238 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

Here's my take on this:

 

(1) Neither form of existence is intrinsically better or worse than the other

(2) Cole does not express any preference, except that he wants to continue helping people.

(3) There are both advantages and disadvantages in either form with regard to what Cole wants to do.

 

So really, this is not a choice where I can develop a strong preference. I disagree with Solas that someone's nature shouldn't or can't be changed but I don't really know what Cole wants in that regard. A human's ability to learn and change is a good thing but I don't know how a spirit of compassion knows how to help people, so I can't say if it's better or worse from any particular viewpoint.

 

I made him more human once, because it's the direction he has already taken in pursuit of helping people. I made him retain his nature as a spirit in another game, because I thought he'd have a different perspective on things and that would be valuable. 

[Ranadiel Marius]

However, there is a separate debate I find here. Which change makes him more likely to become a demon? This hard to answer. Solas implies spirits that become demons are spirits that come into contact with "bad" real-life things. However, does making Cole more human means he's more susceptible to this because he's coming close to real life? Or does making Cole more a spirit means he becomes more susceptible to become a demon because he's closer to a spirit now?

I don't think it is possible for him to become a demon if you make him more human. I mean this whole thing is theoretical since he is the only known spirit to become this human (although it is implied he is not the first in a Solas banter). But from what we know, spirits become demons when their purposes become twisted. Human Cole has a sense of self which knows and understands his purpose. This sense of self makes it impossible for others to drown out his purpose with their own (as explained by Human Cole at the banquet). So the only way for him to have his purpose corrupted is for him to do it to himself, but he has friends to help him work through anything and further his gained "complication" should help him to work through any Grey situations that may arise.

Spirit Cole would be just as prone to becoming a demon as any other spirit. The amulet should protect him from external bindings, but spirits view the world in blacks and whites when it is actually shades of grey. So I think the threat of internal corruption would be greater. I'd say there is a threat of the amulet being circumvented, but Cory couldn't and I doubt many mages equal his skill and power.

[Ieldra]

As for the possibility of becoming a demon - we set out to prevent a forced change and succeed, and I see no difference in that between the two paths. As to changing in the normal course of existing, consider Josephine's statement at the Winter Palace:

 

"You still face demons and horrors. These are just better dressed."

[MiyuEmi]

I think I'll continue to make him more of a spirit in all subsequent play thoughts because of what he says at the end of that, that his last friend found out who/what he was and changed and left him.  He states that you didn't change and didn't make him change.  I suppose as said above my worry that he might become a demon is likely unfounded as it would radically alter his character (a la Anders) to make him unable to function as a companion.  I love Cole's character and I wouldn't want that to happen.

 

As a spirit as well, he doesn't technically have a name, which is similar to Command's response to him in that he is considered 'Compassion' before he's considered 'Cole' by other spirits.

[SolNebula]

He can help people as a spirit so I made him one.

[BraveVesperia]

I really like both paths. They have their good sides and negatives, but he's still Cole either way. That's all that matters to me in the end.

 

I actually made two Inquisitors for my canon world state, so one will have human-Cole and the other will have spirit-Cole. That way I don't have to choose!

[ewauksonian]

I don't think it is possible for him to become a demon if you make him more human. I mean this whole thing is theoretical since he is the only known spirit to become this human (although it is implied he is not the first in a Solas banter). But from what we know, spirits become demons when their purposes become twisted. Human Cole has a sense of self which knows and understands his purpose. This sense of self makes it impossible for others to drown out his purpose with their own (as explained by Human Cole at the banquet). So the only way for him to have his purpose corrupted is for him to do it to himself, but he has friends to help him work through anything and further his gained "complication" should help him to work through any Grey situations that may arise.

Spirit Cole would be just as prone to becoming a demon as any other spirit. The amulet should protect him from external bindings, but spirits view the world in blacks and whites when it is actually shades of grey. So I think the threat of internal corruption would be greater. I'd say there is a threat of the amulet being circumvented, but Cory couldn't and I doubt many mages equal his skill and power.

You see, that would make sense, except Justice became Vengeance when he merged with Anders. Yes, fairly different circumstances, but in a sense, both became more human, if in a different way. This is why I'm not so sure it's a good idea. Not saying it's a bad one, but not sure if it's a good one either.

 

 

I really like both paths. They have their good sides and negatives, but he's still Cole either way. That's all that matters to me in the end.

 

I actually made two Inquisitors for my canon world state, so one will have human-Cole and the other will have spirit-Cole. That way I don't have to choose!

 

 

The Issue with me for making a spirit out of him is, he begins to lose himself as Cole, even willingly gives up parts of it. Essentially, he becomes more like a Spirit of Compassion and begins to change back to original form. 

[BraveVesperia]

The Issue with me for making a spirit out of him is, he begins to lose himself as Cole, even willingly gives up parts of it. Essentially, he becomes more like a Spirit of Compassion and begins to change back to original form. 

True, though if you make him more human, he loses some of his spirit nature. Either way, he loses one aspect and strengthens the other aspect. I think that's why it's so hard for me to choose. Human-Cole and spirit-Cole feel like two halves of a whole.

 

I was a little unnerved by his final Skyhold conversation, how he seemed to have lost some of his old personality. But he seems to have regained it a little in the party after the final battle. My main concern with spirit-Cole is that if he wipes his own memories, he might end up repeating himself with a new person-in-need. He wouldn't remember what happened with the original Cole, wouldn't have grown from it, and without someone like Rhys (or the Inquisitor) around, it could go badly for him.

[ReiKokoFuuu]

it was a hard decision at first, but i eventually went with spirit.  he seems happier and in turn, i'm happy for him, but at the same time i feel sad because in a way, he feels more distant because of his nature as a spirit.  so far, i've only made him a spirit, but i do plan to do at least one playthrough where i make him more human.

[Ranadiel Marius]

You see, that would make sense, except Justice became Vengeance when he merged with Anders. Yes, fairly different circumstances, but in a sense, both became more human, if in a different way. This is why I'm not so sure it's a good idea. Not saying it's a bad one, but not sure if it's a good one either.

Vengeance is only evidence that a spirit's black and white viewpoint doesn't work when applied to the Grey that makes up Thedas. Justice never became more human, he remained a spirit that thought the world must conform to his way just as the fade melded at his thoughts. He never gained an understanding of the complications implicit in reality. Cole becomes human by gaining the perspective necessary to understand reality. He is nothing like the demon Vengeance becomes.

If there is a lesson to be learned from the OC knowledge of Vengeance, it is that it isn't healthy for Spirit Cole to remain outside of the Fade as every day is a risk of him being broken by the greys that exist in the world.

[Hudporco]

I chose to get rid of him because he is a Demon.

You are quite well informed! pfff. He is a spirit of compassion, the suffering of a young apostate that was left to die in a dungeon by the templars drove him, for the young mage's pain was too strong. But even so, the spirit could not help the kid, he died. Once Compassion could not stand that situation, it turned into cole, the apostate, because it wanted to help. Solas explains that a spirit of compassion is very hard to find and also very fragile. So it turned into cole so it could help.
He is not a demon, he is a spirit who wanted to be human.

Never thought that i'd see prejudice happening to fictional character, that's a new. LOL

[Dieb]

I made him become a Spirit of Compassion again.

 

Honestly the decision was rather to not let him kill the Templar out of revenge. Vendetta is the silliest concept humanity ever came up with. If he really wanted to become something different, there are other ways to find it in you - confused fade being or not.

 

If revenge for revenge's sake is the gateway to humanity, then he's better off being a spirit.

 

 

P.S.: When in the end after seeing the man was obviously regretting his actions, he made the Templar forget what he had done to ease HIS pain, now that was grand. Well done making me feel good, Bioware.

[DracoAngel]

Human.

 

Only once did I ever make him more spirit(And I've done about 9-10 PTs now). And I immediately hated myself for it. I felt like I destroyed him and his nature. As a human he seemed to take actual joy from learning and being human, and he was still able to help people. As a spirit he seemed very cold and analytical. He didn't seem to take joy in helping people, it was just his duty to do so.

[Ranadiel Marius]

I made him become a Spirit of Compassion again.

Honestly the decision was rather to not let him kill the Templar out of revenge. Vendetta is the silliest concept humanity ever came up with. If he really wanted to become something different, there are other ways to find it in you - confused fade being or not.

If revenge for revenge's sake is the gateway to humanity, then he's better off being a spirit.


P.S.: When in the end after seeing the man was obviously regretting his actions, he made the Templar forget what he had done to ease HIS pain, now that was grand. Well done making me feel good, Bioware.

He doesn't kill the Templar if you make him human. Varric makes it clear that he wasn't going to let Cole do that.

[Dieb]

Should have had more trust in good old Varric. Here I was, baffled how he could change from what I was used to that much.

 

In my defense, this happened after I played the Grey Warden arc *coughs*

[Korva]

As a spirit he seemed very cold and analytical. He didn't seem to take joy in helping people, it was just his duty to do so.

 

How do you get that impression? He strikes me as calmer, more confident -- and definitely joyful at being able to hear and do more. Compassion isn't his duty, it's his nature ... and on the more-spirit path, that nature is reclaimed, affirmed and strengthened.

[Pasta]

As I said in another thread... here's my opinion on the quest. It's heavily based on my personal preference. 

 

Spoiler

Hmmm.... so far I have equal view on both paths. A bit of a lore & English noob here, but I'll try to say what  I think.

 

Spirit path will make him true to himself yes, his purpose of helping people and his purity as a spirit of compassion. Letting go of the real Cole seems the best way for him to focus on helping people... in Asunder, I may be wrong, but he doesn't know he was a spirit, hence why he wanted to become "real" and after knowing his true nature, it's best for him to stay that way.

 

This, is my opinion on the spirit path : he would be pure, and continue helping then make people forget, and that is what irks me. Personally I don't like it if a character stays "perfect" and "untainted", I like it when he goes human and experience all the flaws and negativity.

 

Human path.... this is a big leap of faith, I believe spirits can do many unique and extraordinary things, and personally I think this spirit of Compassion can become fully human--have the ability to. I agree that being human is not the "perfect" story for everything, but it's the flaw and hardship / hard path he took that makes him more special to me. I headcanon'd that if his main purpose was to help the real Cole... if there's any hope that the mage!Cole's dream can be fulfilled, it's to become like the current Cole--free and without magic. I imagined that the real Cole would be happy to see him "live" on like what he always wanted to be....

 

I trust Cole enough that he's become human, and negative emotions will not turn him into a demon. Also, something like this line of his : "Now I understand why some things I said to Cullen makes him uncomfortable," this I think will make him understand how to help more efficiently, because if he understands what the people feel and have experienced those feelings himself, he would know how to help without making them feel uncomfortable. Without being too intrusive.

 

Also when he says that people knew him now--that people know someone cared and wanted to help them, it could make them feel better too. All the memories of the real Cole and his backstory on Asunder caused him great pain, yes, but now he can feel what's it's like being healed himself. I would love for him to meet Rhys & Evangeline again in the future... it would bring me tears.

 

In tears right now.... T__T sorry he's just so special to me. He's such a beautiful character... /hugs him tightly T__T

 

It's... like a "nicer" version of Iron Bull's quest IMO. If you choose the Qunari alliance, IB will stay true to his roots--a Ben-Hassrath agent but with the Chargers sacrificed. If you choose the Chargers, IB will embrace "Iron Bull" and what he has become over time, with the alliance sacrificed and Tal-Vashoth-ry.

 

Now for Cole. I feel like if I choose the human path, I would "sacrifice" the Spirit of Compassion for the late Cole. But I know he still have his spirit-nature after becoming human. Choosing the spirit path would feel like "sacrificing" the late Cole's legacy... Can't always treat every being as humans (and by this I mean respecting their true nature), but it's the sentimentality and attachment I have for him that makes me view him as someone... a person... ajkdhjklawhdawjdlb I can't really express it well in English!

 

And him becoming human isn't just becoming human in ideology(?English), when he loses his ability to make people forget and his teleportation, to me I think that physically alters his being--literally becoming more human. This might be pure assumption, but if he has changed his own being, then there's no need to worry about him becoming a demon.

 

I like it when he experiences all those hardship. It added flavor and more character to him... new possibilities, and completely *unrelated* to my fanfic, more story value.

 

Everyone have different ways on how a companion feels like to them. I like reading people's different opinions on him. Helps me with my fanfic /teehee

[berelinde]

I've run a few different Inquisitors, and each of them has approached the question differently, but mostly, it comes down to how much they value their own humanity. Most of the mages thought it was better for Cole to become more spirit-like and most of the non-mages thought he'd do better with a more mortal mindset.

 

There are two scenes that kind of give a glimpse of what life will be like for Cole afterward. In Val Royeaux, spirit!Cole is happy and at peace, reveling in his ability to help people anonymously... but he kind of has a meltdown at the final banquet. I sighed and wondered how long his tender spirit could endure the mortal world. In Val Royeaux, human!Cole is unhappy, struggling to remain positive and see the benefits of an uncomfortable situation... but at the final banquet, he seems to be a lot happier, as if he's satisfied with his progress.

 

So yeah, no easy answers here.

[Korva]

There are two scenes that kind of give a glimpse of what life will be like for Cole afterward. In Val Royeaux, spirit!Cole is happy and at peace, reveling in his ability to help people anonymously... but he kind of has a meltdown at the final banquet. I sighed and wondered how long his tender spirit could endure the mortal world.

 

Do you mean after the Well of Sorrows? At the banquet, both "sides" of him are definitely happy, and you can learn that more-a-spirit-Cole 1) has come to understand that some hurts are meaningful to people, and 2) even shows a first glimpse of grasping humor. I wish Varric could have heard that, he'd be so proud.

 

After the Well, yeah ... that scene is not good. It honestly feels as if it was intended for people who didn't do his quest and never really cared for him, not for the spirit path. I have no real issue with Cole's reaction, but the Inquisitor's reaction is total BS because there's no way mine would walk off with that "whatever, weirdo" look and not give a f*ck that her dearest friend beside Cassandra is clearly not well. We should have the option to be there for him no matter what and make sure he knows it, just like on the more-human path, because as it is, the scene is just unfair and character-breaking.

 

As Dana said, and as I have said myself on various threads, helping Cole reclaim his nature has, at its heart, the realization that being human is not "better" just because we are humans and thus biased to think it is. Different does not mean inferior. Choosing to support Cole on this path can (not must, just as making him more human does not necessarily imply a humanity-is-superior bias, but definitely can) imply a willingness to open one's mind, think more deeply, learn more, meet this amazing creature halfway even if that can be difficult, instead of letting him do all the work and all the changing. An Inquisitor who does all that for him and truly loves him as he is would never just leave him alone like that.

 

The dinner cutscene for the spirit path plays into that implication, with Cole's joy and gratitude for the fact that you believe in him and "let me be this, be more". It's a shame they dropped the ball about carrying the same attitude over into the post-Well cutscene.

[JumboWheat01]

I prefer Human Cole myself.  It just feels like such a better idea, to let him feel what it is like.  Plus I get to stick it to Solas.  We rarely agree on things.

[songsmith2003]

I've done both (stayed as spirit the second time around). After witnessing him "forgetting" himself I will never make him go the spirit route again. It depressed me far too much, especially the unemotional, robotic voice afterwards.

 

He should be in on the Wicked Grace game if you do. That would be awesome.

[Anvos]

Personally I prefer humanized Cole as in that case he is something interesting that is the direct refute to Solas' claim that spirits can't be more than their nature or learn to understand the world.

 

Also I find spirit Cole is closer to a neutral/transitionary fade creature (similar to Vengence) of Meddling than a spirit of Compassion, plus he seems oblivious to the fact that influencing people over minor things could cause far more harm than good when it involves multiple people.

[Korva]

@songsmith2003: He is in the Wicked Grace game no matter what path you choose. As I have said before, it's a tad unfair to judge the more-spirit path by one uncomfortable moment ... but not do the same to the more-human path, which has its share of uncomfortable moments, too. If the writers hadn't so utterly dropped the ball on the post-Well scene by having the Inquisitor run off like a tool instead of showing any concern, support or understanding, I'd have no issue with it at all. Overall I find the more-spirit path not depressive at all but incredibly touching.

 

@Anvos: How can Cole be less compassionate when he fully embraces his nature, which is compassion? That is the entire point of that path.

 

I appreciate both sides of the character, though my own preference is very clear, and I just find it ... odd how many people seem to all but bash Solas' solution in what I feel are some rather unfair ways. Yes, it is harder to understand and relate to this version of Cole, but that is what makes it both an interesting challenge and a unique opportunity.