149 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

The Inquisitor could have credibly had the power to draw upon the Templar arts without lyrium or the Seeker ritual, since they have an item designed to basically flip off one of the major laws of that game's magic system stuck to them and granting them power. Though I don't think that's stated.

Cullen says the power will come at a great price, so I doubt they aren't taking lyrium. The only specialization that says the Inquisitor is using the Anchor to power it is rift mage, and really that's the only one it's really involved with. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Cullen says the power will come at a great price, so I doubt they aren't taking lyrium. The only specialization that says the Inquisitor is using the Anchor to power it is rift mage, and really that's the only one it's really involved with. 

What I meant was that I'd have accepted that explanation if Bioware gave it. I haven't played the game (fracking four core literal requirement) but I'd thought it was outright confirmed the Inquisitor was taking lyrium.

[Gallimatia]

Alistair's statement never made sense in DA:O itself. Nuggets of lyrium were worth good money even in Orzammar and you could make a fortune smuggeling the stuff to the Circle. Not to say the Chantry doesn't get better deals than a closet hiding dealer but even still lyrium was portrayed as much too expensive to consider using in that way. Our good friend Godwin also howlighted how the Chantry is not in control of lyrium and so the notion of them using it to control their soldiers is especially farfetched. Bhelen giving it to his soldiers to keep them in line would at least begin to make sense.

 

In short it's good Alistair has been retconned so the universe is more consistent.

[Br3admax]

What I meant was that I'd have accepted that explanation if Bioware gave it. I haven't played the game (fracking four core literal requirement) but I'd thought it was outright confirmed the Inquisitor was taking lyrium.

Well they definitely are, unless the philters we made were just for show, and Cullen thinks we're high off life. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well they definitely are, unless the philters we made were just for show, and Cullen thinks we're high off life.

The Inquisitor probably is high off life by the second or third High Dragon. Though I think getting high by killing those is another spec.

[MightyZan]

Well they definitely are, unless the philters we made were just for show, and Cullen thinks we're high off life. 

I doubt they are just for show.  The trainer talks about the fact that you have to take lyrium.

 

 

The Inquisitor probably is high off life by the second or third High Dragon. Though I think getting high by killing those is another spec.

That would be the best spec ever.

[SwobyJ]

Pretty sure we can go with:

-Lyrium is NOT required in order to LEARN Templar talents, as that way is likely more academic+martial art than magical. Doesn't mean you'll be good at them when you do use them, but sure, you can learn what they are and how to do them.

-Lyrium IS required in order to TRIGGER being able to USE Templar talents

-However, Lyrium is NOT required as often as the Templars take it. It may require on the degree of Fade connection an individual has, but I don't think its a stretch to believe that some Templars may require constant dosages while others can take a small dose and do quite well for a while

-And this latter case may be Alistairs'. We can imagine him as taking lyrium at some point in some way (we know that they take lyrium at their vows but is it confirms that this is the ONLY time they can EVER start using it? Or can it just be that if a Templar hasn't taken it yet, it'll have to be at their vows?). Alistair may have a stronger magical connection than most (and for all we can think, half-elf sons of mages erm, might have to do with this), and be proof that one doesn't NEED Lyrium CONSTANTLY in order to be a Templar

 

So I think the only thing that's confirmed is that lyrium or a related method that ties one to a realm of the Fade is needed in order to be a Templar. One doesn't necessarily need to take it all the time, take substantial amounts, etc. Some may need this, but for many or even most others, it could be more a combination of the Chantry keeping the Templars at the top of their Anti-Magical game, and the Chantry controlling the Templars through the leash of addiction and dependance on the lyrium flowing.

 

Whatever is the case, lyrium allows one, mage or non-mage, to tap into the greater magics of the Fade. The mage can act as the main lyrium source and thus can direct the elements in they way they desire, while the non-mage (Templar) instead acts as a conduit of a larger song/entity's will (the Maker or whatever else), becoming more filled with purpose and the urge to protect others, and a slightly altered perception of Thedas, which can get muddled when in withdrawal and the Templar 'comes back down to earth'.

Considering that the Anti-Magic abilities that Templars use are likely among the least magically impressive abilities, it shouldn't be surprising that it doesn't take a lot of lyrium in order to make it happen, at least it wouldn't in many/most cases. Alistair keeps his abilities for a while and we can imagine the Warden either taking lyrium or having that trace of lyrium in the Joining. Beyond that, Alistair can be easily understood as someone with limited knowledge (but still a good point about lyrium dependency).

 

 

TLDR; Yes, you have to take lyrium. But its more at some point, in some amount. One may not require constant dosage in order to keep abilities for some time, and one doesn't technically need lyrium in order to learn the abilities and how to do them (though they'd still need some sort of magical/spiritual activation in order to enact those abilities). Alistair can be understood as someone making commentary on the control system of the Templars, but not denying that lyrium is important to the whole Templar process, at some point, in some amount.

In a much more magical Thedas though, one that say, doesn't have the Veil - I'm sure lyrium isn't required at all, as you'd already be magical enough yourself that you could make yourself embody the essence of 'Anti-Magic' anyway.

[dragonflight288]

Maybe Alistair is an Almost-Mage, with a connection to the Fade so strong that he can use to a limited degree abilities from the school of spirit that templars share with a great deal of training, and that Fade connection is weak enough to keep him from being a mage. 

 

Okay, that's unlikely, was trying to be funny. 

[SwobyJ]

Maybe Alistair is an Almost-Mage, with a connection to the Fade so strong that he can use to a limited degree abilities from the school of spirit that templars share with a great deal of training, and that Fade connection is weak enough to keep him from being a mage. 

 

Okay, that's unlikely, was trying to be funny. 

 

I know its a funny and it is a rather long shot, but hey..

 

Wording it as 'connection (..) so strong' doesn't describe it right anyway. His connection would still be small - just more than most non-mages.

 

Mages hold lyrium within themselves (on whatever other plane of reality/Fade would show it). Non-Mages don't. For Alistair, all he'd need is to be something like a stronger dreamer than others, able to have a stronger connection to the Fade that may keep the lyrium that he's injected last longer than with other people, before it dissipates.

 

Something like that.

 

Essentially, he's got those magical genes without being a mage. Even if untrue, its a neat idea and could even be tied into his characterization as being both a natural leader (superior) and well liked, yet also being highly protesting to leadership and being treated poorly. I like that concept of him being, in his own still-rather-mortal way, between two worlds. Ranging anywhere from being a nobody drunk to the king of Ferelden, and that somehow being related to the degree of magic affinity in him.

 

 

 

I think it is implied in the lore that EVERYONE has mana. EVERYONE. Its the little bit of the divine in us. However, most have it to such a small degree that it is utterly negligible, only enough to allow us to dream in the Fade and have emotions and such.

 

Perhaps Alistair just has a little more mana than the regular guy, while still not being a mage? Whatever, I like the thought!

[Ranadiel Marius]

Whatever is the case, lyrium allows one, mage or non-mage, to tap into the greater magics of the Fade. The mage can act as the main lyrium source and thus can direct the elements in they way they desire, while the non-mage (Templar) instead acts as a conduit of a larger song/entity's will (the Maker or whatever else), becoming more filled with purpose and the urge to protect others, and a slightly altered perception of Thedas, which can get muddled when in withdrawal and the Templar 'comes back down to earth'.

Considering that the Anti-Magic abilities that Templars use are likely among the least magically impressive abilities, it shouldn't be surprising that it doesn't take a lot of lyrium in order to make it happen, at least it wouldn't in many/most cases. Alistair keeps his abilities for a while and we can imagine the Warden either taking lyrium or having that trace of lyrium in the Joining. Beyond that, Alistair can be easily understood as someone with limited knowledge (but still a good point about lyrium dependency).

Templar abilities aren't based on using the fade though. Templar abilities (as described by Solas) are probably more accurately described as being anti-fade abilities than anti-magic abilities. Templar abilities work by making the world more "real" making it harder for it to be manipulated like the fade or in other words they work by reinforcing reality. To put it yet another way, Templar abilities essentially temporarily turn mages into dwarves.....and now I am imagining a warning label on Templar armor, "Warning: Repeated use of Templar abilities may cause height loss in some mages, please consult your doctor before fighting Templars."

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That would be the best spec ever.

I believe it's called "Reaver."

[Tevinter Soldier]

I'm  just going to go with much like blood magic Templar abilities have never been displayed the way they should in games lorewise.

 

this is for a number of reasons including it annoying players if they have to guzzle lyrium and forget to bring the potion.

and the obvious controversy it would stir to have you play as what a templar really is: A Junky who murders people in the name of religion.

[Geth Supremacy]

shots fired, shots fired!

[errantknight]

It is required, but Alistair was not technically a Templar, so should not have even had the spec in the first place in my opinion. If he is taking Lyrium in the Comics, then that in and of itself is a retcon of Alistair, as it means that he did complete training and fully became a Templar. I doubt they give initiates Lyrium.

I hate massive retcons. Game trumps comic. I'm going with Alistair didn't take lyrium. Maybe he's the exception to the rule, but rewriting the whole character background is not ok, nor is having a voluntarily lyrium addicted king. That would mean thet he's not only kicked it once, but it was easy enough for him, or he's reckless enough, to take it again for a roadtrip.

[raging_monkey]

shots fired, shots fired!

187 SOMEONE CALL 911

[Geth Supremacy]

187 SOMEONE CALL 911

Be advised 2-9 intended target seems to be the entire Templar Order and anyone who has even entertained the idea of creating one.  Subject is now wielding what seems to be some type of ornate stick and is now claiming to be able to "crit for 5k" and any projectiles fired with be returned with deadly efficiency with an increased chance to crit on top of being able to cause sleep or slow.

 

Officers are standing down and refusing to proceed.  Unsure of best line of action. Over.

[Br3admax]

I hate massive retcons. Game trumps comic. I'm going with Alistair didn't take lyrium. Maybe he's the exception to the rule, but rewriting the whole character background is not ok, nor is having a voluntarily lyrium addicted king. That would mean thet he's not only kicked it once, but it was easy enough for him, or he's reckless enough, to take it again for a roadtrip.

Game doesn't trump comic, especially the person who wrote said comic, is the lead writer of Dragon Age. 

[Tevinter Soldier]

Be advised 2-9 intended target seems to be the entire Templar Order and anyone who has even entertained the idea of creating one.  Subject is now wielding what seems to be some type of ornate stick and is now claiming to be able to "crit for 5k" and any projectiles fired with be returned with deadly efficiency with an increased chance to crit on top of being able to cause sleep or slow.

 

Officers are standing down and refusing to proceed.  Unsure of best line of action. Over.

 

Oh this, you idiots thedas is a content in the southern hemisphere. you call 000! 

[raging_monkey]

Oh this, you idiots thedas is a content in the southern hemisphere. you call 000! 

really? Thought 911 was universal.. the more you know

[KainD]

Templars need lyrium for their powers.
Seekers are spirit warriors.
Alistair has magical blood.

[Tevinter Soldier]

really? Thought 911 was universal.. the more you know

 

most civilised countries will redirect 911 calls because, there's no nice way to say it, so i wont.

 

but only 112 is universal, doesn't matter where you are as it works off the satellites and puts you through to local EMS.

 

also fun fact in english speaking countries you should always put your emergency contact down as ICE

which stands for in case of emergency (well duh) this way if your unconscious or dead they have an easy way to contact your next of kin and or Robert Winkle.

[SwobyJ]

Templar abilities aren't based on using the fade though. Templar abilities (as described by Solas) are probably more accurately described as being anti-fade abilities than anti-magic abilities. Templar abilities work by making the world more "real" making it harder for it to be manipulated like the fade or in other words they work by reinforcing reality. To put it yet another way, Templar abilities essentially temporarily turn mages into dwarves.....and now I am imagining a warning label on Templar armor, "Warning: Repeated use of Templar abilities may cause height loss in some mages, please consult your doctor before fighting Templars."

 

By 'Fade' there, I actually meant it in the way that any mortal on Thedas calls anything beyond Thedas 'The Fade'.

 

But really I mean 'beyond the Fade' (the yellowy realm of dreams in DAO and DA2).

That (blue) lyrium has to do with what we may call the Maker or whatever other will of Order, and is at least closer to something like the realm we see of the eluvians than the yellow dream Fade and the green bizarre Fade. A magical realm ('heaven') that still remains a consistency and is not chaotic.

 

So essentially 'Fade but not at all Fade'.

 

It 'reinforces a reality', sure, but its a reality of the blue lyrium, one that enforces Templars as servants of the Maker, or whatever the blue lyrium sings to them as.

 

 

I don't think I'm wrong at all that the Templars 'use magic'. It is just of a very specific kind, that acts as a barrier/nullification/control/etc of other magics. It works to regulate and divert, not explode outwards (red) or twist (green).

 

You could call it the 'magic of purity', for better or worse. (sometimes very much of the worse, given the addictive qualities, and how it only allows a specific sort of magic without imagination, etc)

It wouldn't be called 'magic' though, as that is heretical and removes the mystery of the Maker. I love the hesitation that some Templar characters have about it XD. I do think that they're in denial, simply calling their abilities 'talents'.

 

 

A lot of this is very much theoretical, I fully admit. However, its still what I come up with after playing DAO, DA2, and all the content that I've seen in DAI so far.

 

I think its soon time for Bioware to reveal and not tease the concept that there are many planes of reality and most of the series has only dealt with the 'Thedas' mortal realm and the 'Fade' dream realm, but that there's actually so much more (that we've only seen teased with the pocket eluvian realm and the twisted 'Abyss Fade' realm 'near' the Black City. Geography matters but only in the sense that it relates energies from one plane to another.

 

And somewhere, there is the plane that the Templars tap into, the one that seems to relate to the Maker, and which has spread/left out/grown blue lyrium elsewhere for us to pick up.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

and the obvious controversy it would stir to have you play as what a templar really is: A Junky who murders people in the name of religion.

Murder is what the law decides it is. Also you can be a Templar without following the Chantry (powers-wise if not if by affiliation,) which means that all a Templar really is as is relevant to the players is "junkie with magic powers from his drug."

[Tevinter Soldier]

Murder is what the law decides it is. Also you can be a Templar without following the Chantry (powers-wise if not if by affiliation,) which means that all a Templar really is as is relevant to the players is "junkie with magic powers from his drug."

 

FOX NEWS SPECIAL INVESTIGATION: VIDEO GAME PROMOTES DRUG USE, PROMISING USER'S WILL GET MAGICAL POWERS!

[shinyelf]

Didn't Alistair indirectly take lyrium during his initiation to the wardens? As far as i undestood it involved drinking lyrium treated darkspawn blood, and if one consider lyrium heroin or roids I'd think that blighted blood and lyrium would be heroin on herion, or steroids on  steroids. Might very well have given him a little something extra that most templars didn't, atleast for a while.  

 

In that case we'd only have to accept that he had learned the theory behind using templar powers without being initiated, which seems pretty reasonable to me.