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Please provide your own theories on the Reapers motivations


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#76
Wayning_Star

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the reapers are all there is in their universe, being Apex and all... then, their own creation took that away, completely destroying that identity. Their motivation stopped from being apex to being at all.  The weird part imho is that they were only just surviving by seeing the need to control the very reality that surrounded their existence. That what started out just an ideal tool, ended up being a 'better' them. A new and improved Apex race of one (catalyst) who is the boss reaper. As we know that the leviathan are the pre-racial/missing link between the catalyst alone and the catalyst cloud linked to all the races within the reaper ships. The leviathan actually exist within that reality somewhere.

 

In any event the reapers "motives" started out simply to harvest beings like the catalyst did the leviathan, who ended up the first of such a race. After so many cycles the catalyst/head reaper "changed" with the times and the un imaginable "Mentality" of the cloud. The Geth have an uncanny/inorganic insight as well as the machine people, who are related to the first races in the MEU.



#77
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This has probably already been addressed in these pages but please humour me and help me out with something. The original Mass Effect tells us that the reapers return every 50k years or so to harvest all advanced organic life in the galaxy. I read into this that they were indiscriminate, harvesting all species with the same motives. Mass Effect 2 introduces us to reaper reproduction, for lack of a better term, that Shepard is the reason why humanity were chosen to be this cycle's new reaper. This is backed up by some of Harbinger's taunts such as: "Asari: reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.” and “Turian: you are considered...too primitive.”

 

So what happens to these species? They get "reaped", but is Harbinger saying they aren't worth preserving as a unique consciousness? Also, does this go beyond the primary purpose behind the reapers which is explained by the Catalyst? Why have they evolved this racial preference?



#78
Vazgen

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These can be simple taunts, attempts to demoralize your squadmates. Or it can be that this racial preference was indeed present but after Shepard defeated Collectors with multi-racial crew they were all made a target. Or they are not "reaped" at all, and simply provide shock troops for Reapers while the primary target - humanity is harvested. Or it's another issue of ME2 introducing completely new plot elements and failing to develop them.


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#79
ImaginaryMatter

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These can be simple taunts, attempts to demoralize your squadmates. Or it can be that this racial preference was indeed present but after Shepard defeated Collectors with multi-racial crew they were all made a target. Or they are not "reaped" at all, and simply provide shock troops for Reapers while the primary target - humanity is harvested. Or it's another issue of ME2 introducing completely new plot elements and failing to develop them.

 

Harbinger is an asshat. Sovereign was a chump. The Reapers probably have no idea what they're saying, like a Furby -- a giant, sinister looking Furby programmed by the Catalyst to say... whatever.


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#80
Valmar

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I don't think that's really the case. Yes, there are organics and they fight synthetics but I don't think that's thematically what the conflict is about. Zombie stories aren't thematically about people vs zombies even thought that's a recurring conflict, the zombies usually represent something else like consumerism, self destructive nature, human hubris, etc. Synthetics in the ME series increasingly became stand ins for racial issues. They were just another rubber headed alien... only with metal instead of rubber. Furthermore, anything that could be gleamed was concluded with Rannoch.

 

To clarify, I don't mean the main theme of the series was synthetic vs organic... though the reapers are synthetic... and the entire plot revolves around us trying to stop them from ending us... hm.

 

Anyway, my point was that there are aspects of synthetic vs organic throughout the trilogy. There is MORE to it then just conflict, yes, but conflict itself is a reoccurring theme. Zombie movies have a theme of having zombies in them, with humans trying to survive against said zombies. There may be a deeper meaning where they're representative of something else and thats fine, but they're still zombie movies.

 

For example look at the Walking Dead game series. The majority of that game, the main theme, I would argue isn't actually about the zombies. Its about the group of people trying to survive together with zombies just being in the background. The games focus is more on the characters surviving then it is the actual zombies, imo. That probably has something to do with why I loved the series so much even though I'm not really a fan of zombies. 

 

However, no matter how prevalent other themes or nuances are present in the series you can't deny that zombies are a theme, regardless of what else they may or may not represent on a metaphorical level. Synthetic vs organic in Mass Effect has been a theme present in each title. You can go through the entire trilogy and find instances where this is the case. The main story of the first game revolves almost entirely around this conflict as the main enemy force is the geth.

 

You can argue that collaboration and peace is a theme as well because you have all these races coming together putting aside their differences to work together, even the geth later on. However that doesn't change the fact that the conflict is present in all of them. I'm not saying this is the only theme but it IS a theme. Hence why I don't think its fair for people to act like it is something only brought up in the ending - because it isn't.

 

As for Rannoch resolving the issue, I say nay. Billions of years of observing organics has concluded that there exists a pattern of conflict. Shepard potentially brokering a peace with the quarians and the geth (which up until the ending has only lasted what, weeks?). In the Mass Effect universe, which is fictional mind you, this pattern exists. It exists because beings that have existed and observed the cycles of billions of years have observed it to be so. This billion+ year old perspective is not made invalid just because the geth are playing nice for an astonishing few weeks.

 

I will say that synthetic vs organic being a reoccurring pattern in the galaxy is something only ME3 brought up (though not at the end) but regardless the synthetic vs organic bit itself, even if only in our cycle, has been present in the trilogy since day one.

 

 

 

The end was dealing with an issue that the story had no where near enough depth or intelligence to support. This is really evident when you look at the Catalyst's language. It uses such vague and generic vocabulary that you can use it's argument to talk about almost any kind of conflict you want. I find it telling that no where in the ending sequence we can talk about the past experiences in dealing with synthetics.

 

 

The Leviathan dlc clarifies some of it. Frankly I think the Leviathan dlc was made specifically to give credibility to the ending. Not very satisfied with it, personally, but there it is. Personally I think the ending, at least in its current form, would be the WORSE time to go over such details. The fact that Shepard talks to the starbrat as much as he does is pretty staggering, giving the gravity of the situation. Every moment you waste bickering with the kid how many people die right outside? Our fleets will not last forever, they're giving their all to protect the crucible at all costs. While they're giving their lives to ensure the crucible isn't destroyed you're standing up there wanting to give a lecture to the master of reapers. 

 

This is a horrible, HORRIBLE time for a history lesson. We know the catalyst has tried other solutions, we know the reapers isn't its ONLY solution only that its the most successful. Any solution we can think of "oh have you tried so-and-so" we should assume its tried. Its billions of years old and has been doing this far longer then us. I find it naive that any organic, other than perhaps Leviathans, could claim to have a better idea that the starbrat hasn't already tried and found it to be lacking.

 

We do talk about its past experiences in dealing with synthetics in the ending, its just vague about it. Which makes sense, given the situation. Again, this is the worse possible time to be having a history lesson. Hence the Leviathan dlc. Which didn't have as much depth as it should have, imo, but it at least does provide more substance towards the endings.

 

As for the solutions I understand that the Catalyst has some different perspective on preservation (although I do wonder how it got such a view when programmed by the Leviathans or why it would store everything in the relatively fragile body of a Reaper). It's the other stuff:

 

 

Lol, relative to what exactly? Relative to space ships? They're a hell of lot more durable then any organic body we could have. Not to mention ageless and essentially immortal. Though those two are perks the Leviathans share as well, which are arguably the apex of all organic life.

 

 


 

Like why does it offer up Destroy and Control when Synthesis is available? For Destroy it explicitly states that it isn't a solution to the O vs S conflict, it only offers it because the Crucible can enact it. Control is similar as what Shepalyst will do is an unknown. Why doesn't it explore non-Crucible options like just leaving, that's seemingly more sensible than Destroy from the Catalyst's perspective. Why can't Shepard just tell the Catalyst to order a universal self destruct sequence or fly into the sun? It's just as valid as Destroy only with less collateral damage which if anything makes it better for everyone. The only way anything the Catalyst does makes sense is if by 'change the variables' the Crucible rewrote part of the Catalyst's code in such a way that it had to use the Crucible and only the Crucible (which doesn't make much sense either).

 

 

 

Good questions. Though, honestly, imo, you should back this questions up a few steps. Instead of asking why it offers such and such instead of synthesis why not ask why it offers anything at all. The catalyst is the one that activated the elevator that took Shepard up there. It is the one who woke him up. It is the one that presented the choices. Why do any of that, period? Why not just leave him down there beside Anderson, passed out and bleeding out?

 

These are just further examples, imo, of why the catalyst is such a flawed execution. These things you mention are REAL criticism that should be used against the ending - not the kind of crap people make up and pretend are problems even though they're not (yo dawg). You can headcanon answers to these questions but none of this fixes the real problem which is the catalyst itself.

 

Frankly, I'm less bothered by these types of questions and more bothered by the fact that it even exists. If we remove the catalyst we wouldn't have these problems in the first place. Asking these questions to be resolved implies that if there were answers of these questions the catalyst would suddenly make sense in the lore. I don't believe it would. Its existence is a plothole to me. Adding to it won't fix that - the only thing that can fix it is if they rewrote it and changed it into something else.

 

 

 

Why is the Catalyst even letting Shepard choose anyway? The common defense I hear is that the organics proved something but that isn't the case. The Catalyst still believes that the O vs S conflict is alive and will still inevitably end the same way (the only reason Shepard is up there is because the Catalyst made some simple mistakes, next time just turn off the beam). The Reaper solution is still better than Control and Destroy, and still seems to work just as fine as it did before (species are preserved and organic life goes on). If the Catalyst didn't want the Crucible to be used it could have left Shepard down the elevator or if the elevator came up on it's own free will just not talk to him (I doubt Shepard would just start shooting tubes or get anywhere near surging energy). It really diminishes that the Catalyst experimented all these eons when it's just as susceptible to SpaceJesus's aura as everyone else is.

 

In hindsight, I should had read your entire post instead of replying to it in chunks. :lol:

 

Anyway, these are all, imo, very valid complaints and criticisms one could and indeed should have about the ending. THIS is the kind of stuff I like to see people complain about. I just hate it when people make up stuff to complain about or misrepresent the story. IMO, all the false or mislead criticism distracts from the real issues. This is why I take such offense to people using the "yo dawg" meme, just for example.

 

 

the reapers are all there is in their universe, being Apex and all... then, their own creation took that away, completely destroying that identity. Their motivation stopped from being apex to being at all.  The weird part imho is that they were only just surviving by seeing the need to control the very reality that surrounded their existence. That what started out just an ideal tool, ended up being a 'better' them. A new and improved Apex race of one (catalyst) who is the boss reaper. As we know that the leviathan are the pre-racial/missing link between the catalyst alone and the catalyst cloud linked to all the races within the reaper ships. The leviathan actually exist within that reality somewhere.

 

In any event the reapers "motives" started out simply to harvest beings like the catalyst did the leviathan, who ended up the first of such a race. After so many cycles the catalyst/head reaper "changed" with the times and the un imaginable "Mentality" of the cloud. The Geth have an uncanny/inorganic insight as well as the machine people, who are related to the first races in the MEU.

 

I think I have things to say about this... but I don't know. I don't really understand most of it. Any complaint or correction I make could just me misunderstanding what you're trying to say.

 

 

 

This has probably already been addressed in these pages but please humour me and help me out with something. The original Mass Effect tells us that the reapers return every 50k years or so to harvest all advanced organic life in the galaxy. I read into this that they were indiscriminate, harvesting all species with the same motives. Mass Effect 2 introduces us to reaper reproduction, for lack of a better term, that Shepard is the reason why humanity were chosen to be this cycle's new reaper. This is backed up by some of Harbinger's taunts such as: "Asari: reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.” and “Turian: you are considered...too primitive.”

 

So what happens to these species? They get "reaped", but is Harbinger saying they aren't worth preserving as a unique consciousness? Also, does this go beyond the primary purpose behind the reapers which is explained by the Catalyst? Why have they evolved this racial preference?

 

 

This is actually, I believe, explained in the codex.

 

* CAPITAL SHIPS are Sovereign-class Reapers two kilometers in length. They typically target the dreadnoughts, defense installations, and industrial cities of organic civilizations. Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species of organics during each cycle of extinction to create these massive ships. Some capital ships are capable of launching small drones equivalent to fighters.

 

* DESTROYERS are 160 meters long and, in astounding numbers, make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet. They engage cruisers and other, smaller ships, as well as communications posts and enemy command centers. Research suggests destroyers are created from those species that are not harvested to make capital ships.

 

Humanity is, obviously, the one deemed suitable for becoming the new Capital reaper. The other species will be turned into Destroyer class reapers. I believe this is what Harbinger's taunts were alluding too.

 

Btw, Vazgen, I'm surprised you didn't bring this up. Could it be I finally remembered something you didn't?! Mwuahaha. I still have some catching up to do, but its a start. Your move.


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#81
Rusted Cage

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<snip>
This is actually, I believe, explained in the codex.

 

* CAPITAL SHIPS are Sovereign-class Reapers two kilometers in length. They typically target the dreadnoughts, defense installations, and industrial cities of organic civilizations. Experts believe the Reapers harvest a single species of organics during each cycle of extinction to create these massive ships. Some capital ships are capable of launching small drones equivalent to fighters.

 

* DESTROYERS are 160 meters long and, in astounding numbers, make up the bulk of the Reaper fleet. They engage cruisers and other, smaller ships, as well as communications posts and enemy command centers. Research suggests destroyers are created from those species that are not harvested to make capital ships.

 

Humanity is, obviously, the one deemed suitable for becoming the new Capital reaper. The other species will be turned into Destroyer class reapers. I believe this is what Harbinger's taunts were alluding too.

 

Btw, Vazgen, I'm surprised you didn't bring this up. Could it be I finally remembered something you didn't?! Mwuahaha. I still have some catching up to do, but its a start. Your move.

 

This reveals an astonishing insight into reaper culture - they have "lesser species." I wonder at the selection process of the reapers, why humanity is considered more ideal than any other. Is it like a particular pattern of traits which, when preserved in reaper form help them achieve their primary objective?

 

 

These can be simple taunts, attempts to demoralize your squadmates. Or it can be that this racial preference was indeed present but after Shepard defeated Collectors with multi-racial crew they were all made a target. Or they are not "reaped" at all, and simply provide shock troops for Reapers while the primary target - humanity is harvested. Or it's another issue of ME2 introducing completely new plot elements and failing to develop them.

Thanks Vaz, my cynicism tends towards your last explanation from that list, Valmar's codex being a hasty and somewhat unsatisfying resolution of this plot element.



#82
Vazgen

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Btw, Vazgen, I'm surprised you didn't bring this up. Could it be I finally remembered something you didn't?! Mwuahaha. I still have some catching up to do, but its a start. Your move.

LOL, yeah, you got me :D *makes a note to replay through trilogy soon* 



#83
ImaginaryMatter

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Lol, relative to what exactly? Relative to space ships? They're a hell of lot more durable then any organic body we could have. Not to mention ageless and essentially immortal. Though those two are perks the Leviathans share as well, which are arguably the apex of all organic life.

 

It would seem much more intelligent to put them in a structure as strong as the Citadel and keep them safe in dark space. Just use regular ships with the same level of technology to do the Reaping. It's a terrible philosophy to field the very stuff you're trying to protect when there is no reason to. Given that the current cycle were able to down at least a few dozen ships using strategies like guerrilla tactics and smuggling nuclear bombs (strategies that don't require the advantages the current cycle had) -- plus, whatever damage races with the Prothean's level of technological advancement did -- it's hard to imagine this being a net gain sort of operation. I used the word relative because the Reaper shell itself isn't strong enough for protecting against the pedestrian threats they face every cycle.

 



To clarify, I don't mean the main theme of the series was synthetic vs organic... though the reapers are synthetic... and the entire plot revolves around us trying to stop them from ending us... hm.

 

Anyway, my point was that there are aspects of synthetic vs organic throughout the trilogy. There is MORE to it then just conflict, yes, but conflict itself is a reoccurring theme. Zombie movies have a theme of having zombies in them, with humans trying to survive against said zombies. There may be a deeper meaning where they're representative of something else and thats fine, but they're still zombie movies.

 

For example look at the Walking Dead game series. The majority of that game, the main theme, I would argue isn't actually about the zombies. Its about the group of people trying to survive together with zombies just being in the background. The games focus is more on the characters surviving then it is the actual zombies, imo. That probably has something to do with why I loved the series so much even though I'm not really a fan of zombies. 

 

However, no matter how prevalent other themes or nuances are present in the series you can't deny that zombies are a theme, regardless of what else they may or may not represent on a metaphorical level. Synthetic vs organic in Mass Effect has been a theme present in each title. You can go through the entire trilogy and find instances where this is the case. The main story of the first game revolves almost entirely around this conflict as the main enemy force is the geth.

 

You can argue that collaboration and peace is a theme as well because you have all these races coming together putting aside their differences to work together, even the geth later on. However that doesn't change the fact that the conflict is present in all of them. I'm not saying this is the only theme but it IS a theme. Hence why I don't think its fair for people to act like it is something only brought up in the ending - because it isn't.

 

As for Rannoch resolving the issue, I say nay. Billions of years of observing organics has concluded that there exists a pattern of conflict. Shepard potentially brokering a peace with the quarians and the geth (which up until the ending has only lasted what, weeks?). In the Mass Effect universe, which is fictional mind you, this pattern exists. It exists because beings that have existed and observed the cycles of billions of years have observed it to be so. This billion+ year old perspective is not made invalid just because the geth are playing nice for an astonishing few weeks.

 

I will say that synthetic vs organic being a reoccurring pattern in the galaxy is something only ME3 brought up (though not at the end) but regardless the synthetic vs organic bit itself, even if only in our cycle, has been present in the trilogy since day one.

 

We seem to have different definitions. For theme I guess I'm going with the... TV Trope's one. They're fighting Synthetic's but the conflict doesn't really stem from them being AI. You can substitute in another alien race and the conflict remains largely the same, because almost everything with the Geth and the others is more about overcoming bigotry. There's no meat. There's no reoccuring ideas about how we can react to real AI. At the end of the day the ME Synthetics are just people with metal skins, a slightly different take on the issues we run into with the Krogan and Rachni.

 

Rannoch is important because any reoccuring, deeper subtext the series had to say about AI was bound to the Geth/Quarian conflict. Logically, yes, peace on Rannoch is just a single data point among a billions years worth, etc etc, but the important thing is that Mass Effect isn't real life, it's a story. A story in which the player spends a lot of time and interaction with. How Rannoch ends is entirely important to any ending that deals with Synthetics. In real life Rannoch wouldn't undercut the Catalyst's argument, but in a story it does; that is why I suspect the writer's didn't include it because they knew how conflicting the parts were. That's why I say logically I don't have a problem with the Reaper's origins, I just have a problem with how the story was told.



#84
Valmar

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It would seem much more intelligent to put them in a structure as strong as the Citadel and keep them safe in dark space.

 

Speculation but its possible they actually are. The catalyst claims to be the collective knowledge of all reapers. I believe it was Vazgen here on the forums that I had a rather interesting discussion about this particular subject with a while back. If I recall correctly the idea was that the reaper shells are not ultimately relevant to preservation, as they can all be 'backed up' to citadel, to the catalyst, which embodies all reapers. This explains why the reapers, with all their talk of preservation, do not seem to bat a metaphorical eyelash to losing ships (which translate to billions of organics) or have any care about the dead reapers floating around in the galaxy like the ones in the second game.

 

I'm don't necessarily believe it but it was still interesting nevertheless. Sorry, going off topic. Anywho, yes, this is a strange logic fallacy in the game. Though this is more a flaw with Mass Effect 3, in general, then it is with the ending or the starbrat specifically. The reapers have been 'harvesting' us long before the starbrat said so. You could have it so the reaper motives are never revealed to us and this still wouldn't change that. Though the importance the ending puts on this motive does add more severity to the oversight, imo.

 

 

 

We seem to have different definitions. For theme I guess I'm going with the... TV Trope's one. They're fighting Synthetic's but the conflict doesn't really stem from them being AI. You can substitute in another alien race and the conflict remains largely the same, because almost everything with the Geth and the others is more about overcoming bigotry. There's no meat. There's no reoccuring ideas about how we can react to real AI. At the end of the day the ME Synthetics are just people with metal skins, a slightly different take on the issues we run into with the Krogan and Rachni.

 

Yes, we do seem to have different interpretations on what classifies as a 'theme'. Though, imo, the concept of a central theme does not contradict or rule out my notion of general or minor themes. My use of the term 'theme' could, in some instances, be substituted with 'element' I suppose. Though I don't necessarily believe that is the case here. The argument here is that because the reason we fight them isn't just because they're AI then the fact that they're synthetic is irrelevant. I don't agree with that.

 

In a zombie game you're not necessarily killing zombies just because they're zombies. You're doing it to survive, because they're a threat - the zombies could be any enemy but just happens to be zombies. Would you then not consider it a zombie game, with zombies being a theme of said game? If I searched for a game that had you fighting zombies, would it not be recommended?

 

Yes, you could substitute the synthetics with with an alien race and have the conflict be largely the same. That doesn't change the fact that the conflict you have now, however, was against synthetics. The reapers themselves are partly synthetic which we go the entire series looking for a way to defeat. The reapers form the backbone of the entire series, they're the ones the entire story relies upon and the entire premise revolves around us organics fighting them. I hate to credit the reapers for this, as they're a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy in this regard, but still. Synthetic vs Organic themes are present throughout the trilogy.

 

The reason for the conflict doesn't seem relevant to me in these terms. It is still organics fighting against synthetics, the motivation and cause of the conflict is irrelevant, imo. If I wanted to play a game that lets me shoot robots, Mass Effect would give me that since Geth are the main enemy force in the main story. Though Binary Domain would be better for this theme but whatever, thats not the point. I don't argue that synthetics fighting against organics is the main theme and focus of the series, only that we can see elements of this theme in each and every title. This was all to refute the claim that is only at the end of the game does synthetic vs organic come into the story.

 

That doesn't mean I think they had to go with that theme or that it was the best one to go with. I only mean to say that it is, in the very least, a theme that has been persistent throughout the trilogy and not something they came up with at the last moment. Main story missions, side missions, codex history, news reports, dlc and even the novels have all had traces of this theme. It has far more substance then even the dark energy ending, which only had a few foreshadowing elements present in the second game. At least synthetic vs organic is a theme you can find throughout the series.

 

Coincidentally the TVTropes website you linked to even seems to acknowledge this theme:

 

"Mass Effect:

  • Centrally, the story of all three games seems to have a great deal to do with the emergence of AI and the way the inevitable conflict with organics will be played out or resolved. "

 

 

 

Rannoch is important because any reoccuring, deeper subtext the series had to say about AI was bound to the Geth/Quarian conflict. Logically, yes, peace on Rannoch is just a single data point among a billions years worth, etc etc, but the important thing is that Mass Effect isn't real life, it's a story. A story in which the player spends a lot of time and interaction with. How Rannoch ends is entirely important to any ending that deals with Synthetics. In real life Rannoch wouldn't undercut the Catalyst's argument, but in a story it does; that is why I suspect the writer's didn't include it because they knew how conflicting the parts were. That's why I say logically I don't have a problem with the Reaper's origins, I just have a problem with how the story was told.

 

I don't personally agree with your reasoning, but I respect and understand it, in a way.  I also still stand by my earlier assessment that, imo, that flaw is more on how Shepard's attitude is that of confusion. You'll have to forgive me if I'm repeating myself I don't really recall the topic I was in when I said this originally (might have been this one, even) but a lot of the confusion with the ending and the reapers in general, imo, is the fault of how they handled Shepard. Shepard is a very dense character and it is easy for a player who paid attention to the story and read the lore (codex) to be way ahead of him. Shepard, however, up to the very end acts completely clueless.

 

By time the ending hit everyone who read the codex and followed the story should realize that the reapers are harvesting us. That reapers are not just machines out for our destruction but infact a reaper is a billion organics. We've learned most about this long before Mass Effect 3. Both as a player and as Shepard directly since the story tells us about this stuff a few times in many conversations. Yet Shepard is like a damn wall, he constantly acts surprised and confused at things he should already know, as if the past revelations didn't stick with him. Its like he doesn't remember anything he's been told or learned and refuses to budge away from the simplistic notion that reapers are just machines out to kill us.

 

"An old soldier, stuck in his ways, only able to see the world down the barrel of a gun."

 

When the protagonist is constantly confused and misinformed is it really any surprise that many players were also just as confused? Not everyone follows the story that closely, not everyone reads the codex or has that much interest in the lore. Having Shepard behave like none of that stuff happened and have no idea whats going on only enables the player to feel justified in their own confusion, imo.



#85
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These can be simple taunts, attempts to demoralize your squadmates. Or it can be that this racial preference was indeed present but after Shepard defeated Collectors with multi-racial crew they were all made a target. Or they are not "reaped" at all, and simply provide shock troops for Reapers while the primary target - humanity is harvested. Or it's another issue of ME2 introducing completely new plot elements and failing to develop them.

Could they be related to the following quote in this Drew Karpyshyn interview?

 

"Then we thought, well, let's take it to the next level, maybe the Reapers are looking at a way to stop this. Maybe there's an inevitable descent into the opposite of the big bang, like the big crunch, the end of the universe, and they realize that the only way to stop it is through using biotics, and since they can't do it, that's sort of why they keep rebuilding society. They're trying to find the perfect group to use biotics," he continued. "The Asari were close but they weren't quite right, the Proteans maybe were close, and they kept trying again and again, where all of it's sort of a giant experiment, as they're trying to find the right mix of mental fortitude and biotic ability and whatever else in the genetic code that allows a particular species to use biotics to stop the end of the universe, or maybe ascend into Reaperhood and still keep this biotic power."

 



#86
Vazgen

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Could they be related to the following quote in this Drew Karpyshyn interview?

It is possible, yes.

I believe Mass Effect 2 (and ME3 as a result) suffered for having two lead writers. It couldn't develop one central theme, on one side there was Cerberus as a huge organizations with income of billions and on another side - dark energy, human Reaper, Harbinger taunts etc. What is clear to me is that no one knew what to do with Reapers after Mass Effect 1. Their portrayal as practically immortal sentient machines that wipe out advanced civilizations every 50000 years leaves little room for variety and different approaches.


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#87
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It is possible, yes.

I believe Mass Effect 2 (and ME3 as a result) suffered for having two lead writers. It couldn't develop one central theme, on one side there was Cerberus as a huge organizations with income of billions and on another side - dark energy, human Reaper, Harbinger taunts etc. What is clear to me is that no one knew what to do with Reapers after Mass Effect 1. Their portrayal as practically immortal sentient machines that wipe out advanced civilizations every 50000 years leaves little room for variety and different approaches.

I actually liked the portrayal of Cerberus in ME 2.  Even though they went from a "Alliance black ops unit gone rogue" to the huge organisation headed by the ever-charismatic Illusive Man, sometimes, it seems, the rule of cool works.

But yeah, the whole Collector plot of ME 2 does little to further the overall story apart from revealing the fate of the Protheans. It all feels like a bit of a stalling tactic while the writers figure out what to do with the reapers, because, as you say, they didn't seem to know what to do with them. Interestingly, it has turned out that the idea that unwanted species unworthy of becoming Capital Reapers are instead Reaper Destroyers could reveal an actual culture within the reaper hierarchy.


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#88
ImaginaryMatter

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It is possible, yes.

I believe Mass Effect 2 (and ME3 as a result) suffered for having two lead writers. It couldn't develop one central theme, on one side there was Cerberus as a huge organizations with income of billions and on another side - dark energy, human Reaper, Harbinger taunts etc. What is clear to me is that no one knew what to do with Reapers after Mass Effect 1. Their portrayal as practically immortal sentient machines that wipe out advanced civilizations every 50000 years leaves little room for variety and different approaches.

 

I think Mass Effect 2 actually had the most coherent theme out of all 3 games. The game was about the squadmates, it's not a particularly meaningful, but everything in that game from the story, to the game's mechanics, and the conclusion with the Suicide Mission all revolved around them and built off each other. Despite having what is probably the weakest and most poorly justified story of all 3 games -- well, at least as far as the central plot is concerned -- I think that is ultimately what makes it the best received, as far as anyone can tell.

 

The other two games had story and gameplay themes that often undercut each other. That's why while ME1 or ME3 may be more unified as far as just the story is concerned, that dissonance often makes them weaker when taking the games as a whole.



#89
Vazgen

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I think Mass Effect 2 actually had the most coherent theme out of all 3 games. The game was about the squadmates, it's not a particularly meaningful, but everything in that game from the story, to the game's mechanics, and the conclusion with the Suicide Mission all revolved around them and built off each other. Despite having what is probably the weakest and most poorly justified story of all 3 games -- well, at least as far as the central plot is concerned -- I think that is ultimately what makes it the best received, as far as anyone can tell.

 

The other two games had story and gameplay themes that often undercut each other. That's why while ME1 or ME3 may be more unified as far as just the story is concerned, that dissonance often makes them weaker when taking the games as a whole.

I guess it comes down to the definition of "theme". I agree, the game focused on squadmates and that aspect of the game was a very well done. You got invested in a very large crew of completely new characters (Tali and Garrus are changed so much they can be considered new) and cared about saving them in Suicide Mission. That was a success indeed. What I mentioned is that there is almost nothing else there.

The villains, especially with Shepard constantly talking about Reapers, feel weak. The only reason they ever have an upper hand is because TIM feeds them information, so to speak. Horizon, Collector Ship - all due to info leaked by TIM. Reaper IFF is pretty much the only place where they sort of succeed but they fail to send some fast-moving troopers on board and catch a crippled pilot with brittle bones. Then there is Omega 4 Relay with one base and one ship -_-

And the world has some new stuff going on that no one understands. Dark energy is everywhere yet there is nothing done regarding it. Shepard gets brought back from the dead and everyone just accepts that, including Shepard himself. There is so much wasted potential there... 


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#90
KrrKs

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The Reapers probably have no idea what they're saying, like a Furby -- a giant, sinister looking Furby programmed by the Catalyst to say... whatever.

This is great! :D

 

@Rusted Cage's post from the 27th, about "lesser species".

I believe this is just the (or one) logical/easy step forward from the whole 'Hew-mons are special', 'diverse DNA', Collectors targeting exclusively Humans, thing that ME2 started spreading.



#91
Aisabel

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Well, from what I took from the ending this is what I got:

 

The reapers (no idea if they were synthetic or organic before they were reapers) were a race that was pretty superior and advanced. From the sounds of it, they either had a master or a "ruler" of some sorts that either coded them or indoctrinated them or dug it into their heads that synthetic and organic life can never coexist. It sounded like the reapers were originally some weird species (we'll never really know about) that gave up their form and became the reapers as we know them. 

 

Their leader or their code or ideas/beliefs basically explained to them that synthetic and organic life is in a never ending circle. The creators make creations and the creations become more powerful than the creators and thus an all out war and the inability to coexist occurs. The harvesting is a way to push the organics and synthetics back to a safe distance in which they're not technologically advanced and thus won't destroy everything and cause chaos for quite some time. They leave their technology behind in hopes of helping these species along- as a sort of separation to try to filter out the species that will become a problem.  

 

I have no idea if they reap the milky way or the whole galaxy- couldn't tell. But, they mention that they reap the species that have advanced to a sort of tipping point (before they hit pure chaos) and leave the "babies"- the species that haven't done much of anything to cause chaos in the galaxy. The Catalyst mentions that in the last cycle (the Prothean cycle) that they skimmed over humans, allowing them to live because they hadn't advanced yet. 

 

So, taking what I've just said I learned and applying it to what happened in Mass Effect, I would say that the Reapers' motivations was sort of like that of Mother Nature in that things are killed off and evolve to better the world and prevent total chaos. Think of the Dinosaurs and the Ice Age and how creatures grew to evolve and the world changed and then- BOOM!- it was destroyed and the world slowly went back to normal and more creatures and species evolved and then- BOOM!- it was destroyed again and now we're at where we are. 

 

Take them being like mother nature and, in some ways, while they're misguided, I kind of think their motivations were both selfish (in a sort of entertainment way like how kids capture ants for an ant farm or collectors collect things) and in a slightly selfless way (in that they're trying to prevent the galaxy from being destroyed) .

Perhaps the galaxy cycle is simply entertainment or experimentation for the reapers. Or, perhaps, in a way, the reapers have their consciousness (like what was explained would happen to Shepard if they took control of the reapers) and, because the reapers are not only the members of the first advanced species, but, also creatures from all the harvestings, and are therefore trying to save the world using their memories or how they felt the world could be saved. 

 

Then there is the whole option that all the reapers are indoctrinated by their higher master and thus have no choice for their actions. 



#92
Valmar

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Well, from what I took from the ending this is what I got:

 

The reapers (no idea if they were synthetic or organic before they were reapers) were a race that was pretty superior and advanced. From the sounds of it, they either had a master or a "ruler" of some sorts that either coded them or indoctrinated them or dug it into their heads that synthetic and organic life can never coexist. It sounded like the reapers were originally some weird species (we'll never really know about) that gave up their form and became the reapers as we know them. 

 

Their leader or their code or ideas/beliefs basically explained to them that synthetic and organic life is in a never ending circle. The creators make creations and the creations become more powerful than the creators and thus an all out war and the inability to coexist occurs. The harvesting is a way to push the organics and synthetics back to a safe distance in which they're not technologically advanced and thus won't destroy everything and cause chaos for quite some time. They leave their technology behind in hopes of helping these species along- as a sort of separation to try to filter out the species that will become a problem.  

 

I have no idea if they reap the milky way or the whole galaxy- couldn't tell. But, they mention that they reap the species that have advanced to a sort of tipping point (before they hit pure chaos) and leave the "babies"- the species that haven't done much of anything to cause chaos in the galaxy. The Catalyst mentions that in the last cycle (the Prothean cycle) that they skimmed over humans, allowing them to live because they hadn't advanced yet. 

 

So, taking what I've just said I learned and applying it to what happened in Mass Effect, I would say that the Reapers' motivations was sort of like that of Mother Nature in that things are killed off and evolve to better the world and prevent total chaos. Think of the Dinosaurs and the Ice Age and how creatures grew to evolve and the world changed and then- BOOM!- it was destroyed and the world slowly went back to normal and more creatures and species evolved and then- BOOM!- it was destroyed again and now we're at where we are. 

 

Take them being like mother nature and, in some ways, while they're misguided, I kind of think their motivations were both selfish (in a sort of entertainment way like how kids capture ants for an ant farm or collectors collect things) and in a slightly selfless way (in that they're trying to prevent the galaxy from being destroyed) .

Perhaps the galaxy cycle is simply entertainment or experimentation for the reapers. Or, perhaps, in a way, the reapers have their consciousness (like what was explained would happen to Shepard if they took control of the reapers) and, because the reapers are not only the members of the first advanced species, but, also creatures from all the harvestings, and are therefore trying to save the world using their memories or how they felt the world could be saved. 

 

Then there is the whole option that all the reapers are indoctrinated by their higher master and thus have no choice for their actions. 

 

You haven't played the Leviathan DLC have you?


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#93
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Not very many people have played  Leviathan compared to those who played ME3 and Citadel DLC.


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#94
General TSAR

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For the lulz, same as the archdemon. 



#95
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You haven't played the Leviathan DLC have you?

 

Can't afford it and won't pay the same price I paid for the 3 games.



#96
Valmar

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Yeah, their pricing on DLC is pretty crazy. I don't think I've ever seen it discounted. Anyway may I suggest you watch a letsplay on youtube of Leviathan DLC? Many of the things you brought up were actually answered in the Leviathan DLC. The origin of the reapers, basically. Right down to who built them and why. It's pretty interesting stuff. In the very least consider youtubing 'Mass Effect 3 Leviathan conversation'. It covers the most significant bits. Essentially, the reaper's motivations are explained to us.



#97
sH0tgUn jUliA

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Leviathan. Make some popcorn and watch this.... There's no commentary. Just like watching a TV show.

 



#98
Rusted Cage

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Yeah, their pricing on DLC is pretty crazy. I don't think I've ever seen it discounted. Anyway may I suggest you watch a letsplay on youtube of Leviathan DLC? Many of the things you brought up were actually answered in the Leviathan DLC. The origin of the reapers, basically. Right down to who built them and why. It's pretty interesting stuff. In the very least consider youtubing 'Mass Effect 3 Leviathan conversation'. It covers the most significant bits. Essentially, the reaper's motivations are explained to us.

I really like what Leviathan brings to the universe. Concepts such as deep time have always been present in Mass Effect but Leviathan's and Catalyst's explanations on the pattern can make your head spin when you really consider them. The unanswered but subtle implications as to what make this cycle unique, what makes Shepard special are good points to think about

 

 

@Rusted Cage's post from the 27th, about "lesser species".

I believe this is just the (or one) logical/easy step forward from the whole 'Hew-mons are special', 'diverse DNA', Collectors targeting exclusively Humans, thing that ME2 started spreading.

I agree. However, I can't help considering the implications of what this all means. Besides the primary purpose of finding a solution to the endless cycle of conflict, what motive do the Reapers have for selecting what they consider the "best" species? What are they looking for? Is this their version of evolution, an accident, something unforeseen in their design; or this this part of their attempt at finding the solution?



#99
Linkenski

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I hate what Leviathan brings to the universe. It makes the universe seem smaller. In the past we were led to believe Reapers were these beings that were above just being part of the known galaxy but Leviathan reduces them to a race that hasn't even gone extinct within the current organics' timeline. So all this time when the Reapers were a big mystery their creators were always just swimming deep into the ocean of Dis? Give me a break. This may make more sense but it's every bit as hamfisted as the ending twist of ME3.

 

A good mystery is not necessarily destroyed by resolving it, but both the ending and leviathan are just two ways of completely ruining the mystery of the reapers and it makes them seem completely unominous.


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#100
KrrKs

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I can't help considering the implications of what this all means. Besides the primary purpose of finding a solution to the endless cycle of conflict, what motive do the Reapers have for selecting what they consider the "best" species? What are they looking for? Is this their version of evolution, an accident, something unforeseen in their design; or this this part of their attempt at finding the solution?

I'm not even sure if finding a permanent solution is really in the reapers interest (unspecified headcanon). Speeding up organic spreading throughout the galaxy via mass relays can imo only serve 2 purposes.:

  • more people to harvest and create more troops and Reapers with it (aka reproduction)
  • hinder incentives to research/build own (better) FTL drives and connected technologies. This goes with the assumption that these technologies would/could somehow harm or hinder the Reapers actions.

 

Personally, I don't believe the codex, that only one species per cycle is chosen to become a single capital ship. Considering the known destruction of at least 2 capital- Reapers in previous cycles and several ones in this, their numbers would likely decrease as time goes by.

This is something that i can't imagine the reapers would allow -especially if there is any kind of truth behind their 'preserving' doctrine.

So, I guess they either build several Capital Reapers from a single species, or (better fitting with the 'preserving' scheme,) also ones from other species

  -or a combination of these two.

 

About what they are looking for: I believe that the best fitting solution to explain their actions is still a simple 'need' for reproduction.

Maybe/likely that the Catalyst's original intend was something different, but who says that a semi organic AI species always has to behave exactly as its gone rogue AI creator expected!? (Fitting perfectly with 'the created will always rebel against their creator')

 

The endings seems to suggest that the Catalyst has some sort of control over them (or that Shepard helped regain that control), but I don't think that this is total, or that the catalyst is some analogy to a 'Reaper-consensus'.

 

BTW, happy new year, everyone!