Guest_john_sheparrd_*
So I absolutely hated the explanation of the Reapers motivations in ME 3 and I was just doing my own headcanon and thinking about how it could have been done better
something that fits what sovereign said in ME 1 and Harbinger in ME2
thoughts? In this headcanon synthesis and control are also "wrong" endings (just my opinion) I'm not a fan of IT but I like the idea that the starchild ( who shouldn't be a Rogue AI thats just lame) is fooling Shepard
Any help would be greatly appreciated
About the original explanation, I think it's rather nice, if you put it in the way I understand it, I can understand why the Reapers did that:
Sovereign and Harbinger both are believer of the theory of Entropy (theory frequently used in thermodynamics). The most important part is that entropy is more or less a measure of disorder and chaos.
So Sovereign believes strongly that our universe is driven by chaos, which is pretty accurate: if you don't put energy in chaos, it will stay chaos; but if you put energy in chaos, it will become order. It's just like your desk at home/work: leave it be, and it becomes messy, but put energy in it, and it will stay clean.
Sovereign just wants the universe to be order (because he is programmed the do so): why does it have to be in order? Because otherwise the sh*tload of chaos would destry the universe :there would be war (Cfr. Geth-Quarian), planets would disappear (Cfr. the Mu relay), races will be destroyed due to their self created pollution (Cfr. Rakhana: the Drell homeworld).
If all uncivilized life (life forms who don't fight, pollute, etc.) just disappeares, the universe can restore itself, and there will be balance: the chaos will disappear, and order will come. The harvested species will give their knowlegde to the reapers, so they can use in in their advantage, but cleansing the galaxy of all technology also makes sure that other generations to come will make a fresh start.
Other explanations:
Because Reapers just hate people? I don't know haha 
The motives of the Reapers are also tied to unused plot elements which is why their motives for doing what they do with the current cycle is so off in ME3. This is simply a universe that was built upon as development continued. ME Universe was not pre-determined which is why ME2 introduced unused plot elements that were never talked of ever again in ME3.
So far the comments have proved both eloquent and revealing. That ends here I'm afraid. It's pretty clear to me that the reapers are not big fans of darwinism, and they turn up every 50,000 years because they are robots and are programmed to do so on the basis that 50,000 years is sufficient time for organics to get themselves in a mess generally and begin to threaten THE plan whatever that may be. Look on the reapers as an auto- weed killer which organics are not too keen on. Works for me!
I would have preferred:
Organic life is like a plague. Once it develops intelligence and leaves its own homeworld, the simple mathematics of the Fermi equation ensure that it will rapidly spread throughout the galaxy - even at sublight speeds. There are a finite number of planets and resources in the galaxy. Due to exponential population growth, within hundreds of millions of years organic spacefaring races will dominate the entire Milky Way galaxy.
All inhabitable worlds colonized. All terraformable planets terraformed. Other life stagnates.
Thus, cleanse the galaxy at periodic intervals, and allow life to continuously flourish. To quote the last paragraph of The Origin of Species:
"endless forms most beautiful will continuously evolve"
And so it would continue, so long as the "cleansing fire" of the Reapers continues. And the harvest is exactly what a cleansing fire does to a forest - it is a necessary facet to prevent ecosystem stagnation.
This would also explain the Fermi paradox - would have been a nice touch.
You are ignoring the other 100.000.000.000 galaxies in the observable universe. Some of which are definately within reach of the milkyway considering that the reapings have been going on for 2.000.000.000 years or so.
And the fact that genuinely cleansing a galaxy, not to mention the 99.999.999.999 other galaxies required to guarantee it's effectiveness, is such massive undertaking in ressources and materials, that you could have sustained entire organic civilisations instead.
Also evolution is still acting on the organic species, even in the ME universe. It hasn't stagnated.
...
Personally I prefer the following explanation: Organic sentients are like bacon to their mechanical tastebuds.
It's subjective and thus doesn't have to adhere to any logic.
1) the entire premise of the Reapers ignores all other galaxies. No matter their purpose, the central tenet of it is flawed because of that. So its irrelevant.You are ignoring the other 100.000.000.000 galaxies in the observable universe. Some of which are definately within reach of the milkyway considering that the reapings have been going on for 2.000.000.000 years or so.
And the fact that genuinely cleansing a galaxy, not to mention the 99.999.999.999 other galaxies required to guarantee it's effectiveness, is such massive undertaking in ressources and materials, that you could have sustained entire organic civilisations instead.
Also evolution is still acting on the organic species, even in the ME universe. It hasn't stagnated.
...
Personally I prefer the following explanation: Organic sentients are like bacon to their mechanical tastebuds.
It's subjective and thus doesn't have to adhere to any logic.
1) the entire premise of the Reapers ignores all other galaxies. No matter their purpose, the central tenet of it is flawed because of that. So its irrelevant.
2) cleansing an entire galaxy would be difficult, yes - hence the relay network.
3) you missed my point entirely. Obviously allelic variation doesn't stop, but prior organic races would occupy ecological niches on all potentially inhabitable worlds, excluding new, diverse, and native species from otherwise filling them. It's a basic premise of the modern evolutionary synthesis - merely extended to consider the entire milky way.
1. No, it is only flawed, if their motivation or purpose is dependent on nigh perfect galaxy and universe wide reach, such as original reapings and/or cleansings. Organic Sentient Bacon Theory isn't.
2. There is between 100-400 billion stars in the milky way. There might be as many or more planets (some guesstimate around 40 billion. earth like planets), not to mention moons, asteroids, comets and what not that might carry life around. Granted, only focusing on FTL capable species does narrow the mission, but it also can make it harder, afterall, an FTL capable species can hide anywhere, even in empty space (volume of the milkyway is about 39 x 1012 cubic lightyears). Even if mass relays covers 1000 cubic lightyears each it would take 39 billion relays? .... It would probably be far more efficient to feed the central blackhole just enough to irradiate the entire galaxy and sterilize it.
3. Based on what evidence? No organic race, that we know off, in the me universe, has ever done that. Ie. humans, or even asari, don't exist on every planet, moon, asteroid, comet and grain of spacedust. Also evolution would mold them to fit those evolutionary niches, does it really matter where the original abiogenesis came from and is there any evidence that it would necessarily make them fundamentally different enough to warrant such a widescale waste of raw materials and energy?
I actually like the idea that the Reapers are an ancient, godlike apex race whose origins are lost in time and never fully explained. In this scenario the harvest is nothing more than a forced 'tribute' by the galaxy's sentient species, who have the dubious 'privilege' of being uplifted into Reaper form. No Catalyst, no Leviathans, no solution.
To me, this still fits with 'salvation through destruction' and the whole Soverign bit of being beyond our puny human comprehension. It would also allow the possibility for the Reapers to be harvesting other nearby galaxies in between the Milky Way cycles.
I could go with that, since it doesn't have to be rational.
Personally I had no problem with the reaper's motivations and felt it was really deep and interesting, especially the more you look into it. It's explained pretty well in the series (not just the third game) and is fairly consistent with everything else. You say you want something that fits with what Harbinger said in ME2 but... what we have already fits fine. Sovereign not so much, but Harbinger definitely fits into this motivation.
Here's a few questions to you:
In your own words, could you explain what exactly you THINK the reaper's motivation is portrayed to be in the series? Not what you want it to be but rather what exactly do you think it is? What do you think they are? Now what do you think supports their motivation, what do you think supports it? Where do you see connections to the motivation?
In short:
What do you think the reapers are?
What do you think the reapers do?
Why do you think they do that, from their preservative?
What evidence, if any, supports their reasoning?
These questions are in relation to what you believe is actually in the game and not just headcanon material.
I would have preferred:
Organic life is like a plague. Once it develops intelligence and leaves its own homeworld, the simple mathematics of the Fermi equation ensure that it will rapidly spread throughout the galaxy - even at sublight speeds. There are a finite number of planets and resources in the galaxy. Due to exponential population growth, within hundreds of millions of years organic spacefaring races will dominate the entire Milky Way galaxy.
All inhabitable worlds colonized. All terraformable planets terraformed. Other life stagnates.
Thus, cleanse the galaxy at periodic intervals, and allow life to continuously flourish. To quote the last paragraph of The Origin of Species:
"endless forms most beautiful will continuously evolve"
And so it would continue, so long as the "cleansing fire" of the Reapers continues. And the harvest is exactly what a cleansing fire does to a forest - it is a necessary facet to prevent ecosystem stagnation.
This would also explain the Fermi paradox - would have been a nice touch.
Having in mind how enormous our galaxy is (not to mention the rest of the Universe), I find that theory pretty....pessimistic.
I should also mention how simplistic is to divide the galaxy in those 5 regions (Terminus, Attican Traverse, Inner/Outer Council and Earth Space). I mean, what the **** for wants humans roughly 1/6 of the galaxy?? In diameter terms, that's about 20.000 light-years, and 20-50 billion stars!
Guest_john_sheparrd_*
I actually like the idea that the Reapers are an ancient, godlike apex race whose origins are lost in time and never fully explained. In this scenario the harvest is nothing more than a forced 'tribute' by the galaxy's sentient species, who have the dubious 'privilege' of being uplifted into Reaper form. No Catalyst, no Leviathans, no solution.
To me, this still fits with 'salvation through destruction' and the whole Soverign bit of being beyond our puny human comprehension. It would also allow the possibility for the Reapers to be harvesting other nearby galaxies in between the Milky Way cycles.
I love this idea and it fits what Sovereign and Harbinger said to Shepard "you exist because we allow it " etc. and their general contempt for all organic life
ohh god why couldn't Bioware just go with that? so simple and yet better than their silly logic
maybe you could add the Leviathans to the mix because they possess the same charactersistics as the Reapers
they created Harbinger as their image only better (synthetic + organic) so he instead turned on them as he thinks he (and all the following reapers) are the apex of evolution
Changing the story as little as possible. I would say the Reapers knock out organic species before they develop technology that could destroy entire planets, systems, etc. The Reapers in this equation could be survivors of a past war where the participants had such weapons and the Crucible would be a surviving weapon from that time. Whether the Reapers are acting out of self interest or for some grander purpose would be left ambiguous. The ME2 Reaper would simply be a replacement for Sovereign and organics were needed because Reaper tech is based off biotics, which is why they needed organic tissue to create some space-magic tech to facilitate that.
A bigger idea would be to change the Reapers to a force that spans multiple galaxies. Their history would be obscured with possible origins ranging from an older species rising to dominance, war machines who destroyed their creators long ago, or even beings who have existed as long as the universe or longer. Their primary goals would never be revealed, although speculated, and their harvest of organics would be a tertiary goal they do to insure something as simple as preventing competition or building new Reaper tech that is based on biotics, as I said above. Beating them (or not) would require a bunch of stuff that would require massive rewrites so it really is just a silly idea of mine.
They're scared of Blasto
Having in mind how enormous our galaxy is (not to mention the rest of the Universe), I find that theory pretty....pessimistic.
Is it really all that different from what the prothean's accomplished in their relatively short cycle? They subjugated all races they encountered and destroyed those that resisted. Look at the leviathans, they controlled the entire galaxy and used everyone as pawns to serve them, tools to serve their purpose. This isn't precisely the same principle of keeping other forms of life from being formed as Kaboom suggests, however it does go a long way to show the negative effects organics can have on the galaxy. Imagine if the prothean cycle, for example, never ceased. We humans would likely be slaves in the prothean empire.
The cycle provides a fresh slate for the next cycle to evolve and advance.
I should also mention how simplistic is to divide the galaxy in those 5 regions (Terminus, Attican Traverse, Inner/Outer Council and Earth Space). I mean, what the **** for wants humans roughly 1/6 of the galaxy?? In diameter terms, that's about 20.000 light-years, and 20-50 billion stars!
Yes that certainly is a lot of space. However, as massive as it is, not every planet you encounter is suitable for human life. So 1/6 of the galaxy isn't really a lot, relative to how much of the space can actually be effectively used for the human species in a habitable sense.
I love this idea and it fits what Sovereign and Harbinger said to Shepard "you exist because we allow it " etc. and their general contempt for all organic life
ohh god why couldn't Bioware just go with that? so simple and yet better than their silly logic
maybe you could add the Leviathans to the mix because they possess the same charactersistics as the Reapers
they created Harbinger as their image only better (synthetic + organic) so he instead turned on them as he thinks he (and all the following reapers) are the apex of evolution
I'm still curious to hear what it is about the reaper motivation you consider 'silly logic' to see how much of that is genuine and how much is derived from a misunderstanding or general misconception - as a lot of hate for motivation usually is in my experience. If you elaborate on all this we might be able to help explain it to you. Do you really feel that way or is it just an excuse to hate on the ending because it left you dissatisfied emotionally?
Just to control things. Over time, as more and more species become space faring and more advanced, they take up space, some become dominant over others, they consume resources etc. etc. The Reapers just streamline the whole thing by culling organics, clearing the way for new civilisations to rise, regulating the rate at which they eat up the galaxy's resources and yes, stopping them from creating Synthetics who could potentially go on the rampage. The cycles just make things neater and keep the Reapers in control.
It never needed to be something "you could not even comprehend", tbh the writers just made things harder for themselves with Sovereign's speech. Although it was a very good speech and had me wondering about the Reapers for years, but ultimately it just rendered the actual explanation disappointing. Also I could have done without the Catalyst malarkey, its whole existence pretty much ruined the actual Reapers as antagonists.
Is it really all that different from what the prothean's accomplished in their relatively short cycle? They subjugated all races they encountered and destroyed those that resisted. Look at the leviathans, they controlled the entire galaxy and used everyone as pawns to serve them, tools to serve their purpose. This isn't precisely the same principle of keeping other forms of life from being formed as Kaboom suggests, however it does go a long way to show the negative effects organics can have on the galaxy. Imagine if the prothean cycle, for example, never ceased. We humans would likely be slaves in the prothean empire.
The cycle provides a fresh slate for the next cycle to evolve and advance.
Yes that certainly is a lot of space. However, as massive as it is, not every planet you encounter is suitable for human life. So 1/6 of the galaxy isn't really a lot, relative to how much of the space can actually be effectively used for the human species in a habitable sense.
That's what space stations are for. Pretty sure there would be tons of people who even would prefer living in one rather than on a planet. Or else, terraforming.
And about the 1st paragraph....alert, indoctrinated presence detected
Having in mind how enormous our galaxy is (not to mention the rest of the Universe), I find that theory pretty....pessimistic.
I should also mention how simplistic is to divide the galaxy in those 5 regions (Terminus, Attican Traverse, Inner/Outer Council and Earth Space). I mean, what the **** for wants humans roughly 1/6 of the galaxy?? In diameter terms, that's about 20.000 light-years, and 20-50 billion stars!
Yeah, I'm not sure why ME3 suddenly had a huge patch of galaxy called Alliance Space. Surely when they became a Council race it became Council space, and even if not it shouldn't have been nearly that big. That aside, I think it's said not even .1% of the galaxy has been explored by the time of ME1, which makes perfect sense. But if you think of it this way, what counts as territory isn't the billions of stars within, just a few key systems with Relays leading into the territory, if you know what I mean. The Alliance probably held more along the lines of 10 or so star systems.
Guest_john_sheparrd_*
Is it really all that different from what the prothean's accomplished in their relatively short cycle? They subjugated all races they encountered and destroyed those that resisted. Look at the leviathans, they controlled the entire galaxy and used everyone as pawns to serve them, tools to serve their purpose. This isn't precisely the same principle of keeping other forms of life from being formed as Kaboom suggests, however it does go a long way to show the negative effects organics can have on the galaxy. Imagine if the prothean cycle, for example, never ceased. We humans would likely be slaves in the prothean empire.
The cycle provides a fresh slate for the next cycle to evolve and advance.
Yes that certainly is a lot of space. However, as massive as it is, not every planet you encounter is suitable for human life. So 1/6 of the galaxy isn't really a lot, relative to how much of the space can actually be effectively used for the human species in a habitable sense.
I'm still curious to hear what it is about the reaper motivation you consider 'silly logic' to see how much of that is genuine and how much is derived from a misunderstanding or general misconception - as a lot of hate for motivation usually is in my experience. If you elaborate on all this we might be able to help explain it to you. Do you really feel that way or is it just an excuse to hate on the ending because it left you dissatisfied emotionally?
Don't get me wrong Mass Effect is probably my favourite game series and I can still work with the ending that was given (with headcanon)
but the "real" ending what Mac Walters and Casey made and what they envisioned.. its just bad and some of the worst writing I have ever seen
Long rant:
the existence of the star child, his dumb logic (http://1.bp.blogspot...Q/s1600/f95.jpg)
the whole synthetics vs organics subplot being dragged into the reaper storyline
synthesis and control as options being asspulled out of nowhere
Thank god for my headcanon (and to the people who helped with that) otherwise I wouldn'T be able to enjoy this series again
Theory: the Reapers we encounter early on did not explain their motives because they figured we were not capable of understanding them. Reality: most people do not understand their motives after explanation.
Theory fits evidence.
Yo dawg. We knew you were going to create synthetics that were going to kill you so we made a bunch of synthetics to kill you before you made synthetics that would kill you. The cycle cannot be broken yo!
Mine is probably contradictory to Sovereign at some point but before ME3 I was so ready to delve into the Reapers' backstory and motivations. My idea after the conversation on Rannoch was that Reapers were harvesting all advanced races to avoid an overgrowth of intelligent life to the point where they would be unable to keep their hands to themselves and keep the peace and essentially pollute the world, wage wars, create over-intelligent life; essentially overbloating of intelligent life and their creations.
I actually expected what happened in the end to happen on some level but only not just the idea of synthetics vs organic life, but rather a collection of problems and issues that are caused when organics as well as synthetics outgrow themselves.
They say we humans live on Earth on borrowed time. My idea was basically that but stretched to fit the entire galaxy of Mass Effect and that Reapers were just guardians of the universe built to preserve every galaxy to avoid letting them succumb to their own overgrowth, pollution and destruction.
Kind of on point with what Drew Karpyshyn had intended and kind of on point with what Sovereign says that "Organics are a genetic mutation. An accident." that only evolve and grow to cause theirs and everyone else's own and eventual downfall.
Yeah, I'm not sure why ME3 suddenly had a huge patch of galaxy called Alliance Space. Surely when they became a Council race it became Council space, and even if not it shouldn't have been nearly that big. That aside, I think it's said not even .1% of the galaxy has been explored by the time of ME1, which makes perfect sense. But if you think of it this way, what counts as territory isn't the billions of stars within, just a few key systems with Relays leading into the territory, if you know what I mean. The Alliance probably held more along the lines of 10 or so star systems.
That makes a bit more sense, even if I still find that division to be pretty senseless.
That's what space stations are for. Pretty sure there would be tons of people who even would prefer living in one rather than on a planet. Or else, terraforming.
Sure, you can go that route. That pales in comparison to having an actual planet to call home, though. Just ask the quarians who's entire civilization for the past few centuries has been living onboard space ships. Having a habitable planet is better than just having a space station.
And about the 1st paragraph....alert, indoctrinated presence detected
Doesn't take away from the validity of it, though. 
Yeah, I'm not sure why ME3 suddenly had a huge patch of galaxy called Alliance Space. Surely when they became a Council race it became Council space, and even if not it shouldn't have been nearly that big. That aside, I think it's said not even .1% of the galaxy has been explored by the time of ME1, which makes perfect sense. But if you think of it this way, what counts as territory isn't the billions of stars within, just a few key systems with Relays leading into the territory, if you know what I mean. The Alliance probably held more along the lines of 10 or so star systems.
Factor in the detail that the council has strict policies against activating relays. Humans didn't. It makes sense we 'discovered' and claimed a nice chunk of space outside our home. No other species was willing to explore those relays due to the council restrictions. The galaxy map could and likely is just a small portion of a much bigger connected system of relays. Imagine all the relays never activated, all the gateways to other regions of space that are just sitting out there doing nothing.
I can see political pressure being a cause of Alliance keeping that section of discovered space themselves rather than being absorbed into Council Space. Blame it on the turians. Lol.
Long rant:the existence of the star child, his dumb logic (http://1.bp.blogspot...Q/s1600/f95.jpg)
Incorrect. This is a gross misconception that confused fans should really stop perpetuating because it only spreads more confusion. The reapers do NOT kill all organics. They harvest the advanced ones to preserve them in reaper form. Each reaper is a billion organic minds linked to form one gestalt consciousness. The memories and experiences of the species are forever preserved in immortal reaper bodies, ascending to new form of existence. The reaper's view this as preservation of life. It is not life as you know it but it is life never the less.
The multi-billion year old species that has been observing the galaxy (Leviathan) has noticed this pattern where organics create machines that in turn rebel against the creators. Organic life is wasted, extinguished. This pattern exists because immortal, practically god-tier organics have observed its pattern for eons. They created the intelligence which in turn observed this pattern for untold number of years (measured in millions, not our puny decades and centuries) and it too noticed the pattern. It's objective was to preserve life. It does this through the harvest through its definition of what classifies as life. Big shock that an AI doesn't view the organic body as a prerequisite for life.
It is wasn't only the billion+ year old reapers that have observed this pattern. It wasn't even just the EVEN OLDER multibillion year old Leviathans that observed this pattern. Even the protheans were able to discern the existence of a pattern. You may not like the pattern but in the fictional universe of Mass Effect it exists. It's as much part of the lore as the existence of mass relays. Nothing we see contradicts it. You can't view it relative to our petty, utterly insignificant timeline. The leviathan's and reapers are BILLIONS of years old. Their prespective on this pattern is not diminished by any of our limited observations. If anything, its proved. Even in our short existence as a cycle we can point to synthetic-organic conflict arising. The quarians are the perfect example, they're practically Mass Effect's version of Galatica.
If you'd like I could elaborate even more on this and help, hopefully, explain it to you. The reaper's are, imo, a immensely fascinating nemesis and don't get nearly as much credit as they should for their complexity. They're so much more as just these machines that kill people. That is a gross misunderstand on the reapers, one even Edi tried to smack you across the face about in the suicide mission.
the whole synthetics vs organics subplot being dragged into the reaper storyline
This would had been a valid complaint even if they went with the dark-energy twist. At least synthetic vs organic isn't something they pulled out their ass at the last moment. This is a consistent theme in the entire trilogy.
synthesis and control as options being asspulled out of nowhere
Synthesis I agree with. That ending is utterly nonsensical and I shudder to admit its existence. Control however? You think CONTROL is being asspulled out of nowhere? Did we play the same game? Control vs Destroy has been a reoccuring theme in the entire trilogy. Especially in relation to the reapers. Infact a good chunk of ME3 is spent with you talking/fighting Cerberus over CONTROLLING the reapers. Control was brought up from the very beginning of the game. Like, the first mission on mars introduces the concept and even shows the strives Cerberus has already made in their soldiers. We see the control ending gradually being escalated higher and higher. First with TIM's claims and arguments throughout the game and then with Horizon where we actually see the progress thats being achieved.
Synthesis definitely came out of no where, or at least the way it is portrayed in that ending. Control was there in the trilogy from day one with ME3 being the biggest advocate. If you seriously played through ME3 without noticing the constant foreshadowing for control, I don't know what to tell you. It's there, even if you didn't notice it, its objectively there. I find it surprising that there are people who didn't see it it, in all honesty. It's practically hammered home to you repeatedly. It was like it was jumping up and down in the background every 10 minutes going "FORESHADOWING FORESHADOWING FORESHADOWING!"
Theory: the Reapers we encounter early on did not explain their motives because they figured we were not capable of understanding them. Reality: most people do not understand their motives after explanation.
Theory fits evidence.
It's depressing how true this is. If Bioware did anything right with the ending its this. They said we wouldn't understand the reapers and clearly they were right, even when they go out of their way to explain it. It is all the more depressing that I genuinely don't believe people CAN'T understand it - its just that they don't want to. Many people seem to be so emotionally distraught by the ending that they latch on to ANYTHING that gives them more justification to hate it. It seems like they WANT to hate it.
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