149 réponses à ce sujet

[Bleachrude]

The Tevinter templars don't have any powers as per World of Thedas and confirmed in-game. How they function I imagine is simply a numbers game...aka even a magister can be overwhelmed if you throw enough normal soldiers at them....

[raging_monkey]

Just retyping what I heard. Doesn't one of the comics have Alistair taking lyrium because it was required to be a templar?

yes but its complicated. Temps need the juice but chantry uses it as a control mech. Seekers are temps but more "wierd" its a mess imo

[draken-heart]

Just retyping what I heard. Doesn't one of the comics have Alistair taking lyrium because it was required to be a templar?

 

It is required, but Alistair was not technically a Templar, so should not have even had the spec in the first place in my opinion. If he is taking Lyrium in the Comics, then that in and of itself is a retcon of Alistair, as it means that he did complete training and fully became a Templar. I doubt they give initiates Lyrium.

[Birdy]

It is required, but Alistair was not technically a Templar, so should not have even had the spec in the first place in my opinion. If he is taking Lyrium in the Comics, then that in and of itself is a retcon of Alistair, as it means that he did complete training and fully became a Templar. I doubt they give initiates Lyrium.

But he did train to become a Templar. I believe Origins he says he just didn't take his vows.

**He's been there since he was what age, 10-12?

[raging_monkey]

But he did train to become a Templar. I believe Origins he says he just didn't take his vows.
**He's been there since he was what age, 10-12?

like i said complicated. No juice til after vows and he claims he never took them

[draken-heart]

But he did train to become a Templar. I believe Origins he says he just didn't take his vows.

**He's been there since he was what age, 10-12?

 

He (Alistair) also says he never actually became a Templar, meaning that the Vows are taken before becoming one.

[gothicshark]

After becoming good friends with Cullen, he told my Inquisitor about lyrium and templars taking it, and they get their first dose after a vigil to complete their training. 

 

This ties in to what Alistair said in Origins, and how he never became addicted to lyrium because he never took his vows. 

 

So, I have to ask, is lyrium being required for templar powers, which was retconned from what Alistair originally said, retconned again?

 

I saw no conflict, for me it was clear to be a proper anti-mage warrior you had to artifically gain magic power, ie through the use of lyrium as a templer, or becoming an anti-mage with the seekers.

Spoiler

(being made tranquil then being 'touched' by a spirit of faith to reverse the tranquility and gain Seeker powers)

 

Alistair being a warden has ingested a small amount of lyrium and blight taint, this can be used to draw upon Templar power. However as most Warden abilities are close to Blood magic, it would be safe to say that when a non-magic using Warden uses any magic like ability, it is more often related to blood empowerment than any thing else. 

[gothicshark]

Cassandra is directly said to have "all the powers of a templar without the lyrium requirement," so it definitely seems like it's not the source of their power at this point. Which makes the fact they take it pretty odd, if you ask me. I guess it's just the Chantry using it to control them.

She was talking about Seekers, who all have Templar Powers, and their own set of unique powers as well. 

[Notshauna]

*SNIP*

Alistair being a warden has ingested a small amount of lyrium and blight taint, this can be used to draw upon Templar power. *SNIP*

Clever that's technically true the joining does involve Lyrium so technically Alistair had taken lyrium and relatively recently, without his knowledge retcon debeaked. The same is true for the Warden. Of course when we start saying about him teaching you to teach say Sten or Oghren it breaks but that's honestly very niche.

[gothicshark]

I'm playing through Origins right now, and can confirm he says that. I haven't read any of the books or comics, though. Would make sense for lyrium to be only a means of control for the Chantry.

think of it like this, in order to become a Templar you need to train for years, you need to use magic inducing lyrium, and you need to take an oath and be given lyrium in a ceremony to make it official. Since non mages cannot use magic without special circumstances ie lyrium use. This means training Templars would be given small doses of lyrium so they can learn to use the powers, this of course can be done without the trainee being aware of the small doses they have ingested. Then with Alistair he did the Joining Ritual of the Grey Warden, where tainted Blood and lyrium is mixed together, essentially this is a form of Blood Magic. So Alistair Could easily had a large dose of lyrium without being aware of it. 

[Teshayel]

think of it like this, in order to become a Templar you need to train for years, you need to use magic inducing lyrium, and you need to take an oath and be given lyrium in a ceremony to make it official. Since non mages cannot use magic without special circumstances ie lyrium use. This means training Templars would be given small doses of lyrium so they can learn to use the powers, this of course can be done without the trainee being aware of the small doses they have ingested. Then with Alistair he did the Joining Ritual of the Grey Warden, where tainted Blood and lyrium is mixed together, essentially this is a form of Blood Magic. So Alistair Could easily had a large dose of lyrium without being aware of it. 

 

Makes sense for him to be unaware of being fed small doses of lyrium without any knowledge. The only issue that would come up in that case is the addiction. He'd still be addicted, and he wouldn't know to what. And, according to Samson in DA 2 and Cullen's reaction in DA:I, lyrium withdrawal is pretty nasty. I suppose he might ascribe the reaction to becoming a Warden though O.o

 

Well... If it has been retconned, then it's been retconned. Too bad, though. I liked the idea of a nasty, manipulating Chantry that made addicts of its armed forces for no more reason than to better control them

[Br3admax]

Templar need to take lyrium all the time to retain their powers. Every week or so, I believe. Alistair went a whole year without taking any.  

[Foune]

I read a post about this some hours ago where it was explained that the Warden's powers through darkspawn blood gives access to magical abilities, like a reaver uses dragon's blood for their powers and templars use lyrium. The warden gets access to more powers through blood which is played through in Warden's Keep, and I assume that this magical potential is enough to give Alistair his templar powers without lyrium, maybe he just dosn't know about it.

[TK514]

I'm just trying to get clarification on where, exactly the lore on lyrium being required for templars stands. 

 

It stands that Templars need lyrium to have powers.  Cullen says it, Cassandra says it, Gaider says it, Alistair says it in the comics.  The odd man out is Alistair not having taken his vows, and since the rest of the information is consistent, this would be the thing that was retconned.

[gothicshark]

Makes sense for him to be unaware of being fed small doses of lyrium without any knowledge. The only issue that would come up in that case is the addiction. He'd still be addicted, and he wouldn't know to what. And, according to Samson in DA 2 and Cullen's reaction in DA:I, lyrium withdrawal is pretty nasty. I suppose he might ascribe the reaction to becoming a Warden though O.o

 

Well... If it has been retconned, then it's been retconned. Too bad, though. I liked the idea of a nasty, manipulating Chantry that made addicts of its armed forces for no more reason than to better control them

 

I'm going to use caffeine addiction for an example. Most people are unaware of the massive withdrawals you get when you quiet caffeine, they include headaches and flu like symptoms and they can last for several months. Since it is common for people trying to get healthy to cut out sodas, these symptoms are actually common, most assume the headaches are common stress. 

 

Lyrium addiction would have massive withdrawals, and like any withdrawal it would seem like getting a bad flu. Alistair after the events of DA:O may have gotten a flu or flu like symptoms for a month or two, he would never realize it was lyrium withdrawl, also it wouldn't make for interesting story telling.

 

-King Alistair Option: And after his coronation as King of Fereldan King Alistair was laid out by the Flu for two months.  

[Teshayel]

-King Alistair Option: And after his coronation as King of Fereldan King Alistair was laid out by the Flu for two months.  

 

That made me chuckle

 

As far as the addiction is concerned, in Cullen's case, he complains of vivid nightmares and massive head aches. It makes sense for Ali to ascribe any symptoms he might experience to becoming a Warden (i.e. vivid nightmares), or having caught a nasty bug (i.e. head aches, shaking, fever, vomiting). 

 

Aaanyway I haven't finished the game yet, but I am hoping lyrium won't turn out to be the veins/blood of a god/the Maker. That would smack too much of the Malazzan Book of the Fallen

[dragonflight288]

It stands that Templars need lyrium to have powers.  Cullen says it, Cassandra says it, Gaider says it, Alistair says it in the comics.  The odd man out is Alistair not having taken his vows, and since the rest of the information is consistent, this would be the thing that was retconned.

 

Got it.

 

Between the games and the comics, I felt like my head was spinning trying to piece it together. 

 

From now on, I'll just hold up a cardboard sign that says "just go with it" and be done with it. 

[gothicshark]

Aaanyway I haven't finished the game yet, but I am hoping lyrium won't turn out to be the veins/blood of a god/the Maker. That would smack too much of the Malazzan Book of the Fallen

Steven Erikson is Canadian. Bioware is in Canada. Just saying...

[Bayonet Hipshot]

This is Cullen's actual full name :- Ser Cullen Stanton Retcon Rutherford of Honnleath. 

 

As you can see, Retcon is part of his name so retconning with him is to be expected. They have been retconning him and things to do with him since DAO.

[TK514]

Got it.

 

Between the games and the comics, I felt like my head was spinning trying to piece it together. 

 

From now on, I'll just hold up a cardboard sign that says "just go with it" and be done with it. 

 

That's been my method since it became clear that even the developers can't seem to manage a consistent opinion on various parts of their lore.  I don't like it, but I just shrug and deal with it since I'm fairly invested in the series at this point.

[Knight of Dane]

Has it ever been stated if the blight can sustain templar powers? It is a source of magic even if corrupted and it could explain how the HoF and Carver can learn it.

[Carmen_Willow]

Can we really count the comics and books as Cannon?  I guess what we need is a definition of "Cannon," because I don't think anywhere in the three games does it state that you have to take lyrium  to maintain your Templar powers.

[TK514]

Can we really count the comics and books as Cannon?  I guess what we need is a definition of "Cannon," because I don't think anywhere in the three games does it state that you have to take lyrium  to maintain your Templar powers.

 

It doesn't get more explicit than Cullen and Cassandra stating outright that Templars require it in DA:I.

[Br3admax]

Can we really count the comics and books as Cannon?  I guess what we need is a definition of "Cannon," because I don't think anywhere in the three games does it state that you have to take lyrium  to maintain your Templar powers.

can·non

ˈkanən/

noun

 

1. 1.

   a large, heavy piece of artillery, typically mounted on wheels, formerly used in warfare.

   synonyms: mounted gun, field gun, piece of artillery; More

    

    
2. 2.

   BILLIARDSBRITISH

   a carom.

verb

BILLIARDSSNOOKER

 

1. 1.

   make a cannon shot.

 

I hope that helps. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Can we really count the comics and books as Cannon?  I guess what we need is a definition of "Cannon," because I don't think anywhere in the three games does it state that you have to take lyrium  to maintain your Templar powers.

I am given to understand the comics and books are meant to be taken as canon. Also, the spec description in DA2 states that Hawke is using contraband lyrium to gain his Templar powers.