or the templars - either In Hushed Whispers or Champions of the Just, locking you out of the other one, it is awesome. It's a Choice. And it matters (well at least for the immediate future). You get different content. You may get a particular follower. Your choice matters. The story, for that part of the telling of it, is changed and you brought about that change. (Unfortunately, this choice doesn't seem to matter much after this, well not that I could see. i.e., you didn't have a bunch of mages hanging around skyhold pressing upon you their concerns, political problems, summoning demons, etc... I think there is one dialog with Josephine (maybe) and she says she'll handle it. It's still a great choice, and it's early in the story, so the promise of more choices like that beckons you deeper into the game.)

 

When I was looking forward to this game, I watched about an hour of Youtube remembering and learning the DA lore. I love the conflict between the chantry and the mages, because I feel quite strongly about my pro-mage stance (and have felt that way since DA:O). Being able to choose to side with the mages, and have the game warn me that there are no take-backsies, I was living the RPG GOTY choice is king dream. :) I was telling my TV "Yeah Thedas! Mages are gonna Rule!" 

 

Also, during this time there is seemingly so many cutscenes (enemies raining down from the sky in green comets, new NPCs talking to you after a battle, discussions with stuffy clerics) and cool dynamic events (the spontaneous crowd that gathers in Haven was great), and your home base being attacked so early with the introduction of your nemesis... that reached a pinnacle as your character runs across the tops of mountains to find Skyhold. This whole mountaintop impenetrable (we'll hopefully get to see just how safe) magically infused stone castle is MINE? Awe.....SOME! 

And then... what?

 

There are many dialogues about are you the Herald, was it Andraste, are you The Chosen One, etc... and while these offered great moment-to-moment choices in dialogue, they never seem to amount to some conclusion. I chose to not be the chosen one, to deny Andraste, to not believe in the human gods; it's good fodder. Does it need a big reveal? Perhaps not. But we didn't convince anyone of our belief system. Everyone that was super religious remained so. Everyone that was anti-mage remained so. Yet they tolerated Cole. ;)

So... seriously, no more choice. No bespoke content for a particular path. No choice that arose due to the choice between mages and templars. No consequence as to what you chose to upgrade in sky hold or the order you do it in. No point in those elf-orbs that Solas tells you touch that apparently keep rifts from opening up (How? Why? I've never seen a rift opened once I'd closed it). No point in clearing out an area. Yes, it's fun in and of itself. And yes there is a gameplay mechanic that says "To continue, earn x power". But you could earn power from collecting elf root. It's not like it's taking into account that the hinterlands have been restored - narratively. 

 

But back to my original point... they were doing choice, and even the illusion of choice incredibly well up until "From the Ashes", and from there we were on a very linear railroad. Choice creeps back in The Final Piece, who drinks from the well, and whether to do the puzzles and honour the elves or not, but as I don't understand the consequence of either choices (I did the puzzles, yet somehow still end up fighting the guardians and chose Morrigan to drink), I cannot be invested in their decision. 

With regards to companions, I appreciated the choice in leaving Blackwell to rot in jail. It's a difficult choice, because you're ultimately hurting your own effectiveness, but it was a choice (a bit of a sudden event, but okay). I suppose there are more people you can just chuck out of the Inquisition, but without context or a win/lose situation I don't see many players arbitrarily deciding not to accept any NPC.  I would've liked to have seen choices between two characters. You cannot have both Dorian and Vivienne (ideological conflicts)... or perhaps Solas versus Sera (racial conflicts).

 

What's good about it, is that when we talk about these kinds of games to our friends, we really only talk about our choices. 

Less choice means less stuff to talk about. 


  • Moirnelithe aime ceci

#16
Zachriel

Zachriel
  • Members
  • 362 messages

I think this guy said it pretty well:

 

http://johnswritersb...ge-inquisition/


  • Moirnelithe et torq_za aiment ceci

#17
torq_za

torq_za
  • Members
  • 45 messages

That's an excellently cogent write up, perfectly summarising and explaining everything.... really well written. Mine in comparison is just stream of consciousness stuff. Thanks for that link.