238 réponses à ce sujet

[Elista]

Both paths are interesting. I chose spirit the first time and it was really nice to see him become a full spirit of compassion, helping people with enthusiasm. I chose human the second time, and loved the idea that he was becoming something unique, a spirit able to grow and have more complex insights. As it has already been said, there is not a "best" choice.

[myahele]

I chose spirit route. I have a feeling that making him human will end up leading to more human emotions/ thoughts which could eventually be problematic. What's to stop him to want to be appreciated for his actions? With complex thoughts come complex actions to help people.

 

Atleast as a spirit he's simple in the way to help people: appear, make a suggestion or give them something (food if starving) and then leave

[Mocksie]

My first playthrough, I made him more spirit both because Solas told me so, and he seemed like a higher authority on spirits than Varric, and because I felt like it would be safer for him and me in the long run if the amulet was ensured to work. It seemed like the "good" option at the time.

 

In my second playthrough, I made him human, and I actually think I like that option better. I think in the long run, he is happier that way, and even though the amulet doesn't work, I think he is safer as a human than as a spirit for multiple reasons.

 

I never read Asunder, but based on dialogue with him about his past, when he was "more spirit-like" (i.e. when he first came through the fade) he was dangerous, and didn't understand what he was or what he was doing, which resulted in him killing innocent people. Rhys and Evangeline helped him realize that that was wrong, which made him a bit more human. Making him more spirit like again removes that bit of humanity that he gained, and I think risks him becoming what he was during his time at the Circle. It also puts him at higher risk of turning into a demon.

 

Cole pretty much can never return to the Fade, I believe that is stated somewhere in game. Since he is forever stuck in the real world, then it seems like it would be better for him, and safer for everyone around him if he becomes a human. Plus, the scene where you go to the cafe with him as a human is just so incredibly sweet, he seems so happy to understand more emotions than just the one he stands for and to be able to be seen and recognized by people as a human.

 

So yeah, human>spirit. My canon playthrough will definitely have him as human. 

[mbeckham]

Why is being human automatically a good thing all of a sudden?

i'd make him a dwarf but that doesn't appear to be an option.  

[highcastle]

 

 

EDIT: Another point shown by choosing 'spirit' is that his humanity was coming from being anchored to the templar;s guilt, so his anger tethered him. As a human, he'd need to constantly be angry, or at least resentful, to keep that tether. And if - when - the templar died, wouldn't that guild be gone and he'd lose his tether and revert anyway?

 

I agree Cole is an awesome character. He's fighting for top spot with Dorian.

 

Not sure where you're getting that. Varric stresses that Cole needs to get over his anger just as Solas does. The difference is that Varric doesn't insist that Cole forgive the templar who "killed" him. Varric also stresses that vengeance isn't the answer, a point he makes both verbally and by preventing Cole from murdering the templar.

 

There's an important distinction in the way Cole's personal quest resolves, and that's how one gets over anger. No one says Cole should be tethered by his rage. Instead, Varric says that people can't always forgive one another. Sometimes--if the wound is too deep or the action against someone too violent or disturbing--it can't be forgiven. But dwelling on it and letting it fester aren't solutions either. It can't be forgotten, but it can be overcome. That's another path in the healing process, one many victims of abuse often learn. Forgiving an abuser isn't always an option, especially a healthy one. Endless anger offers problems, too. So you find a middle ground.

 

Personally, I love Cole on the human path. He's easily my favorite character in the game, in large part due to his complexity. And I think the situation is a little more nuanced than you initially suggest.

[Eyes_Only]

I made him a spirit once, and more mortal the second time I played. Honestly I liked him better as a spirit.

[AlexiaRevan]

He is a spirit , So he stay a Spirit . And Varric shouldn't meddle in this.....at all . 

[Korva]

I never read Asunder, but based on dialogue with him about his past, when he was "more spirit-like" (i.e. when he first came through the fade) he was dangerous, and didn't understand what he was or what he was doing, which resulted in him killing innocent people.

 

He wasn't more spirit-like then but a confused and broken thing that didn't even know what he was because he'd all but lost his nature. The more of it he regains, the more he grows unlike what he was then.

 

At any rate, while making him more human would prevent him from breaking into a demon and being controlled by blood magic like a spirit can be, that doesn't mean he's safe. Humans can be messed up with blood magic, too, not to mention that we're easily corrupted by our own baser impulses. That is one of the game's big themes, after all: so many once-noble people, causes and organizations twisted beyond recognition. For Cole, both sides of himself bring strengths and weaknesses. That is part of what makes his story, and this choice, so compelling IMO.

 

Cole pretty much can never return to the Fade, I believe that is stated somewhere in game.

 

If you make him more spirit-like, he can, but he chooses to stay. Solas asks about it in a banter, and Cole also mentions it after the final battle.

 

There's an important distinction in the way Cole's personal quest resolves, and that's how one gets over anger. No one says Cole should be tethered by his rage. Instead, Varric says that people can't always forgive one another. Sometimes--if the wound is too deep or the action against someone too violent or disturbing--it can't be forgiven. But dwelling on it and letting it fester aren't solutions either. It can't be forgotten, but it can be overcome. That's another path in the healing process, one many victims of abuse often learn. Forgiving an abuser isn't always an option, especially a healthy one.

 

Yes, as much as I absolutely love the spirit-path resolution of Cole's mission because it's the most moving moment in the game for me (along with the entirety of In Your Heart Shall Burn) and I think it's awe-inspiring and beauitful that such a thing in possible ... it should never be wielded as a club of how things should be for everyone. Each survivor has their own way to healing.

 

Cole can let go without reservation because he is Compassion and that man is riddled with guilt and shame. "My pain was his pain." Shared pain, shared healing, connected on a level that simply wouldn't exist between people because we don't perceive the world as a spirit does. That doesn't make him superior, just different.

 

I like how human and believable Dorian's feelings and reactions to the abuse and betrayal he suffered are. It makes for a good and equally valid contrast to more-spirit Cole's reaction. (Cole's more-human reactions are also very well-written and believable, but they don't provide that contrast in one game-state because both paths can't co-exist.)

[Nykara]

I love Cole. As adorable as the human path seems to be I could never make him human though because it's not what he is or is supposed to be.

[songsmith2003]

@songsmith2003: He is in the Wicked Grace game no matter what path you choose. As I have said before, it's a tad unfair to judge the more-spirit path by one uncomfortable moment ... but not do the same to the more-human path, which has its share of uncomfortable moments, too. If the writers hadn't so utterly dropped the ball on the post-Well scene by having the Inquisitor run off like a tool instead of showing any concern, support or understanding, I'd have no issue with it at all. Overall I find the more-spirit path not depressive at all but incredibly touching.

 

@Anvos: How can Cole be less compassionate when he fully embraces his nature, which is compassion? That is the entire point of that path.

 

I appreciate both sides of the character, though my own preference is very clear, and I just find it ... odd how many people seem to all but bash Solas' solution in what I feel are some rather unfair ways. Yes, it is harder to understand and relate to this version of Cole, but that is what makes it both an interesting challenge and a unique opportunity.

 

  Yes, I remembered that after I wrote it. His rabbits comment was adorable. I don't know how I forgot other than at the time I was thinking of his mind-reading capabilities and card games. I'd love to see someone teaching him about why reading people's minds at that point is cheating. Anyway, I judge the spirit decision not because it was uncomfortable but because it felt like my inquisitor had destroyed the Cole she had come to know. Yes, Spirit Cole was happy to be helping people, but so was Human Cole. (Also, please remind me about the post-Well scene? Is that when the conversation we're talking about takes place? I admit I was more bothered that Compassion Spirit Cole didn't notice my elven Inquisitor's grief and shock and betrayal over what Solas' had done in their relationship.)

[TracyJackson]

Well, none for me. For some dumb reason, he left my Inquisition team after the fall of Adamant....guess I picked one "Greatly Disapproves" too many.

[snackrat]

As more time goes on, the more I think Spirit is the better option - in my opinion, anyway.

 

My main reason for opposing spirit was him forgetting about IRL Cole, but that's what we tell people in mourning to do. You carry on. Some will even say "forget them and move on". As a spirit that path is different, but something else he has 'forgotten' it is clear he is aware of the memory once existing. It would be less "who is Cole?" and more "yeah there was a Cole and I took his name, but I can't quite remember why."

 

My main reasoning for supporting human was about involving him with the group, but then I realised that would never be successful. He doesn't learn social rules automatically like most normal people do. He has to learn by trial or error, or have people tell him. As an autistic person I can tell you that is not something you'd want to wish on anyone, because people hate you, HATE YOU, if you do not automatically follow their made-up social rules, and ignorance is no excuse. And what support does medieval Thedas have for autism and other atypical mental disorders? Even 'til the day he was eighty (assuming he ages, since he's emulating a particular person from a particular point in time) he would still be outside, looking in.

 

Being fully human seemed like a goal he could never fully achieve, and he was really damn miserable about it because it hurt all the time. I think it is MUCH better for both him, and the people around him, to help him regain purity as Compassion.

IRL Cole is probably too busy being dead to care that someone is pretending to be him in his name, and even if he was observing from an afterlife, he specifically wanted to change his own past, not have someone else recreate his future.

 

 

 

This is assuming there wasn't a safe way to keep "Colpassion" instead of making him either Human Cole or Spirit Compassion, since that seems to be waaaay less miserable. But even if I don't take him to the final battle, he's still afraid of the prospect of binding, so I don't see Colpassion as an option.

Oh and that templar? Apparently his humanity is ANCHORED by that man's guilt. What about when HE dies, and the tether isn't there anymore? Would Cole lose that tether, return to Compassion, stunted after sixty years of feeble humanity? Would he hate himself for not helping people because he was so focused on emulating someone long gone?

[Pasta]

He still does help people after becoming human, only that in the human path, he started off as ineffective but eventually gets better because if he's helping the mortals, relating to their emotions and experiencing them himself would make him understand the ones he's been helping better. He still carries out his purpose of Compassion--helping people. 

 

To which I am very, very grateful to Varric for being there for him. To help him understand and teach him the things he needed to know. I'm pretty sure some of the mortals he helped who remembered him (now that he's human) would accept him, and he would start gaining friends. Friends that will be there for him and care and help him in return. The humans that view him as their own.

 

All the hurt he's experiencing is how it is healing. It's much easier to return to his roots as a spirit and let go of them, but personally, I think by coming out on top from all the hurt, being stronger by it, offers a more permanent recovery.

 

And.. this is lingering in my head, but here goes : if he was truly, purely a spirit of Compassion, wouldn't he be all about helping people, without the ability of being swayed by fear and other emotions? If he was pure, the binding would work without a stumble on him. [".... turning to a demon if his effort to help people are in vain"](sth like that,)--so if spirits who were overcame with those darker emotions becomes demons, does that make them human, essentially? Because if they're able to feel those emotions in the first place, would that make them human? Is Varric wrong? If so, why hasn't all the hurt and [ I want to hit people alot now ] haven't turned him to a demon?

 

And correct me if I'm wrong... the amulet only prevents spirits from binding and blood magic. What if this spirit of Compassion, say, 500 years later came across someone whose suffering is very strong, then take the [ if his effort to help people are in vain ] again, would those emotions turn him to a demon? Without an expert like Solas, nothing's stopping him from becoming a demon on his own. And Solas made Cole forget about him in the endgame. (If it's not a complete memory erase and Cole still remembers who Solas is, the fact that Solas is missing would pose several questions, no? Esp. if in the future the Inky searched for Solas ++ bringing Cole along)

 

My God all this complication and lore is making my head explode.. still, good for my fanfic. Cole I U   /dies

[BraveVesperia]

And.. this is lingering in my head, but here goes : if he was truly, purely a spirit of Compassion, wouldn't he be all about helping people, without the ability of being swayed by fear and other emotions? If he was pure, the binding would work without a stumble on him. [".... turning to a demon if his effort to help people are in vain"](sth like that,)--so if spirits who were overcame with those darker emotions becomes demons, does that make them human, essentially? Because if they're able to feel those emotions in the first place, would that make them human? Is Varric wrong? If so, why hasn't all the hurt and [ I want to hit people alot now ] haven't turned him to a demon?

He definitely seems to be more human than any other spirit we've come across. Justice had access to the memories (including emotions) of a human, but seemed to stuggle a lot to understand them. I imagine it has something to do with the fact that Justice embodied a more abstract concept which isn't as closely related to human emotion. So he didn't need to understand it as much. Whereas empathy is a huge part of Cole and compassion. After all, when he becomes more human, he's just bringing out a part of himself that was already there.

 

Maybe that's why he was also able to take the original Cole's form, because he already had a greater understanding of mortals and mortal emotions. Plus, if he was outside the Fade for a long time, he would have the opportunity to observe people in something other than dreams.

 

And correct me if I'm wrong... the amulet only prevents spirits from binding and blood magic. What if this spirit of Compassion, say, 500 years later came across someone whose suffering is very strong, then take the [ if his effort to help people are in vain ] again, would those emotions turn him to a demon? Without an expert like Solas, nothing's stopping him from becoming a demon on his own. And Solas made Cole forget about him in the endgame. (If it's not a complete memory erase and Cole still remembers who Solas is, the fact that Solas is missing would pose several questions, no? Esp. if in the future the Inky searched for Solas ++ bringing Cole along)

 

My God all this complication and lore is making my head explode.. still, good for my fanfic. Cole I U /dies

That's why I hope that spirit-Cole does go back to the Fade at some point. I don't feel like it would be safe for him to stay in the mortal world indefinitely.

 

I assumed that Cole reached out to Solas, who then blocked off his mind from Cole. Then made him forget it had happened. It's too bad we can't ask him about it afterwards. I'm definitely bringing Cole on the 'Wolf Hunt' too. The memory wipe thing, plus Cole's natural insight, plus them being friends means it's bound to be an interesting experience!

[mopotter]

Because he was a bit too stab happy in Dragon Age Asunder.

So people have reservations with due cause.

I liked him in Asunder, and was very happy with the way it ended.  Go Cole.  Favorite book of all.  

 

Have only played twice and both times I ended up making him more human.  I keep thinking I'll go with the spirit Cole eventually, but I really like him as human.  

[Korva]

Good to see the recent burst of activity on this thread. Cole definitely gets a lot less attention that other characters, especially the "love interests", and that's a bit sad.

 

Things could potentially turn out very badly for Cole no matter which side of him becomes dominant, but I actually think there is a lot of strength and (will)power in that unassuming little guy, so I don't worry too much (plus, the bad stuff would be depressing to dwell on).

 

Sure, he was deeply wounded by the real Cole's horrible death, his own failure to save him, and the loss of his only friend Rhys. Being treated with suspicion, fear or anger probably doesn't help either -- it might fuel the "spirit or demon?" worry he displays in some early banters. But he survived all that, and he deals with all that ... not without scars, not always well, but he never gives up and never stops caring and helping and giving. And he does all that while existing in an alien world with alien rules. Not to mention the fact that creating a fully human body for himself is something that even educated mages didn't think was possible.

 

He's tougher than he looks, tougher than his gentle and guileless nature might lead one to believe. And during the course of the game, he finds new, true friends who accept him, support him and care for him. Being on the receiving end of emotions that reflect his own nature is bound to aid with his healing and his growing confidence, both for the side of him that is human and the side that is Compassion.

 

Regarding being broken again by "failure", especially if be comes more spirit-like: Possible, but unlikely I think. He has experienced many people dying around him and under his own hands ... or even at his own hands, when death is inevitable and all he can do is to end the pain faster. He can get deeply upset over suffering at times, like when you discover that the oculara are made from Tranquil skulls, but at other times he simply does what he can and seems to quietly if a bit sadly move on afterwards.

 

Regarding Solas making him forget: I think someone said the writer clarified that Solas made him forget only what Cole glimpsed of his whereabouts and plans. (I suppose Solas also made sure to hide his mind better, afterwards.) Making Cole forget Solas altogether would be pointless, since Cole remains surrounded by people who knew Solas and who are bound to talk about him, miss him, and plan to look for him. All it'd take is a word about Solas within earshot, or a spark of Solas-related pain anywhere near our raw nerve of compassion, and Cole would be aware of his existence again.

[Vicious]

i left him as a spirit. I thought it was for the best, he never really understood what being alive was like and beginning to learn in the body of an already grown young man probably isn't the best way to start.

[Anvos]

Having finished my spirit cole play through completely I'm now also worried about the fact that he's essentially refusing to leave even though he can, as that seems to be the attitude lots of demons have that they don't want to leave.

[Korva]

His rabbits comment was adorable. I don't know how I forgot other than at the time I was thinking of his mind-reading capabilities and card games. I'd love to see someone teaching him about why reading people's minds at that point is cheating.

 

I really want to know the full story my Inquisitor told! She's a human warrior, so I have to wonder just how she apparently ruined an opera performance for her aunt, and how the rabbit figured into it.

 

Cole and card games is an interesting question. Varric likely has a "Happy thoughts, people. Relax for a bit, and let the kid relax too," policy for this sort of gathering, to reduce the odds of Cole getting tangled up in something private. I think Cole is in it for the company and the stories and the positive emotions flowing all around him, and the others probably go easy on him because he keeps getting distracted by his unique perceptions and doesn't really understand "betting" (or carry money, for that matter). If he becomes more human, he can likely get a better grasp on it all, and since he doesn't hear others as much anymore, the "cheating" would be less of an issue. With more-spirit Cole, I imagine him ignoring his cards a lot and just happily soaking in the "feel" of it all like a hot bath.

 

Anyway, I judge the spirit decision not because it was uncomfortable but because it felt like my inquisitor had destroyed the Cole she had come to know. Yes, Spirit Cole was happy to be helping people, but so was Human Cole. (Also, please remind me about the post-Well scene? Is that when the conversation we're talking about takes place?

 

That is the one. It would be fine in my book if the Inquisitor stayed and showed some support and understanding. My interpretation of what Cole is doing is that he's essentially forgiving himself for his "failure", like he forgave the former templar earlier. He is in extreme distress ... and then, like with the templar, he essentially says yes, this hurts, it hurts terribly, but you don't have to bear it anymore, you can let it go. His "Forget" is such a soft and gentle feather touch, and this time that kindness is aimed at himself for once. Liberation, not destruction.

 

He does sound a bit odd afterwards, and that is where the Inquisitor's concern and support should come in, even if that'd just mean saying "I'm here for you" and keeping a quiet watch over him. I think the real Cole's death and his own identification with that poor young man had such a deep impact that letting go of that and feeling where and who he is now that he's allowed himself to be "only" and wholly himself may take a bit to sink in. And maybe there's some heaviness or melancholy left from it all, too.

 

I admit I was more bothered that Compassion Spirit Cole didn't notice my elven Inquisitor's grief and shock and betrayal over what Solas' had done in their relationship.)

 

As I keep preaching like a broken record, Bioware really need to get over their mind-boggling refusal to stop writing protagonist/companion bonds in which we only exist to give interest and support but don't get any of it back. Sure, I'm touched when the companions express admiration, loyalty and gratitude for me ... but I still feel utterly left out of all the true, mutually caring and curious interactions the companions have with each other. Cole is the biggest example of how painfully unsatisfying and nonsensical that is, especially if you make him more spirit-like and his empathy skyrockets right into orbit ... around and for everyone but us.

[Korva]

Apologies for the double post, it would've been a bit long otherwise.

 

As an autistic person I can tell you that is not something you'd want to wish on anyone, because people hate you, HATE YOU, if you do not automatically follow their made-up social rules, and ignorance is no excuse.

 

I'm sorry you have to deal with that bullsh*t. It's something I can empathize with from experience with other issues -- it's undeniable that many people can be horribly cruel to anyone who is "different", especially if that goes hand in hand with less social savviness or "status". And society as a whole often excuses it. Add a fantasy world with zero resources for people who are (or seem to be) mentally ill or neuroatypical AND where the fear of demonic possession and magical mind control has a bitter basis in reality, and I agree that the situation for people who "act odd" could likely get very dire very quickly.

 

Being fully human seemed like a goal he could never fully achieve, and he was really damn miserable about it because it hurt all the time.

 

He does get better, and more confident ... but yes, I found the immediate aftermath of the human-path choice very painful to watch. Cole is such a gentle creature that he's pretty much the last person ever who should have to learn "how to be human" through hurt and shock.

 

IRL Cole is probably too busy being dead to care that someone is pretending to be him in his name, and even if he was observing from an afterlife, he specifically wanted to change his own past, not have someone else recreate his future.

 

Agreed. Some might say real-Cole would like to be remembered and not deliberately forgotten, others might say he would not want the being who comforted him in his final moments to suffer from remembering. Either way, I think what he would want shouldn't really matter because it's not a good idea to live for or as someone else. It's healthier for "our" Cole to step away from that extremely close identification with the poor guy. He is a person in his own right, and that person deserves to be free of that pain if he can't bear it anymore ... even if that means forgetting. (I'm using "person" as a term for "any sentient, self-aware being" and not Varric's far more narrow "human(oid)s only".)

 

This is assuming there wasn't a safe way to keep "Colpassion" instead of making him either Human Cole or Spirit Compassion, since that seems to be waaaay less miserable. But even if I don't take him to the final battle, he's still afraid of the prospect of binding, so I don't see Colpassion as an option.

 

Apparently if you don't do his quest and then talk to him after the final battle, he says he's not afraid of anyone else binding him because no one else has the power and he's too strong. That's ... reassuring and I like the confidence in himself, but it's totally out of the question for me to abandon him to the despair and panic he feels after Adamant. It would be beyond cruel to refuse his plea for help, especially seeing how he gives so much and asks for so little.

 

Oh and that templar? Apparently his humanity is ANCHORED by that man's guilt. What about when HE dies, and the tether isn't there anymore?

 

Hmm. I don't think that "old chain" which "falls" if you choose the more-a-spirit-path is tied to his humanity. The actual "supernatural" link between them and their pain points more at Cole's spirit nature I think? But as with all things related to the Fade and spirits, it may also be more complicated than that.

[Fireheart]

I was a little confused during this quest. What is binding, exactly? It sounded like he was afraid of being controlled by Corypheus but then he told my Inquisitor that someone should bind me too, and I got really confused. How could Corypheus bind Cole? I was also wondering why Cory would even bother. Anyway, I chose to make him more spirit like because I like spirits (I miss Justice ) and humans suck.

[leadintea]

Human Cole, all the time. I've tried Spirit Cole twice, but he was just too creepy and unsettling for me. Human Cole is much more adorable and seems much more like his previous self than Spirit Cole which was a huge change from what he was several moments ago.

[Korva]

I was a little confused during this quest. What is binding, exactly? It sounded like he was afraid of being controlled by Corypheus but then he told my Inquisitor that someone should bind me too, and I got really confused. How could Corypheus bind Cole?

 

Blood magic. It can force spirits or demons into obedience, and if a spirit is made to act against its nature it can be broken into a demon. Remember Solas' personal mission and how those f*ckwit mages turned his spirit-of-wisdom friend into a pride demon? That is exactly what Cole fears, someone turning him into a monster. He's much less concerned about losing his free will and possibly even his personality than he is about hurting other people. Since he trusts Solas not to make him hurt innocents, he thinks being bound by Solas would prevent other mages from messing with him, and thus keep people safe from what said other mages would make him do.

 

The Grey Wardens at Adamant create their demon army through binding, too ... and in turn end up bound to Corypheus themselves, since mortals can be messed with via blood magic as well.

[BraveVesperia]

I was a little confused during this quest. What is binding, exactly? It sounded like he was afraid of being controlled by Corypheus but then he told my Inquisitor that someone should bind me too, and I got really confused. How could Corypheus bind Cole? I was also wondering why Cory would even bother. Anyway, I chose to make him more spirit like because I like spirits (I miss Justice ) and humans suck.

Binding would allow an enemy mage to completely mind control Cole (or any spirit). Since Coryfish is low on allies by the end and the Inquisitor only brings three people to the final fight, I imagine he'd try to bind Cole to even the playing field a little. Prior to that, it would be for the demon army he was trying to build.

 

I miss Justice too. I'll be forever peeved about what happened to him in DA2.

[MiyuEmi]

@BraveVesperia:  Yes, I was upset about Justice's fate too as Anders was kind of 'destroyed' from Awakenings to DA2, and he therefore destroyed Justice.  Was a shame, so I was glad they didn't do this to Cole as well.  Spoiler below, but the hide spoiler text doesn't seem be to be working for me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

He does try to bind Cole but if you've done his personal quest, he's unable.  I've never not done his personal quest, so I don't know if it's something Corypheus is capable of doing.