46 réponses à ce sujet

[Kinsz]

I'm sorry I didn't intend to brag, in fact my warden accepted Flemeth's deal and lied to Morrigan. My point is her flashy introduction doesn't have the desired effect because I remember her ass can be kicked. It's sort of like seeing your high school crush taking a ****** between two cars, you know? The aura of mystery and awe doesn't quite hold up afterwards.

 

Aha no need for apologies im just messing with you LOL at that analogy though

She almost seemed to imply that they wanted to be possessed, I would love to know why haha.

 

 

My guess is that they wanted to be part of something that is greater than themselves.

[myahele]

We have to keep in mind that Mythal was murdered and her wisp (a remnantremnant of a killed spirit but not quite the same) contacted Flemeth. Flemythal is strong, but no longer godlike strong. In other words she is a shadow lingering in the sun

As for her other daughters willingly wanting to be possessed, who knows? With the recent revelations it seems like Flemythal will slowly merge with the new host; granting them vast knowledge.

[Jarcander]

Does anyone else believe Merril knew on some level what Flemeth was when they initially met? She seemed quite taken by her, indeed, as if she was an elven god even though she appeared as an old woman. If this was planned, I would be excited for what is to come in the next game.

 

Also, where is the bald mage avatar I used to have on this forum? Hmm, this will not do.

[Adanu]

I've never believe for a minute Morrigan gave me the whole truth during origins. My main world Warden accepted Morrigans help, but when it came to killing flemeth based on her word or her interpretation of a book I hadn't read... I told her to get lost. I wanted nothing to do with being a pawn between two liars.

 

I don't regret it.

 

The only warden who killed flemeth is my city elf who romanced her.

[Casuist]

O they are retconing her? what exactly has been retconed?

 

It seems some posters willfully "retcon" their own attitudes and memories whenever they wish to misappropriate the term. It's been misused so often it might as well mean "thing I don't understand." 

[- Archangel -]

This sentence right here sums up the thread. There was no retcon. That it didn't go the direction you thought does not mean the writers retconned anything, it means you were wrong.

 

No, it doesn't.

[DanAxe]

If there is anything i dont think Bioware would be retconning at all is Flemeth.

 

Ever since you meet her for the first time in the Wilds she is obviously written in a way thats supposed to be a mistery that will go on for a very long time.

 

Even if you dont kill her on morrigans quest (meaning you wouldnt see she can turn into a dragon) she saves the Warden and Alistair by turning into a winged beast and snatching em out of the top of the tower before the darkspawn could kill them (words of Morrigan just a you wake up after Ostagar).

 

Every little thing about her is consistent since the beggining. You could argue about the appearance change from DA O to the beggining of DA2, because supposedly she meets Hawke not very long after she first met the Warden (I would say there is no more than 1month - depending on how fast the darkspawn destroyed Lothering completely). And then she meets the warden again for morrigan's quest still in her old looks (and this is obviously after lothering and after helping Hawke). Thats the only thing that doesnt add up in terms of consistency, and could be easily explained because of graphics and stuff (2 different games, couldnt make her exactly the same in both) but i think even that has some other meaning. In DA2 they knew about the timeline and that changing her so drastically (whole new body) would look like an inconsistency, so why not just make her look a little more like the Flemeth in Origins? But i think there is a piece of the story there that we dont know about. She was always written in cryptic and secretive terms so they could make sure that throught all the years of story development (games, books, comics, movies, etc) they would still be able to tell her story in the same terms for everyone no matter what World State you have.

 

I dont think we have seen the last of Flemeth, and I'd bet that whatever way this series ends, she will be right there at the middle, proving us there's so much more in there than we dont know about yet.

 

Spoiler

Her being Mythal is already a bomb of information about her. Its like, ok she's actually an elven god, that's why all the mystery. And FRAK, she's a goddess??

 

And yet, there's still a lot about her that hasnt been answered. We know who she is now sure, but thats not even the most intriguing part about her. Her goal, her objectives, her masterplan, thats the most interesting stuff about her and we still know jack about it. My guess is she's going to be around all the way to the end, mind-blowing us at every turn, and that was the plan from the moment they started developing Flemeth for Origins.

 

So to resume my answer to you: No. If there's anything being retconned in Inquisition, it is most definetly not Flemeth.

[Almostfaceman]

AKA Flemeth?

 

I know the new direction her story has taken on a very technical level doesn't contradict what was previously stated, but I can't be the only one who thinks they are retconning her pretty hard these days.

 

 

I'm not complaining, just an observation.  I like the direction they are taking the character.

 

Please enlighten us HOW they are retconning her, all you say is you think they are. Not why. 

 

And yes, the proverbial "I can't be the only one" is always true. So much so it is a bit silly to say. There are billions of people, some are always going to agree with you, no matter what the opinion. 

[Taleroth]

She almost seemed to imply that they wanted to be possessed, I would love to know why haha.

Same reason Morrigan wanted to drink from the Well, I imagine.

In fact, I imagine that is the "possession" they're talking about. And not a true possession, as that would never really require consent, Uldred proved that.

[Sphynxian]

Not to mention Mythal's symbol—a leafless tree—is on the cover of Flemeth's grimoire in DA:O.

[Hydwn]

As others have pointed out in this and other threads, it's been heavily hinted at since DA2.  We're all just mad on the BSN because we missed the anvil-sized hints

 

(I thought she was a risen Archdemon.  I feel silly in retrospect at not noticing how connected she was to the elves, and asking Merrill if she knew who she was, and how Fenris said she wasn't an abomination, and how Merrill gives a description of Mythal that first Flemeth in Act 3.)

 

The question is then, was she planned to be Mythal in Origins...?

 

It's fuzzier, but I think so.  There was that odd Elven symbol of the leafless tree on her grimoire, and Morrigan in Witch Hunt thinks that she has some plot involving Eluvians.  An Elven Warden can mention that keepers know the shapechanging arts that Flemeth taught to Morrigan.

 

Moreover, there's a whole complex symbolism underlying Morrigan and Flemeth.  Without going too deeply into Frazier's Golden Bough and Margaret Murray and Joseph Campbell and Mists of Avalon, there's meant to be a whole symbolism of a the possible Pagan substrata of the Arthurian myths - the theory that Morgan le Fay is the Celtic goddess Morrigan, and that Mordred is a kind of Christianized afterimage of a theoretical Pagan original in which a dying-and-reviving god-hero begets a god-child with a Pagan mother goddess.

 

That supposed mother-goddess is often conceived as a witch-goddess, a maiden-mother-crone connected to the moon and motherhood.  And that level of symbolism was already there in Origins (the Dark Ritual turns on precisely that point).  Being Mythal just makes the Flemeth/Morrigan as mother-moon goddesses explicit rather than just symbol, so it looks intentional.

[Lilunebrium]

Flemeth is very, very good about keep secrets she wishes to keep - and feeding lies she wishes to sow.

 

Have we actually ever seen Flemeth telling a lie? Because as far as I know, she's always told the truth, even if cryptic.

[azarhal]

Have we actually ever seen Flemeth telling a lie? Because as far as I know, she's always told the truth, even if cryptic.

 

She might have done a few lies of omissions, but then she also warns people a few times in the games (and novel) and nothing actually requires her to tell everything to everyone either.

[Gill Kaiser]

I'm thinking that in DA:O the writers didn't know that she would be Mythal, but they probably did by the time DA2 rolled around.

[Shahadem]

Plot twists do not equate to retcons

 

It does when the plot twist requires a retcon.

 

That's something that Shymalan has yet to understand.

[Tsunami Chef]

I've never believe for a minute Morrigan gave me the whole truth during origins. My main world Warden accepted Morrigans help, but when it came to killing flemeth based on her word or her interpretation of a book I hadn't read... I told her to get lost. I wanted nothing to do with being a pawn between two liars.

 

I don't regret it.

 

The only warden who killed flemeth is my city elf who romanced her.

Exactly...Morrigan was my favorite character in DA:O, and arguably the series, but to me at least, it was obvious she had more than just that motivation to kill Flemeth. Even if you romance her I don't think you can trust a thing Morrigan says for a second in DA:O. She seems more forthcoming in DA:I, but that could also just be a show.

[Hydwn]

It does when the plot twist requires a retcon.

 

That's something that Shymalan has yet to understand.

 

What's the retcon, though...?  This doesn't actually contradict anything in either Origins or DA2.  DA2 has a dozen clues to her identity, in retrospect.  In her one novel appearance, in The Stolen Throne, she's already buddy-buddy with the Dalish elves of the Korcari Wilds.  

 

Stolen Throne was released six months before Origins, so they'd already worked out a connection between her and the Dalish, who were already calling her Woman of Many Years.  Her magic is also very nature-y in that book, what with attacking trees.

 

As for her origin in Origins, you can get the traditional story from Leliana in camp...and then walk ten feet over to Morrigan who will tell you that Leliana's version is at least partly wrong, and may be completely wrong.  Flemeth never once tells you anything about herself in Origins, besides reluctantly admitting she has magic (she never even quite says she's a mage).

 

I saw this with the Harry Potter fandom at the height of its popularity.  Fanfic and internet fandoms are the best and worst thing that ever happened to writers.  They can make a series incredibly popular...but eventually the fans confuse the fanfic and the theories with what's actually in the work, and feel betrayed when the author takes it in some perfectly logical but unexpected direction they'd planned all along.  

 

Soon, the fans are making death threats over some imagined betrayal (as J.K. Rowling got repeatedly).

 

Unless someone can find one single thing from Origins or the books that contradicts the Flemythal thing.  Not Leliana's rumours and legends turned into bard stories, but something solid.  Is there anything at all...?

[eternalshiva]

DA2 they recognize Flemmeth as Mythal right off the bat, it wasn't a secret, we just chose to ignore it because "Oh, it's just Flemmeth being a sneaky witch thief" BW played on our own disbelief and only through Morrigan drinking the well does it confirm to us that she IS Mythal (Or Solas, in the Epilogue). Well played.

[Rifneno]

So, Flemeth's Grimiore in DA:O had the symbol of Mythal on it, and the amulet recreated her on an altar to Mythal in DA2.

 

Yeah, no, you're right, this is totally retcon territory.

[joejoe099]

she honestly feels like the most intended and non-retconed of all the characters. It's almost astounding how they've managed that considering all the variants and everything.

[ReadingRambo220]

I agree with the majority here, Flemeth has been planned out from the start. There are some lines in DAO and latter DA2 that are quite intriguing in retrospect.